Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
Dockjock
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 997
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#26 Post by Dockjock » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:18 pm

How many baby boomers does it take to change a lightbulb?

Zero, but there are 10 blocking the ladder and this is somehow your fault.
---------- ADS -----------

tailgunner
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#27 Post by tailgunner » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:20 pm

Rockie,
If you can, please answer...
How many years of pensionable military service did you bring over to AC when you were hired?
Thanks.

Ps. Plus or minus one or two years is fine..if you want to ensure your privacy.
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7373
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#28 Post by Rockie » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:32 pm

tailgunner wrote:How many years of pensionable military service did you bring over to AC when you were hired?
Why do you ask?
---------- ADS -----------

Dockjock
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 997
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#29 Post by Dockjock » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:07 pm

Probably because lots of those who claim to have been given not enough time to build up a "full" pension at AC also conveniently neglect to disclose that they actually spent a full career, or at least a significant chunk of time in the military or elsewhere prior.
I've debated with a few on this point. "Wahh, I only have 15 yrs." Were you in the military? "Oh yeah, I retired at 44 with a full pension." Ok then, 1+1 then buddy.
I have some limited sympathy for others from civvie street. "Wahh I got hired at 37." And you saved ZERO dollars during the preceding 17 years of work? These are also the guys who claim to have taken a 60% pay cut to come over. Duhhhh
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7373
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#30 Post by Rockie » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:12 pm

Dockjock wrote:Probably because lots of those who claim to have been given not enough time to build up a "full" pension at AC also conveniently neglect to disclose that they actually spent a full career, or at least a significant chunk of time in the military or elsewhere prior.
I've debated with a few on this point. "Wahh, I only have 15 yrs." Were you in the military? "Oh yeah, I retired at 44 with a full pension." Ok then, 1+1 then buddy.
I have some limited sympathy for others from civvie street. "Wahh I got hired at 37." And you saved ZERO dollars during the preceding 17 years of work? These are also the guys who claim to have taken a 60% pay cut to come over. Duhhhh
First of all that's not me.

Secondly, you still haven't learned anything about wasting time fighting individuals while the real issue squashes you like a bug.

Thirdly, you don't save for retirement unless you want to eat cat food and live in a run down abandoned trailer. You have to invest, and 98% of us aren't nearly as good at doing that as we think we are.
---------- ADS -----------

Ah_yeah
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#31 Post by Ah_yeah » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:10 pm

As difficult as it is for some posters to understand, there actually are people that enjoy doing what they're doing because it's what they've wanted to do since they were about 4 years old ...... and going to "work," isn't "work" at all.

Good for you. You're probably a pleasure to work with

The only exception is the time spent having to tolerate the depressing ramblings of Sad Sacks that see everything in life as a downer, the world is out to F them over, their lives are in disarray, and they expect me to be their counsellor while in the workplace.

Maybe they don't want your counselling. I certainly don't think it's in my job description as PIC to provide uplift to a...gasp, Sad Sack.

If you don't like it and aren't willing to act professionally .... get out and do something else somewhere else instead of poisoning the workplace as surely as if you were putting Arsenic in the drinking water cooler.

How do get unprofessional poisonous conduct from some that don't "love" the job more than you ?

I'll continue to "work" in my chosen area of interest until I feel ready to leave. If that causes those wanting my job to be anxious about what calendar date they'll get their turn in my chair .... too bad.

Have at'er skip

For those who seem to detest what they are doing and feel they are like whipped Donkeys in a third world country and screwed over, frankly I feel sorry for you.

Sad Sacks of the company, rejoice ! He feels sorry for you ! :lol:
---------- ADS -----------

DH772
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:05 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#32 Post by DH772 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:24 pm

Chris hadfield announces his retirement at age 53 and states

"There are so many young astronauts in the program. I would be an obstacle for them," said Hadfield.

I guess he never got the memo eh Rockie



I don't think it's a matter of most can't afford to retire. But rather it's most can't afford to retire on the lifestyle they're chasing.
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7373
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#33 Post by Rockie » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:41 pm

DH772 wrote:Chris hadfield announces his retirement at age 53 and states

"There are so many young astronauts in the program. I would be an obstacle for them," said Hadfield.

I guess he never got the memo eh Rockie



I don't think it's a matter of most can't afford to retire. But rather it's most can't afford to retire on the lifestyle they're chasing.
That's funny. Do you really think Chris Hadfield is going to stop working and sit around the porch at the family cottage for the rest of his life? Does he seem like that kind of guy to you?
---------- ADS -----------

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#34 Post by Mig29 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:30 pm

Rockie,

people like you, who seem very intelligent, yet so blind to see the simple side of life......trouble me, honestly. I get this feeling of deep disappointment of how someone like you and "few" others don't see that we are ALL collectively getting screwed! :?

When I see you point of view how this is going to benefit us all, I'll retract my statement.

Cheers,
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7373
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#35 Post by Rockie » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:54 am

If someone who seems intelligent to you can see something you can't Mig, maybe it's because you're not looking far enough.
---------- ADS -----------

MRP
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:36 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#36 Post by MRP » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:11 am

Rockie wrote:
DH772 wrote:Chris hadfield announces his retirement at age 53 and states

"There are so many young astronauts in the program. I would be an obstacle for them," said Hadfield.

I guess he never got the memo eh Rockie



I don't think it's a matter of most can't afford to retire. But rather it's most can't afford to retire on the lifestyle they're chasing.
That's funny. Do you really think Chris Hadfield is going to stop working and sit around the porch at the family cottage for the rest of his life? Does he seem like that kind of guy to you?
Exactly!! He is going to move on to a new career AND enjoy his retirement and pension from the space program AT THE SAME TIME! When Chris got into this he knew that he wouldn't be there at 70 years old; JUST LIKE EVERY AC PILOT DID WHEN THEY GOT HIRED. Each retired pilot had what 5, 10, 20, 30 years to prepare for their retirement from AC? And if one didn't like the conditions of the job when hired (mandatory retirement at 60) one shouldn't have accepted it. If one did accept the position, it was their responsibility to be prepared accordingly in their lifestyle which includes things like financial obligations, recreational hobbies, and having the next career ready to go if so desired.

I don't understand why one would want to work when they don't have to but that's just me. I guess its like seeing the glass half empty when you could see it half full. Like some see the title of this thread as "Happy Birthday, You're Fired", but I saw it more like this "Happy Birthday, Congratulations You're Retired!!"
---------- ADS -----------

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2579
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#37 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:29 am

Sweet. It's like Deja-vous all over again.
---------- ADS -----------

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7373
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#38 Post by Rockie » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:33 am

You're absolutely right. I don't know why I let myself get drawn back in to this pointless debate but I'll correct that right now.
---------- ADS -----------

777longhaul
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#39 Post by 777longhaul » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:37 pm

MRP and others

Guess......you did not read Chris's article very carefully, re read it. If you dont want to, let me help you, he retired by his own choice, NOT because he was forced out. Big difference.
---------- ADS -----------

Les Lavoie
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:45 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#40 Post by Les Lavoie » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:03 am

single_swine_herder wrote:Just for the record in this thread, not everybody that continues to work beyond the first day they qualify to retire does so because they need the money.

As difficult as it is for some posters to understand, there actually are people that enjoy doing what they're doing because it's what they've wanted to do since they were about 4 years old ...... and going to "work," isn't "work" at all.

The only exception is the time spent having to tolerate the depressing ramblings of Sad Sacks that see everything in life as a downer, the world is out to F them over, their lives are in disarray, and they expect me to be their counsellor while in the workplace.

If you don't like it and aren't willing to act professionally .... get out and do something else somewhere else instead of poisoning the workplace as surely as if you were putting Arsenic in the drinking water cooler.

I'll continue to "work" in my chosen area of interest until I feel ready to leave. If that causes those wanting my job to be anxious about what calendar date they'll get their turn in my chair .... too bad.

For those who seem to detest what they are doing and feel they are like whipped Donkeys in a third world country and screwed over, frankly I feel sorry for you.
+1
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#41 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:06 am

single_swine_herder wrote:Just for the record in this thread, not everybody that continues to work beyond the first day they qualify to retire does so because they need the money.

As difficult as it is for some posters to understand, there actually are people that enjoy doing what they're doing because it's what they've wanted to do since they were about 4 years old ...... and going to "work," isn't "work" at all.

The only exception is the time spent having to tolerate the depressing ramblings of Sad Sacks that see everything in life as a downer, the world is out to F them over, their lives are in disarray, and they expect me to be their counsellor while in the workplace.

If you don't like it and aren't willing to act professionally .... get out and do something else somewhere else instead of poisoning the workplace as surely as if you were putting Arsenic in the drinking water cooler.

I'll continue to "work" in my chosen area of interest until I feel ready to leave. If that causes those wanting my job to be anxious about what calendar date they'll get their turn in my chair .... too bad.

For those who seem to detest what they are doing and feel they are like whipped Donkeys in a third world country and screwed over, frankly I feel sorry for you.

Sounds/appears to be an individual whose "life is their job or job is their life" . In my 63 yrs of living experienced, such people I tended to steer clear of, and continue to do because that's all they know(their job) and that's all they are interested in.

As one poster pointed out - have at'er.........


:rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
complexintentions
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#42 Post by complexintentions » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:19 am

Rockie wrote:
whipline wrote:At present I don't want to work until 75 because you stayed longer and limited my wage. I want the chance to finish early not late.
So basic human rights are less important than your career expectations.

Does that sound about right?
For feck's sake. Working at Air Canada isn't a basic human right. At any age. There used to be a rule, that everyone knew and agreed with when hired, that pilots retired at age 60. Does that sound about right? Pilots at 60 weren't told they couldn't seek gainful employment anywhere else, ever again. They weren't beaten up by homophobes, made to sit at the back of a bus, or paid less than anyone else (actually, they made a lot more than anyone else). They weren't denied shelter or drinking water or legal protection or the right to vote. THOSE are basic human rights. The only thing they weren't allowed to do was continue working at Air Canada. This was "sprung" on them in their contract when they were hired, but I suppose many of them only had a mere several decades to prepare for the day they knew would come. Well, now instead of actually KNOWING the day they will be done collecting income and start collecting a pension, they get to find out on the day they don't pass a medical or ride, I suppose. Enjoy that. I guess that's what passes for progress in Canada these days. Just make sure your son or grandson doesn't go into aviation. Better yet, don't reproduce. There's obviously too many people if someone making the money a senior AC pilot is can't afford to retire at 60.

Grandiose rhetoric that frames an employment issue in one employee group, in one company, in one industry, on the same scale as basic human rights as most people in the world would think of them, is ridiculous.

I'm actually sorry for those who are so financially ignorant, have so completely mismanaged their personal affairs, or just so desperately need to tie their identity to some stupid job that they have no choice but to work harder and longer than they used to.

But throwing around terms like "discrimination" and "human rights" only cheapens real world issues, which makes me see red. It was simple greed, and as it usually does, greed won.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
single_swine_herder
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 622
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#43 Post by single_swine_herder » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:55 am

Old fella wrote:[Sounds/appears to be an individual whose "life is their job or job is their life" . In my 63 yrs of living experienced, such people I tended to steer clear of, and continue to do because that's all they know(their job) and that's all they are interested in.

As one poster pointed out - have at'er.........


:rolleyes:

Nope .... incorrect assessment Old Fella ..... I just am not among those who seem to hate their job right from their days flying a 185 on floats through to the present day, revel in gossipping about how screwed up things and people are in their opinion, show up for work with a hang-dog look and body language, upset with their general lot in life, living in a whirpool of personal misery and disatisfaction that seem to spread it to colleagues as if they were carrying Typhoid.
---------- ADS -----------

Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#44 Post by Mig29 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:18 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Rockie wrote:
whipline wrote:At present I don't want to work until 75 because you stayed longer and limited my wage. I want the chance to finish early not late.
So basic human rights are less important than your career expectations.

Does that sound about right?
For feck's sake. Working at Air Canada isn't a basic human right. At any age. There used to be a rule, that everyone knew and agreed with when hired, that pilots retired at age 60. Does that sound about right? Pilots at 60 weren't told they couldn't seek gainful employment anywhere else, ever again. They weren't beaten up by homophobes, made to sit at the back of a bus, or paid less than anyone else (actually, they made a lot more than anyone else). They weren't denied shelter or drinking water or legal protection or the right to vote. THOSE are basic human rights. The only thing they weren't allowed to do was continue working at Air Canada. This was "sprung" on them in their contract when they were hired, but I suppose many of them only had a mere several decades to prepare for the day they knew would come. Well, now instead of actually KNOWING the day they will be done collecting income and start collecting a pension, they get to find out on the day they don't pass a medical or ride, I suppose. Enjoy that. I guess that's what passes for progress in Canada these days. Just make sure your son or grandson doesn't go into aviation. Better yet, don't reproduce. There's obviously too many people if someone making the money a senior AC pilot is can't afford to retire at 60.

Grandiose rhetoric that frames an employment issue in one employee group, in one company, in one industry, on the same scale as basic human rights as most people in the world would think of them, is ridiculous.

I'm actually sorry for those who are so financially ignorant, have so completely mismanaged their personal affairs, or just so desperately need to tie their identity to some stupid job that they have no choice but to work harder and longer than they used to.

But throwing around terms like "discrimination" and "human rights" only cheapens real world issues, which makes me see red. It was simple greed, and as it usually does, greed won.

+ 100
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#45 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:35 pm

single_swine_herder wrote:
Old fella wrote:[Sounds/appears to be an individual whose "life is their job or job is their life" . In my 63 yrs of living experienced, such people I tended to steer clear of, and continue to do because that's all they know(their job) and that's all they are interested in.

As one poster pointed out - have at'er.........


:rolleyes:

Nope .... incorrect assessment Old Fella ..... I just am not among those who seem to hate their job right from their days flying a 185 on floats through to the present day, revel in gossipping about how screwed up things and people are in their opinion, show up for work with a hang-dog look and body language, upset with their general lot in life, living in a whirpool of personal misery and disatisfaction that seem to spread it to colleagues as if they were carrying Typhoid.
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!! Company loves misery or misery loves company - I don't know how to spin it. Glad to hear you are not amongst the 'haters" but your vast descriptive tone suggests to me , you are bothered by misery dwellers.If I may(and you are willing to accept my words) - don't let it prey on you. Then again I never experienced "haters" to that extent in my 60 odd years(35+ in this racket). And again , maybe I lived a sheltered life in the 70s-80s.

Cheers
:drinkers:
---------- ADS -----------

777longhaul
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#46 Post by 777longhaul » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:02 pm

Basic greed, yep, on both sides of the fence, no one greater, or less than the other.....NEXT!

One thing that many of you are not aware of, is where the age 60 rule really came from. The company wanted to get rid of some pilots, they did a deal, and surprise, age 60 was the new norm. It was never voted in, and was not put officially into the contract until many years later. There was never a vote, and it has been challenged as far back as the early 70's.

Oh, by the way, the Federal Government Changed the discrimmination rules of forced retirement. It was not any body at AC or any other group involved in this court issue. It was the Federal Government, and you dont have to worry about the FP60 group, acpa has your back.

Whipline

Doubt you are AC pilot. If you were, you would be able to see on AC aeronet, that not all the pilots who are retiring, or were force retired, (say over the last 7 years) were senior. Some, were F/O and some were Relief Pilots. So try to get some facts before you write about a subject that is beyond your scope.

Suggest many of you take the time to look at this article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6a ... %2C4028935
---------- ADS -----------

777longhaul
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#47 Post by 777longhaul » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:12 pm

Some.... minor Info for the champions of age discrimination on this forum:

History of age 60 in USA:

History of age 60 in Canada: (at the bottom of this post)


James A. Fitts says his parents thought he was crazy when as a boy of 5 in 1940 he began drawing pictures of sleek airplanes with swept-back wings and no propellers. But Mr. Fitts was convinced that he would one day pilot such seemingly outlandish aircraft, and he was right.

After flying fighters and reconnaissance jets in the Air Force, he spent 26 years as a commercial airline pilot, logging 31,000 hours in the air. But his career ended abruptly two days before he turned 60 on June 18, 1995, when, like all commercial airline pilots, he was forced to retire.

''I miss it so much,'' said Mr. Fitts, who still sometimes co-pilots a private jet for a corporation close to his home near Des Moines. ''I just love hauling people around.''

At a time when Americans are living longer than ever, when Congress is raising the Social Security retirement age to 67 from 65, and when Senator John Glenn, 77, is about to go back to outer space, the Federal Aviation Administration is still forcing airline pilots to retire at age 60, in one of the last remaining examples of Government-sanctioned age discrimination.
The so-called age-60 rule, which applies only to commercial airline pilots, was put in place in 1959 to promote safety. But the rule was disputed from the beginning, attracting numerous legal challenges and studies that concluded the rule had no medical rationale.

Still, the F.A.A. has steadfastly maintained that despite the growing sophistication of flight simulators and other tests, there is no way to determine whether pilots over 60 might suddenly drop dead in the cockpit or suffer a ''subtle degradation'' of their mental faculties.

Tomorrow, in the latest bid to overturn the rule, the Supreme Court will announce whether it will hear the appeal of a group of pilots who contend that the regulation violates the Federal law barring age discrimination. But even if the court chooses not to take up the case -- a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals voted 2 to 1 last July to uphold the rule -- the older pilots have vowed to fight on.

''If Glenn can go into space at 77, why can't we fly to Cleveland at 60?'' said Bert Yetman, 65, the president of the Professional Pilots Federation, which has taken the lead in opposing the rule.

The answer, according to former F.A.A. officials, airline executives and sympathetic younger pilots, is not concerns about safety but politics. The Air Line Pilots Association, which represents most of the country's 80,000 commercial airline pilots, once led the fight against the age-60 rule. But now the union is its biggest champion.

Union officials say their members believe the rule enhances safety. But others say the union is more concerned that allowing older pilots to fly longer would make it more difficult for its younger members to move up the seniority ranks into the captain's seat.

''It's not a medical issue,'' said Donald D. Engen, the F.A.A. head in the mid-1980's. ''The younger guys want the older guys out because they want to be captain. Captains draw the bigger pay.''

Since 1987, mandatory retirement has been outlawed for all but a handful of jobs. Aside from the pilots, the exceptions -- including air traffic controllers and police and fire officers -- were permitted by Congress and aroused little controversy.

A demographic bulge of pilots who joined the airlines in the late 1960's and 70's is rapidly approaching 60, bringing more pilots than ever face to face with the rule. Many older pilots, especially those with lucrative pension plans, favor early retirement. They fear that raising the retirement age would threaten a special tax exemption that enables them to collect their full corporate retirement benefits without penalty at 60 rather than 65.

But many of the pilots fighting the age-60 rule worked at airlines that went bankrupt in the aftermath of the industry's deregulation 20 years ago. Because every airline operates on a seniority system, each time the pilots joined a new carrier they were forced to work their way up from lower-paying jobs in the second or third seat in the cockpit.

''It's kind of ironic that just when the slot machine starts to pay off, you have to pack it in and walk out of the door,'' said L. Brandon Smithe, 58, a captain at American Airlines who spent 18 years at Continental Airlines before it entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1983 in order to break its union contracts.

While pilots his age who spent their careers at American will retire with a lump sum of $2 million plus a pension, Mr. Smithe said he would only receive about a quarter of that.

Compared with the main pilots' union, the older pilots have little influence. The Air Line Pilots Association contributed nearly $900,000, mostly to Democrats, in the last campaign and $1.3 million in 1992 and 1993, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a Washington research group.

Two years ago, when the Professional Pilots Association persuaded the House Appropriations Committee to authorize a new study of the rule by the National Transportation Safety Board, the Air Line Pilots Association got the full House to prohibit the safety board from spending any money on the examination.

David Hinson, the F.A.A. administrator from 1993 to 1996, said it was clear to him that his superiors at the Transportation Department were not eager to take on the rule. ''It was a subject that they did not want to put on the table,'' he said.

For their part, the major airlines are now indifferent to the rule; some would like to see experienced pilots fly longer while others do not want to upset a system that seems to work.

Supporters of the rule acknowledge that the choice of 60 is arbitrary. It originated in the 1950's, when three airlines, including American, tried to force their pilots to retire at that age, citing airline safety. After a labor arbitrator ruled against the airlines, C. R. Smith, then American's president, appealed privately to his friend, Elwood Quesada, a former Air Force general who was the F.A.A.'s first administrator.

General Quesada got the rule passed in December 1959, even though an internal memo from the agency's Civil Air Surgeon expressed concern that the agency had no ''scientific or factual justification.'' General Quesada retired a year later and joined the board of American Airlines.
''I don't think anybody has ever said that there is anything magical about an age-60 limit,'' said Dr. Jon Jordan, the Federal Air Surgeon. The point, he said, was that the risk of catastrophic illness or mental deterioration rose with age and that 60 was seen as the appropriate place to draw the line.

But the rationale for picking 60 has become less supportable over the years. Aviation authorities in Europe, Australia and elsewhere that once followed the F.A.A. have raised the mandatory retirement age for their airline pilots to 65. At least two F.A.A.-sponsored studies since 1981 have concluded that there is no evidence that accident rates increase as pilots get older. The most recent study, in 1993, concluded the F.A.A. could ''cautiously'' raise the age to 63.

The older pilots say they must still pass the semiannual physical exam required by the F.A.A. They are willing to undergo other tests, like the quarterly checkups on a flight simulator now required in Britain, where the retirement age was raised to 65 four years ago.

But after its last review of the rule in 1995, the agency not only decided to maintain 60 as the cutoff, it also extended the rule to commuter planes capable of carrying 10 or more passengers, saying it would raise the level of safety. Previously, pilots of commercial planes able to carry up to 30 passengers did not have a mandatory retirement age.

Dr. Jordan said the F.A.A. could not extend the age limit because there were no data available on the performance of commercial airline pilots over 60.

But the F.A.A. has refused repeated requests to waive the rule for selected pilots in order to obtain such data because, Dr. Jordan said, the lack of data means there is no sure method to choose a test group of pilots that could safely fly past 60.

''The agency's complacent acceptance of this Catch-22 situation, particularly given that the result is the continuation of a government-imposed regime of age discrimination, seems to me to be the epitome of arbitrary action,'' Judge Patricia Wald wrote in her dissent to last year's Court of Appeals decision upholding the rule.

The pilots say that the main reason airplanes have two-member crews is so that if the pilot becomes incapacitated, the co-pilot can take over. They add that the experience gained from years in the cockpit makes older pilots actually safer.

''If you were wrongfully accused of murder, would you go out and find a first-time lawyer or get F. Lee Bailey?'' said David Cronin, 69, a former captain with United Airlines.

In 1989, Mr. Cronin drew on his experience to bring a crippled 747 to a safe landing in Hawaii in 1989 after one of the plane's cargo doors blew off, killing nine passengers. A month later, just before his 60th birthday, he was forced to retire.

Mr. Cronin and other opponents of the rule argue that the F.A.A. regularly allows younger pilots who have had heart attacks, psychological problems or difficulties with drugs and alcohol to return to the cockpit.

''I never had a day sick, never had an organ transplant, never had a drug or alcohol problem,'' said Mr. Yetman, the Professional Pilots Federation president, who flew for Southwest Airlines until he turned 60 in 1993. ''I just had an unfortunate birthday.''



History of age 60 in Canada:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6a ... %2C4028935
---------- ADS -----------

43S/172E
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:26 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#48 Post by 43S/172E » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:04 am

A long time ago it was agreed by a majority of pilots that retirement would be contractually as opposed "mandatory" to a certain age of 60. In the vast majority of people who I talked to over the years they were quite happy to be "fired", "pushed out the door" or ( insert flavour of the day here).

There was a time in the 80's when the then Vice-President of Flight Operations Charlie Simpson came up with a Voluntary Severance Package to prevent lay offs. Charlie and the then President of CALPA had a $20:00 wager over how many pilots would take the VSP to which Charlie said no more then 3 as everyone loved their job. The VSP was cancelled when it went over a 100 pilots and Charlie lost the wager.

In a previous post reference is made to the late Ross Stevenson who I might add died at age 62 of brain cancer. Ross was known as a "me myself party of 3" kind of guy who for example when fruit baskets were part of the contract took sole possession of the the fruit basket as it said pilot's fruit basket and since he was Captain it belonged to me as I was the pilot. The other two on the scene did not count......

Another piece of irony was last year when there was a Globe and Mail article on a certain Captain who was "forced" to retire and did a horrible job of P/R for the fly past 60 crowd was alleged as I was told bragged in flight planning how he called Ross Stevenson up late at night and berated him for holding up his career.

So we have gone from the contractually agreed retirement age of 60 to a how long do you want to stay. Since this has been decided with little input of the end users of the system this as hard as it may sound time to move on and protect what ever is left in the profession.

My turn came the view at the top was splendid but I considered myself a hypocrite if I wanted to stay as others left before me it was my time to exit to which I did.

Surprisingly life is grand but the only downside is the funerals of former colleagues and friends who now are passing with a distressing frequency.

In closing enjoy your career sometimes life will give you a lemon so make lemonade and do not let the pedestrian comments of a few interfere with your thoughts
---------- ADS -----------

Jack In The Box
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#49 Post by Jack In The Box » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:24 am

The way I see it, is that I am working for Air Canada and they can well make the terms of employment as they please and my options are to like it, suck it up, or go elsewhere. Not every work rule has to, nor should be, negotiated by a union.

Then again good luck getting THAT to fly in this day and age of entitlement :roll:
---------- ADS -----------

MackTheKnife
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:54 am
Location: The 'Wet Coast"

Re: Happy Birthday, You're Fired!!

#50 Post by MackTheKnife » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:06 am

43S/172E wrote:A long time ago it was agreed by a majority of pilots that retirement would be contractual"

"So we have gone from the contractually agreed retirement age of 60 to a how long do you want to stay. Since this has been decided with little input of the end users of the system this as hard as it may sound time to move on and protect what ever is left in
Another Fallacy !

You may have a different contract than I ever had since I have never been able to find where it was contractual. Please show us where in the contract, Calpa or ACPA, where it says anything in reference to age 60! Give us a reference. Chapter & Verse please. I would like to read it.

As per little input ......In my entire career with the airline, the pilots never had a say in the establishment of a set retirement age as it was NEVER put to a vote so it's only fitting they have little input when it was abolished.

When I was forced out I felt exactly as per the title of this thread. Some manager I had never even met before showed up at the gate and shook my hand. As far as I was concerned he might just as well have said " Happy Birthday, guess what, you're fired"


MTK
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”