Air Canada heading down the wrong road ( once again ) ?

[duranium]

The folowing will not be new to any well informed Air Canada employee and there seems to be multitudes here but here goes

Our National airline has purchased brand spanking new 777 that will be put into service this coming July on their bread and butter runs, that is Toronto-London, England and Montreal-Paris. But guess what folks? they have decided to treat their customers as so many sardines. In Economy, the seating is changed from 3-3-3 to 3-4-3 AND with way less space as before. The 3-3-3 numbers are 46.99cm/18.5 inch for width, 81.28cm/32inch for pitch ( ei: from your seat cushion to the next seat back in front of you) and 12.7cm/5 inch for recline. NOW, the new numbers: 43.2cm/17in for width (1.5 inches less), 78.7cm/31 inches in pitch ( minus 1 inch ) and 15.2cm/6 inches ( plus 1 inch ) in recline. Also, if you refer to AC's web site, the new seating 777 will have only 4 lavs for 400 pax in economy vs the 8 lavs now for 309 warm bodies in steerage. One will have to buy a ticket to use the washroom on one of those flights

Now for an example of price. AC charges 1160.00 give or take a few bucks for a return economy seat on the Montreal-Paris run but Air France charges 680.00 Euros for the same trip, converted to dollars at 1.32 euros that comes out to more or less 900.00 canadian pesos. Toronto London with BA is similar in exercise.

I, myself do travel a lot between Toronto, Montreal, Paris and London and am a frequent flyer. Guess what. I figure AC does not need the cash from frequent flyers for what they are now charging. This is not Rouge folks, this is your mainline.

If AC thinks they will get away with treating their full fare customers as so many sardines all the while trying to bleed them so as to trow big money at certain segments of their employee pool who, by the nature of their work, do not, by any stretch of the imagination, deserve it, they are, in this reader's opinion, sorely mistaking. Time will tell but the consumer usually does his talking with his wallet.

[MRP]

Not that I agree with any of it, but the current Air France 777 seat config is basically the same in economy as what the new AC config will be. 3-4-3 sardines etc. Basically according to C.R., Air Canada is going to do this because everyone else already is...

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Fr ... -300_D.php

[MRP]

Also, if you refer to AC's web site, the new seating 777 will have only 4 lavs for 400 pax in economy vs the 8 lavs now for 309 warm bodies in steerage. One will have to buy a ticket to use the washroom on one of those flights

The AC website only shows the areas the lavs are located in, not the number of lavs in each area. Economy will have 6 lavs, premium economy will have 2 and business/first will have 1. The old config is economy with 8 lavs and business/first with 3. However you are correct in that more people are sharing less lavs throughout the aircraft. At least it isn't like the old days when the movie on the big screen ended you had a 20min lineup for the lavs!!!

[ZBBYLW]

One thing to keep in mind about the seat pitch though is due to new seat design you actually gain leg room. With the thin back seats the actual leg room can be increased even though seat pitch is reduced.

To understand it I will make numbers up.

Current seats are 3 inches thick. New seats are 1 inch thick. If you reduce the seat pitch by 1 inch you are still left with an overall real increase in leg room by 1 inch.

Hopefully the thin back seats are comfortable for 13+hour flights though.

[bmc]

Now for an example of price. AC charges 1160.00 give or take a few bucks for a return economy seat on the Montreal-Paris run but Air France charges 680.00 Euros for the same trip, converted to dollars at 1.32 euros that comes out to more or less 900.00 canadian pesos. Toronto London with BA is similar in exercise.

Apples to oranges. You can't compare the Montreal - Paris to Paris Montreal. Two different markets. Different seasonalities, buying behaviour. Paris, to AC is the end destination. Paris is a fortress hub for AF with six banks per day providing online connections to 35 domestic and 65 intl destinations. They have the benefit on long haul flow which gives higher end to end revenue that a Paris-Montreal sector. They have the luxury of making AC look bad. AC doesn't have the connection opportunities being a Star Alliance airline flying into a Skyteam hub.

If AC thinks they will get away with treating their full fare customers as so many sardines all the while trying to bleed them so as to trow big money at certain segments of their employee pool who, by the nature of their work, do not, by any stretch of the imagination, deserve it, they are, in this reader's opinion, sorely mistaking. Time will tell but the consumer usually does his talking with his wallet.

AF offers a better economy product that AC, regardless of pitch. Regardless, AC knows the demand for 2013. I would be far more upset knowing they were leaving revenue opportunities to others than to not seize the opportunity. Multiple surveys of high yield passengers shows that carrier selection criteria lists FFP program, network, schedule and price (in that order) as drivers. Seat pitch or comfort never floats to the top. As a frequent long haul traveller, a flatbed is my number one criteria. AC has an excellent long haul business class product. I haven't tried it. Yet.

[Genetk44]

Quite frankly I have found Air Canada seats, especially on the Airbus flights to be far too thin to be comfortable for anything longer than 2-3 hours. And their lie-flat seat pods in Business-First are the worst I have ever experienced, so much so that I avoid them like the plague.

[ikarus]

Current seats are 3 inches thick. New seats are 1 inch thick. If you reduce the seat pitch by 1 inch you are still left with an overall real increase in leg room by 1 inch.

Hopefully the thin back seats are comfortable for 13+hour flights though.

True, true...but COMFORT has a price tag, and I doubt that 1 inch seats will be both cheap to AC and comfortable to customers

Bottom line is, as long as people keep coming back to Walmart, things are going to continue to get cheaper! And I don't mean it in terms of cost

[duranium]

AF offers a better economy product that AC, regardless of pitch. Regardless, AC knows the demand for 2013. I would be far more upset knowing they were leaving revenue opportunities to others than to not seize the opportunity. Multiple surveys of high yield passengers shows that carrier selection criteria lists FFP program, network, schedule and price (in that order) as drivers. Seat pitch or comfort never floats to the top. As a frequent long haul traveller, a flatbed is my number one criteria. AC has an excellent long haul business class product. I haven't tried it. Yet.

Let's have a look at those FF drivers. AC suffers from too many middle managers that are not worth their salt and here is the best example of sheer decisional stupidity. Aeroplan frequent flyer priviliges are chosen at the beginning of the calendar year for those who have attained the required qualifying status mileage and these priviliges become effective the first day of March. A certain AC manager who shall remain nameless had the brillant idea to restrict access to the Maple Leaf lounges to those Aeroplan members IN POSSESSION of the Air Canada Maple Leaf Club access card, same manager knowing that the invitation from Aeroplan to select the current year's priviliges was sent out at the beginning of March. The access card is issued between 6 to 8 weeks after the priviliges are selected but the customer's priviliges selection are readily available in AC's computer, in association the the Aeroplan member's number, one just has to swipe the Aeroplan card when entering the Maple Leaf lounge area. So,the ensuing storm from cardless members reached the size of a small tsunamy but the edict stood, depriving a majority of a perk that was paid for but not delivered, I know because I am one of them and a frequent long haul and very long haul customer.

Now for price. One of the first things one learns in business is the accute validity of the following: build a better mouse trap and they will break down your door to buy it. In this case, AC has the better mouse trap with their current seating arrangement but if CR goes ahead with this decision, their mouse trap equals the competition's, so price will become more of a very big factor in the consumer decision. The consumer and specially the frequent flyer wants a bang for the buck, not the other way around and reading CR's comment of '' the competiton is doing it so we will do the same '' holds as much water as a wet paper bag, hence my choice of words in the header subject ( wrong road ).

In a nutsheel, AC has superior front line employees, a very good schedule, a top of the line network but suffers from internal rot, namely too many superiorly incompetent middle managers that too often negate any effort to get the airline to rise above the competition. This from a customer who spends a great deal of time flying and contributing to your bottom line.

[bmc]

namely too many superiorly incompetent middle managers that too often negate any effort to get the airline to rise above the competition. This from a customer who spends a great deal of time flying and contributing to your bottom line.

Sounds a little too bitter with management. Did you get the heave ho? Not many frequent travelers know management by name.

You have to also recognize that Canadian consumers want value, and by that I mean the cheapest price. If you are not competitive, they walk. If an airline is flying a brand spankin new B777-300, someone has to somehow pay for it. I'm sure AC is optimizing the utilization and getting 14 hours a day out of it. But if you're seing yield erosion due to competition under pricing you, the next step is to increase capacity.

I disagree on the incompetent management swipe. There are a lot of good people at AC.

[DH772]

If you dont like the new config then pay for first class. Every other carrier has a high density seating. You ever fly on wj or transat lately?? So why the big fuss now?

AC is a business. What makes you think they would lower their ticket price by 200 dollars after they add more seats? To make consumers happier by giving them further savings?? This is a business!!! Simple as that. Why charge someone $900 when they'll pay $1100. Not to mention you're comparing apples to oranges with regards to AF, as someone mentioned earlier.

Ppl think they deserve the world. Once something becomes the norm we always expect more. Rant over

[duranium]

namely too many superiorly incompetent middle managers that too often negate any effort to get the airline to rise above the competition. This from a customer who spends a great deal of time flying and contributing to your bottom line.

Sounds a little too bitter with management. Did you get the heave ho? Not many frequent travelers know management by name.

You have to also recognize that Canadian consumers want value, and by that I mean the cheapest price. If you are not competitive, they walk. If an airline is flying a brand spankin new B777-300, someone has to somehow pay for it. I'm sure AC is optimizing the utilization and getting 14 hours a day out of it. But if you're seing yield erosion due to competition under pricing you, the next step is to increase capacity.

I disagree on the incompetent management swipe. There are a lot of good people at AC.

Without devulging the where and when of my sources, let me tell you that when a front line employee has been asked umpteen times why one is refused access, those front line employees start to offer information to the who, where and why questions, free of charge and often write it down themselves with the biggest of smiles.

And contrary to your supposition I am nt and never was an AC manager but it is easier than you would expect or even dream of to obtain information at your company. As for yield erosion, there is a model that uses bell curve graphs and when you get ''behind'' the curve, you are already very late in the game to redress without occuring some serious damage. Increasing capacity works, up to a point but a 25% increase in economy seating will affect yield outside of the summer months and even then.

One final comment. You misread my comments as I wrote '' too many superiorly incompetent middle managers...'' not a lot or any other variant of same. Remember,it does not take a stampede of torpedoes to sink a ship. I also agree with you that there must be a lot of good people at AC to keep your company afloat.

[bmc]

I do not and never have worked for AC.

[yycflyguy]

In a nutsheel, AC has superior front line employees, a very good schedule, a top of the line network but suffers from internal rot, namely too many superiorly incompetent middle managers that too often negate any effort to get the airline to rise above the competition. This from a customer who spends a great deal of time flying and contributing to your bottom line.

Awww, did you just throw us minions a compliment? I thought we were the bane of your existence based on previous posts. Now we are "superior". Time for a group hug!

FWIW there are FAR too many middle managers. Last count, around 2400. Everyone got raises too based on their EBIDTAR performance.... yet the minions took concessions and have an underfunded pension. Senior execs got bonuses on top of their performance raises. Whatever.