Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

[DHC-1 Jockey]

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1361925 ... -to-hawaii

I've heard the legroom is bad enough on those 3-4 hour flights. How long is YYZ-HNL??

Plus, the YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG routes will be converted from Mainline to Rouge as well. It seems that the Rouge empire is expanding with no signs of slowing down.

[CanadianEh]

Replace Air Canada with Qantas and Rouge with Jetstar. This is going to be a mess

[scopiton]

they will also start YYz - Rio de Janeiro in december.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ts-398993/

[whiteguy]

they will also start YYz - Rio de Janeiro in december.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ts-398993/

Rio is AC mainline not Rouge.

[scopiton]

Everything concerning the future is laid out here
http://www.flightglobal.com/interviews/ ... interview/

[dukepoint]

Rouge is limited in size by Article 1, scope. Under the current contract, it cannot grow unless there is pilot cooperation.

Cooperation can be purchased, it's just a matter of cost. Since we're addicted to "zero cost" horse trading, that cost will be cheep to the Corp and they know it.

DP.

[dukepoint]

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1361925 ... -to-hawaii

I've heard the legroom is bad enough on those 3-4 hour flights. How long is YYZ-HNL??

Plus, the YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG routes will be converted from Mainline to Rouge as well. It seems that the Rouge empire is expanding with no signs of slowing down.

If someone told you they'd pay you $35/hour to sit in a 29" pitch seat and watch streamed video on your Ipad, would you do it?

For every 20 bucks someone saves on a ticket, they have to earn about $35 before tax. If a 4 hour flight is $100 cheeper because it's a Rouge flight, how many "average" Canadians would say, "...no thanks, I'll pay the extra $100 to get the extra 2 inches of legroom for 4 hours on a regular Mainline flight." I'm guessing most average Canadian's work hard for their money, and realize the value of a dollar, so not many. If the difference was only $50 on a 4 hour flight, I'd still say "not many"...........Air Canada marketing understands this, pilots do not. Our Rouge flights are full. I expect YYZ-HNL to be full as well. More often than you'd expect, a figure as low as $5 can make the difference between a customer making a choice between AC and WJ leaving YVR at the same time, on a 6 hour flight to Hawaii.

2 lost inches can be forgotten aweful quickly at Duke's with the booze 50 extra bucks will buy.

DP.

[yycflyguy]

Fallacy Dukepoint.

Rouge tickets are no cheaper than mainline and in many cases are more expensive than mainline.

FWIW. This is nothing new. AC used to service YYZ-HNL with continuing service to SYD and AUK. rouge servicing hawaii is exactly the destination it was created to serve.

[whiteguy]

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1361925 ... -to-hawaii

I've heard the legroom is bad enough on those 3-4 hour flights. How long is YYZ-HNL??

Plus, the YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG routes will be converted from Mainline to Rouge as well. It seems that the Rouge empire is expanding with no signs of slowing down.

If someone told you they'd pay you $35/hour to sit in a 29" pitch seat and watch streamed video on your Ipad, would you do it?

For every 20 bucks someone saves on a ticket, they have to earn about $35 before tax. If a 4 hour flight is $100 cheeper because it's a Rouge flight, how many "average" Canadians would say, "...no thanks, I'll pay the extra $100 to get the extra 2 inches of legroom for 4 hours on a regular Mainline flight." I'm guessing most average Canadian's work hard for their money, and realize the value of a dollar, so not many. If the difference was only $50 on a 4 hour flight, I'd still say "not many"...........Air Canada marketing understands this, pilots do not. Our Rouge flights are full. I expect YYZ-HNL to be full as well. More often than you'd expect, a figure as low as $5 can make the difference between a customer making a choice between AC and WJ leaving YVR at the same time, on a 6 hour flight to Hawaii.

2 lost inches can be forgotten aweful quickly at Duke's with the booze 50 extra bucks will buy.

DP.

Seat pitch in the B763 is 30", the A319s are 29".

[dukepoint]

Fallacy Dukepoint.

Rouge tickets are no cheaper than mainline and in many cases are more expensive than mainline.

FWIW. This is nothing new. AC used to service YYZ-HNL with continuing service to SYD and AUK. rouge servicing hawaii is exactly the destination it was created to serve.

I find it hard to believe that Rouge won't offer even a small discount for degraded seat pitch and degraded entertainment options. If true then.....

FWIW. I know it's not new. I used to fly it on the 767. YYZ crew to HNL layover and a YVR crew to Australia for another nice layover at the Ridges right downtown. Nice mix.

[Genetk44]

Fallacy Dukepoint.

Rouge tickets are no cheaper than mainline and in many cases are more expensive than mainline.

FWIW. This is nothing new. AC used to service YYZ-HNL with continuing service to SYD and AUK. rouge servicing hawaii is exactly the destination it was created to serve.

I find it hard to believe that Rouge won't offer even a small discount for degraded seat pitch and degraded entertainment options. If true then.....

FWIW. I know it's not new. I used to fly it on the 767. YYZ crew to HNL layover and a YVR crew to Australia for another nice layover at the Ridges right downtown. Nice mix.

Well the two flights I took on Rouge earlier this month cost the exact same price that I paid for the exact same flights on I took on Air Canada mainline in March.

[berta']

It's a low cost carrier, for the company... not the passengers. Or guests if you're an owner.

[Genetk44]

It's a low cost carrier, for the company... not the passengers. Or guests if you're an owner.

Yeah....and that is one of the major complaints by passengers...besides the crappy uncomfortable seats and painfully cramped lack of legroom.

[Fanblade]

People are simply not willing to pay for real estate on an aircraft. They have proven it time and time again with their wallets. Unwilling to pay an extra $20 for a couple of inches. But a $100 cab fare at the far end is fine. Where did this mentality develope?

Did anyone pick up on how many J seat refunds AC handed out on the YVR-LAX route because of Rouge? A handful. No one is paying for those seats. Must be almost all upgrade coupons in those seats.

Anyway you get what you ask for. Your not willing to pay? A company will provide something you are willing to pay for that is profitable. That is how a company stays in business. By providing what people want. In this case it is clear that the cheapest fare possible is what most people want.

Notice even all the mainline WB are going HD in the back. Clearly the extra leg room model isn't profitable.

German wings is putting an extra row beyond Rouge in their 319's. 150 seats. They are 12 years old now and expanding. Must be working.

[Genetk44]

I'm not so sure equating Germanwings and Rouge is correct. If nothing else Germanwings pushes "cheap flights" on its advertising....I haven't noticed Rouge promoting cheap flights at all.

I don't disagree about you point that the masses aren't in general prepared to pay for legroom....but I still maintain that they could have reduced the A319 J class by 6 of the 2x2 mainline seats to 8 of 2x2
Mainline seats and still have room to up the Rouge aircraft to 120 economy seats from the Mainline 106 economy seats. That way they could have still kept their SE/FF and business flyers happy while still cramming in more pax than the mainline A319 carries and with the pilot/FA contract savings and other Rouge cost saving measures they still would have been able to claim improved numbers over the mainline product....and not have gotten the horrible marketing and media exposure they are now getting.
I think the greed factor got magnified too far this time.

[duranium]

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1361925 ... -to-hawaii

I've heard the legroom is bad enough on those 3-4 hour flights. How long is YYZ-HNL??

Plus, the YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG routes will be converted from Mainline to Rouge as well. It seems that the Rouge empire is expanding with no signs of slowing down.

If someone told you they'd pay you $35/hour to sit in a 29" pitch seat and watch streamed video on your Ipad, would you do it?

For every 20 bucks someone saves on a ticket, they have to earn about $35 before tax. If a 4 hour flight is $100 cheeper because it's a Rouge flight, how many "average" Canadians would say, "...no thanks, I'll pay the extra $100 to get the extra 2 inches of legroom for 4 hours on a regular Mainline flight." I'm guessing most average Canadian's work hard for their money, and realize the value of a dollar, so not many. If the difference was only $50 on a 4 hour flight, I'd still say "not many"...........Air Canada marketing understands this, pilots do not. Our Rouge flights are full. I expect YYZ-HNL to be full as well. More often than you'd expect, a figure as low as $5 can make the difference between a customer making a choice between AC and WJ leaving YVR at the same time, on a 6 hour flight to Hawaii.

2 lost inches can be forgotten aweful quickly at Duke's with the booze 50 extra bucks will buy.

DP.

Well, you are wrong honey. I am a frequent flyer, use premium economy and J and will pay the extra 100 or so for that legroom.Travelling in economy on your " new" 777-300 overseas is downright unconfortable all the time and painful some of the time. Last flight was in premium and my next seat person, a very well travelled IT company CO told me that, given the " Air Canada" approach to Customer confort, he would be giving Air France a serious shot at his business as well as BA. This is not the first time in the last year that I was told something along those lines. If it is convenient, I should also be looking at those same options. And before some of you write us off, remember this very important fact. We, the high end travellers, will make or break your bottom line. Second thing to ponder is this. Someone will build a better mouse trap than yours and then, with your narrow view , you will be left holding the bag. Facts of life that many at your company, including your CO, have dismissed as figments of the imagination.

[Fanblade]

I'm not so sure equating Germanwings and Rouge is correct. If nothing else Germanwings pushes "cheap flights" on its advertising....I haven't noticed Rouge promoting cheap flights at all.

I don't disagree about you point that the masses aren't in general prepared to pay for legroom....but I still maintain that they could have reduced the A319 J class by 6 of the 2x2 mainline seats to 8 of 2x2
Mainline seats and still have room to up the Rouge aircraft to 120 economy seats from the Mainline 106 economy seats. That way they could have still kept their SE/FF and business flyers happy while still cramming in more pax than the mainline A319 carries and with the pilot/FA contract savings and other Rouge cost saving measures they still would have been able to claim improved numbers over the mainline product....and not have gotten the horrible marketing and media exposure they are now getting.
I think the greed factor got magnified too far this time.

If you put 10% less seats in a 319 versus a 737-7 then you need to charge 10% more for the same revenue. WJ puts 136 in their 700's. To be competitive on a revenue stand point AC needs the equivalent amount of seats. The leisure market has razor thin margins.

If enough premium revenue is generated the seat count can drop. If the premium revenue is not there the seat match needs to remain to stay competitive.

Obviously leisure isn't producing much premium revenue hence the requirement to dense up to the competition.

I do think AC should be putting a better seat in premium rouge tho.

[rudder]

If you put 10% less seats in a 319 versus a 737-7 then you need to charge 10% more for the same revenue. WJ puts 136 in their 700's. To be competitive on a revenue stand point AC needs the equivalent amount of seats. The leisure market has razor thin margins.

If enough premium revenue is generated the seat count can drop. If the premium revenue is not there the seat match needs to remain to stay competitive.

Obviously leisure isn't producing much premium revenue hence the requirement to dense up to the competition.

I do think AC should be putting a better seat in premium rouge tho.

The 319 is the absolute wrong aircraft to be using on 'leisure' routes, particularly when the competition is running B737-700/800's. The per seat cost differential is huge. I am not even sure that the all-in trip cost on the 319 is less than the 737. Rouge will need a plan to bridge to the 737 MAX. A good first step would be to put the 320's on the routes. However, in order for any of this to happen it will require the concurrence of ACPA.

CR is in love with Rouge. And while some believe that the product is simply cannibalizing existing AC revenue, the attraction is the de facto discounted labour costs. I am certain that the major sticking point for ACPA is the projected size of Rouge and the rate of route transfer in an environment where the Rouge pilots get less credit for service and lower pay rates while the pilots that did not bid over are watching their pool of mainline flying shrink precipitously.

It would seem that both parties have a vested interest in a better outcome than status quo.

[Old fella]

Would it be silly to suggest at some point down the road(who knows when), AC Mainline will be just a B787/777 operation on established high yield profitable international routes. The domestic and so called "leisure" market will the that of Rouge and whatever configuration of Air Canada Express with whatever aircraft.

I know jack shit about airlines but this is my uninformed opinion...........

[DH772]

We, the high end travellers, will make or break your bottom line

I don't believe that. AC may lose a lot of high end travelers but do you really think AC didn't take into the account switching mainline flight to high density seating flight and losing business travelers? IMHO I think the extra revenue you make with crammed seats, day in and day out will out weigh losing the high end travelers on certain routes. Majority of flying public isn't rich, so why cater a market towards that if it is not selling as you would have hoped. Look at southwest.

.and not have gotten the horrible marketing and media exposure they are now getting.
I think the greed factor got magnified too far this time.

Horrible media exposure? Do you really think that is something new? It doesn't matter what AC does, they media and flying public will find something to bash on. Other day CBC released an article how air travel could change in Canada with AC new 787. About 20% of the article was discussing this new fancy bird. The other 80% was bashing AC and how they're at fault for everything.

I find it hard to believe that Rouge won't offer even a small discount for degraded seat pitch and degraded entertainment options. If true then.....

Why would they???? Does AC look like a charity to you? They are charging market value for the ticket just like every other airline is charging here in Canada. If they are filling all their seats at XX amount why would they drop the cost by $50? To be nice? To make you happy? To make you a loyal customer. ha impossible.

I have family members who have been upgraded to first class in the past (for different reasons), been treated like gold and heard comments how it was the best flight of their life. Yet 6 months later, there they were flying on WJ because it was $20 cheaper.

It's a business. That simple.