Making a great Salary now, should I move?

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yycflyguy
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#51 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:33 pm

livin' wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:
Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.


Yes, ACPA pilots bid equipment on a seniority based system and if there are reductions then people can be bumped out of their spots.

No sure where you get your information, or what you define as "many" but there is currently 1 captain at LCC that could not hold a mainline captain spot.

Are you getting some joy out of posting speculation as fact?
You need to check your facts.

It's not speculation, but fact that:

There are 50 LCC 319 CA in YYZ that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions. (71% of the list)

There are 13 LCC 319 CA in YVR that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions (81% of the list)

Check your CMSC 14-01A review.

rouge might be your short term solution for WAWCON but have you done the math to see your career earnings difference between waiting a couple of years for the mainline position as opposed to accepting reduced wages earlier now? It's ok if you haven't. Most didn't. If you willingly bid rouge, your grandfathering rights are gone.
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livin'
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#52 Post by livin' » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:48 pm

Bottom mainline captain is seniority#2628, bottom rouge is 2629.

There is one person on the Yyz rouge captain list that cannot hold mainline captain. There are 0 in yvr and 0 in yul.

Your original post on this topic refers to mainline positions. The embraer is a mainline position. If you are referring to 319 vs 320 then you should say so, otherwise you are just misleading people.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#53 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:45 pm

livin' wrote:Bottom mainline captain is seniority#2628, bottom rouge is 2629.

There is one person on the Yyz rouge captain list that cannot hold mainline captain. There are 0 in yvr and 0 in yul.

Your original post on this topic refers to mainline positions. The embraer is a mainline position. If you are referring to 319 vs 320 then you should say so, otherwise you are just misleading people.
At no time did I make reference to the Embraer. I think you are the one misleading people.

I spelled it out quite clearly that there are 50 LCC 319 CA in YYZ that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions. (71% of the list)

There are 13 LCC 319 CA in YVR that cannot hold equivalent mainline positions (81% of the list)

Check your CMSC 14-01A review.

Bottom YYZ 320CA seniority is 2165 which puts him at position 20 out of 70 on the LCC319 CA list meaning 49 of those pilots are at risk of being bumped when the FINs xfer over. Same situation in YVR.

There are 8 APOS YUL LCC 319 CA
There are 16 APOS YVR LCC 319 CA

Saying there are 0 is terribly misleading. You probably meant 0 QPOS.

Let me know what your math works out to be when you compare 5 years at mainline equivalent pay vs 5 years rouge.... but you can't expect the overtime incentives in your calculations because my counter argument will be to point out the loss of per diem as most LCC 319 routes are turns with no layover.
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Fanblade
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#54 Post by Fanblade » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:24 pm

Ask an MEC member. Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

So far the company is choosing not to reduce in favour of reduced block hours but they reserve the right to change their mind. I think they are struggling with the retirement forecast.

The only reason AC is hiring at the moment is to fill Rouge spots. If the company changes there mind and reduces, hiring will stop and the seniority to hold Captain will significantly change.
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livin'
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#55 Post by livin' » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:22 pm

Let me remind you of your original post with regard to there being "many" rouge captains that cannot hold mainline Captain positions:
yycflyguy wrote: Is there any concern/talk at rouge that as it grows and more senior pilots are forced off mainline positions and into LCC CA positions that existing LCC guys with lower seniority will be forced out of the left seat and into a different position? There are many holding CA positions at rouge that can't at mainline.
You make reference to mainline captain positions, of which embraer captain is one. The numbers I gave are from the most recent equipment bid and are APOS. There is only 1 APOS rouge captain position company wide that cannot currently hold a mainline captain position. If you have access to the bid results then look it up.

Here is another one of your stated facts that is, for the most part, false:
yycflyguy wrote: Travel benefits: AC/rouge new hires go behind Jazz, Georgian, flight attendants, agents, maintenance, ramp employees... also behind managers who are hired after.
Here is another one that tells me you don't know what you are talking about:
yycflyguy wrote: but you can't expect the overtime incentives in your calculations because my counter argument will be to point out the loss of per diem as most LCC 319 routes are turns with no layover.
Of course you cannot predict OT income but pairings with per diems are there if you want it. Multi day pairings represent almost 50% of the yyz rouge pairings for the month of March. As Rouge is expanding it would be logical that multi day pairings will make up a significant portion of available pairings. Per diems at rouge are paid at the same rate as mainline.


I'm not sure what the future holds for Rouge , mainline or anybody else (I think Fanblades synopsis on the whole thing is pretty accurate). What I do know is that if you keep posting mistruths, then people that know better than you will call you out on your BS.
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watermeth
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#56 Post by watermeth » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:50 pm

Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.
I have a question though and I'm curious, not stirring the pot : if Rouge hires pilots, how can AC keep its pilots if all the seats at Rouge are taken. obviously the number of fin tranfered to Rouge will likely out weight the few 787 arriving this year.
Unless they force some manpower to Rouge, it's hard to see how AC will cope with this overflow of pilots if Board wants to keep costs low ?
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yycflyguy
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#57 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:35 pm

Fanblade wrote:Ask an MEC member. Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

So far the company is choosing not to reduce in favour of reduced block hours but they reserve the right to change their mind. I think they are struggling with the retirement forecast.

The only reason AC is hiring at the moment is to fill Rouge spots. If the company changes there mind and reduces, hiring will stop and the seniority to hold Captain will significantly change.
Exactly right.

The stagnation caused by non retirement affects all movement. Probably take another 2 or 3 years for upward movement to occur.

Additional RP hiring may be required if mandatory augmented flights through British/European airspace becomes a requirement that AC is obligated to comply with.
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#58 Post by Fanblade » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:12 pm

watermeth wrote:
Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.
I have a question though and I'm curious, not stirring the pot : if Rouge hires pilots, how can AC keep its pilots if all the seats at Rouge are taken. obviously the number of fin tranfered to Rouge will likely out weight the few 787 arriving this year.
Unless they force some manpower to Rouge, it's hard to see how AC will cope with this overflow of pilots if Board wants to keep costs low ?
As YYC pointed out retirements were supposed to alleviate the surplus at mainline as fins transferred to Rouge. Those retirements are not happening and AC appears to be taking a wait and see approach at least for now. If they decide retirements will take too long and need to force reduce, mainline pilots will bump into Rouge.

AC is trying to avoid doing this but again how long they will wait for retirements to restart is their call.
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planeless
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#59 Post by planeless » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:53 am

No matter how you slice it the more flying moving to rouge is bad news for everyone air canada.
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#60 Post by Old fella » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:35 am

Outside of less pay(if that is correct), what is the advantage of AC Rouge to me as a fare paying passenger. Unless I am missing something(and I miss a lot), on the grand scheme of things, what is Rouge all about despite it's color of red. I can understand your four carriers under the AC Express with aircraft types and destinations, but honestly Rouge throws me.

I am getting old................ :wink:
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#61 Post by ogopogo » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:49 pm

I can understand your four carriers under the AC Express with aircraft types and destinations, but honestly Rouge throws me.

Me, too. I was always led to believe that pilots' wages were only a minor contributing factor to the cost of running an airline, say compared to fuel costs and maintenance. Same airplanes, same maintenance unions, same fuel, same business systems, etc --

What gives?
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#62 Post by yycflyguy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:32 pm

Old fella wrote:Outside of less pay(if that is correct), what is the advantage of AC Rouge to me as a fare paying passenger. Unless I am missing something(and I miss a lot), on the grand scheme of things, what is Rouge all about despite it's color of red. I can understand your four carriers under the AC Express with aircraft types and destinations, but honestly Rouge throws me.

I am getting old................ :wink:
Marketing.

Same airplanes, same routes, serviced by the same fuelers, dispatch, gate, ground, maintenance and a bloated management structure. Only the pilots and flight attendants are doing the work for less. What does that mean to the travelling public? Nothing. It will be marketed as a low cost vacation airline and people will buy seats based on the perception that it is a discount carrier. It is not. Much like how there is a significant population who still thinks Westjet is cheaper. There were many comparisons between mainline ticket price and rouge ticket price. They were generally the same and in some cases rouge was more expensive.
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#63 Post by Ah_yeah » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:01 pm

Fanblade wrote:Ask an MEC member. Mainline is overstaffed by about 200 pilots according to the company. Not sure if that is current or projected after the 319's move this year.

So far the company is choosing not to reduce in favour of reduced block hours but they reserve the right to change their mind. I think they are struggling with the retirement forecast.

The only reason AC is hiring at the moment is to fill Rouge spots. If the company changes there mind and reduces, hiring will stop and the seniority to hold Captain will significantly change.
100 percent correct according to my source who makes more money flying a desk than a plane.
It will boil down to money. The cost of moving me to Rouge (and I am somewhat vulnerable) vs a first year capt more than negates the salary of a new hire. The fly in the ointment may arrive when the clever "20 319" clause takes effect. Ie, pilots of my ilk get reduced after the first 20 319's leave and as a result they don't have to pay me mainline rate. It's pretty easy to write a contract full of traps when the Feds give you the wink.
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Re: Making a great Salary now, should I move?

#64 Post by Old fella » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:49 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Old fella wrote:Outside of less pay(if that is correct), what is the advantage of AC Rouge to me as a fare paying passenger. Unless I am missing something(and I miss a lot), on the grand scheme of things, what is Rouge all about despite it's color of red. I can understand your four carriers under the AC Express with aircraft types and destinations, but honestly Rouge throws me.

I am getting old................ :wink:
Marketing.

Same airplanes, same routes, serviced by the same fuelers, dispatch, gate, ground, maintenance and a bloated management structure. Only the pilots and flight attendants are doing the work for less. What does that mean to the travelling public? Nothing. It will be marketed as a low cost vacation airline and people will buy seats based on the perception that it is a discount carrier. It is not. Much like how there is a significant population who still thinks Westjet is cheaper. There were many comparisons between mainline ticket price and rouge ticket price. They were generally the same and in some cases rouge was more expensive.
I figured as much but glad you said it. Didn't AC try something similar years back using B737(from the Canadian Airlines merger) and called it ZIP or Zoom, can't remember which. Is Rouge modeled from that.
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