Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

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yycflyguy
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#26 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:10 pm

Rookie50 wrote:
FL410 wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:If it helps, there are 5 (I think) HD 777. They try to deploy them on the YVR-HKG segment. Depending on where in Asia you are going the YYC-NRT, YVR-ICN, YVR-PVG is mainline B767, YYZ-PVG, YYZ-PEK, and YYZ-HKG are normally the "normal" configuration B777. Most of the European hubs are A330, B777 (normal config) and B767 mainline. Like I said, most.

The HD 777 does suck. Please take the time to write and complain. They need to hear it.
The 777 HD runs on quite a few more routes than that:

YVR-YYZ
YVR-HKG
YVR-LHR
YUL-CDG
YUL-YYZ

others?

I only had to ride it from YVR-YYZ, but it was miserable for a tall guy.
Yeah -- thinking this is going to be the way it is, everywhere. That's the model. I fly too and will tell you I am willing to fly many more flights myself to avoid the airlines, too, if I can.

I will be YYZ - HKG, late fall so who knows what they do by then. The old 777 in economy is OK, and great in business. Don't know why they would alienate their business pax (usually I'm economy). 3-4 hrs or less, I can do anything. When your talking 8,12 hours plus, becomes a real issue the seating.
I agree. I hope you take the time to complain to the company. They need to hear it.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#27 Post by CSk3RampBOY » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Rookie50 wrote:
duranium wrote:
dukepoint wrote:http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1361925 ... -to-hawaii

I've heard the legroom is bad enough on those 3-4 hour flights. How long is YYZ-HNL??

Plus, the YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG routes will be converted from Mainline to Rouge as well. It seems that the Rouge empire is expanding with no signs of slowing down.

If someone told you they'd pay you $35/hour to sit in a 29" pitch seat and watch streamed video on your Ipad, would you do it?

For every 20 bucks someone saves on a ticket, they have to earn about $35 before tax. If a 4 hour flight is $100 cheeper because it's a Rouge flight, how many "average" Canadians would say, "...no thanks, I'll pay the extra $100 to get the extra 2 inches of legroom for 4 hours on a regular Mainline flight." I'm guessing most average Canadian's work hard for their money, and realize the value of a dollar, so not many. If the difference was only $50 on a 4 hour flight, I'd still say "not many"...........Air Canada marketing understands this, pilots do not. Our Rouge flights are full. I expect YYZ-HNL to be full as well. More often than you'd expect, a figure as low as $5 can make the difference between a customer making a choice between AC and WJ leaving YVR at the same time, on a 6 hour flight to Hawaii.

2 lost inches can be forgotten aweful quickly at Duke's with the booze 50 extra bucks will buy.

DP.
Well, you are wrong honey. I am a frequent flyer, use premium economy and J and will pay the extra 100 or so for that legroom.Travelling in economy on your " new" 777-300 overseas is downright unconfortable all the time and painful some of the time. Last flight was in premium and my next seat person, a very well travelled IT company CO told me that, given the " Air Canada" approach to Customer confort, he would be giving Air France a serious shot at his business as well as BA. This is not the first time in the last year that I was told something along those lines. If it is convenient, I should also be looking at those same options. And before some of you write us off, remember this very important fact. We, the high end travellers, will make or break your bottom line. Second thing to ponder is this. Someone will build a better mouse trap than yours and then, with your narrow view , you will be left holding the bag. Facts of life that many at your company, including your CO, have dismissed as figments of the imagination.

+1, to me it's all about the real estate on these really long flights. I am going to both Eastern Europe and Asia this year. I'll be looking at Cathay or someone for the Asia trip, as AC has now gone to this horrible high density 777. It's getting so bad I'd rather fly on an old dirty airplane with zero service than a new one with a 29 pitch and worse, 18 inch wide seats. Torture on a 12 or 15 hour flight.

I also from what I read don't trust AC not to switch me from mainline to rouge or something after I book, like I've read about. That's not cool at all.
DP and rookie, you both are blindly expressing your discontent instead of understand where and how the 777HDs are being deployed. As mentioned on this post, they are used for high density low yielding routes such as YUL-CDG, so they can compete. Most of the premium international routes will be unaffected, as the same 777w remain for the moment.

Duranium, the only person with a "narrow view" is yourself. You mention exploring Air France as an option, well let's compare apples to apples. Air France started the high destiny 773 with 468pax, as suppose to AC 458pax. http://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes-se ... ocean.html Same config as well (3-4-3). Furthermore, for Canadian premium travelers as you claim to be, it appears that AC has 36 J class seats with AF having only 14. So for the sake of keeping this argument relevant, your rhetoric is contradictory.
Furthermore, a simple pricing exercise will show that they charge the same amount between AF 349 (777HD) and AF (343) which leaves the same day.

Rookie, I fail to see how this is even relevant to your travels to eastern europe? Assuming that you're departing out of YYZ, your travel plans should be unaffected as you won't encounter the 777HD. If you are leaving out of YVR, then yes the 777HD is doing YVR-LHR. But in that case, just take LH to FRA to connect. If you are going east bound to asia via YVR, all you have to do is avoid YVR-HKG. You have plenty of opportunities via NRT or ICN (PEK, PVG if you have a connect visa). Don't use this opportunity to blast a smart business move when it's not even relevant to your travels.

YYCflyguy. I appreciate the fact that you are much concerned about the product, but players such as AF/KLM & TS enjoy significant cost advantages on low yielding routes. YUL-CDG is the best example of that as both AF and TS pack their aircraft to the max (especially TS). You can have up to 7X daily to CDG (3 AF, 2 TS, 1 AC, 1SS). AF also enjoys market advantage with their CDG global hub unlike AC being a dead end route. The company needs to evolve and respond to market conditions.

For the record I flew the 777HD twice to CDG and found it to be alright. The new IFE was significantly better then the previous generational one on all other current aircraft.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#28 Post by duranium » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:05 am

May I suggest looking at the website Seat Plans.com and visualise both AC and AF high density interiors. That should explain the difference in the total number of seats. Also, with a little digging, you should notice that AC's total alloted space per passenger ( width, pitch ) in economy is the smallest when compared to AF and BA. AC's seat cushion structure is the most unconfortable of the 3 Airlines. Also, AF is in an upgrade of all their seats on the 777-300er. Guess where the paying passengers will be migrating to in the not to distant future. Your slant suggests that you must be getting the good seats for free, as a perk, we, on the other hand, pay for them and AC treating the paying public like so many sardines is not my definition of quality travel. As I write this, AF is building a better mouse trap.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#29 Post by TheStig » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:19 am

yycflyguy wrote:If it helps, there are 5 (I think) HD 777.
Air Canada to add seats on existing 777s to drive down unit costs

Air Canada plans to spend $300 million to add seats and a premium economy section to its fleet of existing Boeing 777-300ER and 777-200LR aircraft, and expects a payback period on that investment of less than three years.

Beginning in late 2015 and continuing through 2016 Air Canada plans to reconfigure 12 of its 777-300ERs with an additional 51 seats and its six -200LRs with 31 additional seats. The carrier is extending its premium economy product to those aircraft and reconfiguring the business class section to mirror the business class cabin on its 787 featuring 180 degree full-flat seats.

Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu deemed the new configuration as more competitive, noting the business case for increasing the density on those aircraft is “highly compelling”.

Presently most of Air Canadaʼs 777-300ERs feature a two-class configuration with 42 international business class seats and 307 in economy. The additional 51 seats result in 400-seat configuration. The airlineʼs 777-200LRʼs currently feature 228 economy class seats and 42 in international business, and once the planned configurations are complete seating on those aircraft increases to 300.

Rovinescu stressed that the new configurations on the 777s will not reach the 458-seat density of five new 777-300ERs the carrier has added to its fleet during the last year. Those aircraft are tools “designed specifically for designated markets”, Rovincescu explained. Air Canada targets markets with those higher-density 777s featuring a higher number of leisure passengers and presently operates the aircraft on service from Montreal to Paris, Vancouver to Hong Kong and and London Heathrow and Toronto to Vancouver. Flights from Montreal to London Heathrow begin in June and continue through the end of September.

Previously, Air Canada estimated that the additional seats on the mission-specific 777s offer a 21% reduction in unit costs compared to the 777s in their current configuration. While it seems the planned new layout for the carrierʼs other 777s may create a tighter pitch in economy, the cost savings are likely too good for the carrier to pass up.

But Rovinescu also stressed Air Canada was aiming to make the product on those aircraft more consistent with the 787. The carrierʼs 787s feature three class seating – 20 in business, 21 in premium economy and 210 in economy. Business class seats on Air Canadaʼs 787s also fully recline. The delivery flight of Air Canadaʼs first 787 is scheduled for May 18.

Air Canada deems the planned new configurations a win win as CFO Michael Rousseau concluded the additional seats would harmonize the carrierʼs product offerings and create a unit cost improvement.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#30 Post by Lowjack » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:19 am

Has there been any mention of the YYC-OGG/HNL winter ops changing to Rouge?

I have heard that it ties in nicely (aircraft availability) with the YYC-NRT flight and that is why it stayed as a mainline 763 last year.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#31 Post by Rookie50 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:48 am

TheStig wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:If it helps, there are 5 (I think) HD 777.
Air Canada to add seats on existing 777s to drive down unit costs

Air Canada plans to spend $300 million to add seats and a premium economy section to its fleet of existing Boeing 777-300ER and 777-200LR aircraft, and expects a payback period on that investment of less than three years.

Beginning in late 2015 and continuing through 2016 Air Canada plans to reconfigure 12 of its 777-300ERs with an additional 51 seats and its six -200LRs with 31 additional seats. The carrier is extending its premium economy product to those aircraft and reconfiguring the business class section to mirror the business class cabin on its 787 featuring 180 degree full-flat seats.

Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu deemed the new configuration as more competitive, noting the business case for increasing the density on those aircraft is “highly compelling”.

Presently most of Air Canadaʼs 777-300ERs feature a two-class configuration with 42 international business class seats and 307 in economy. The additional 51 seats result in 400-seat configuration. The airlineʼs 777-200LRʼs currently feature 228 economy class seats and 42 in international business, and once the planned configurations are complete seating on those aircraft increases to 300.

Rovinescu stressed that the new configurations on the 777s will not reach the 458-seat density of five new 777-300ERs the carrier has added to its fleet during the last year. Those aircraft are tools “designed specifically for designated markets”, Rovincescu explained. Air Canada targets markets with those higher-density 777s featuring a higher number of leisure passengers and presently operates the aircraft on service from Montreal to Paris, Vancouver to Hong Kong and and London Heathrow and Toronto to Vancouver. Flights from Montreal to London Heathrow begin in June and continue through the end of September.

Previously, Air Canada estimated that the additional seats on the mission-specific 777s offer a 21% reduction in unit costs compared to the 777s in their current configuration. While it seems the planned new layout for the carrierʼs other 777s may create a tighter pitch in economy, the cost savings are likely too good for the carrier to pass up.

But Rovinescu also stressed Air Canada was aiming to make the product on those aircraft more consistent with the 787. The carrierʼs 787s feature three class seating – 20 in business, 21 in premium economy and 210 in economy. Business class seats on Air Canadaʼs 787s also fully recline. The delivery flight of Air Canadaʼs first 787 is scheduled for May 18.

Air Canada deems the planned new configurations a win win as CFO Michael Rousseau concluded the additional seats would harmonize the carrierʼs product offerings and create a unit cost improvement.
This is the model AC is choosing. I can't imagine one of those HD 777's or anything close from YYZ to HKG. What also is unacceptable is AC switching people booked on mainline to rouge without their consent. It's a different product, clearly, and an absolute marketing nightmare.

Defenders will say you are getting cheaper fares like Ryanair but please -- you can fly Ryanair for under $50. Let me know when you see that. As for my upcoming trips this year, I'm going elsewhere, likely Cathay pacific and BA or LH for my other trip. I'll pay more, I don't care (but I doubt I will) I don't trust AC not to "rouge" me in some form. AC will learn the hard way there is no loyalty, and once you screw people over -- at least your regulars, they don't come back.

I've been loyal AC for every trip for sometime. That's gone. I'd rather go coast to coast in my own 182 -- plan to this year -- than spend 6 hours on one of those A319's. Seats are light years better.

As a businessman too I can't believe the marketing stupidity here, either. And they have a FB page and were deleting every negative comment? Shows the mentality.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#32 Post by TheStig » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:55 am

Rookie50 wrote:
TheStig wrote: Beginning in late 2015 and continuing through 2016 Air Canada plans to reconfigure 12 of its 777-300ERs with an additional 51 seats and its six -200LRs with 31 additional seats. The carrier is extending its premium economy product to those aircraft and reconfiguring the business class section to mirror the business class cabin on its 787 featuring 180 degree full-flat seats.
This is the model AC is choosing. I can't imagine one of those HD 777's or anything close from YYZ to HKG. What also is unacceptable is AC switching people booked on mainline to rouge without their consent. It's a different product, clearly, and an absolute marketing nightmare.

Defenders will say you are getting cheaper fares like Ryanair but please -- you can fly Ryanair for under $50. Let me know when you see that. As for my upcoming trips this year, I'm going elsewhere, likely Cathay pacific and BA or LH for my other trip. I'll pay more, I don't care (but I doubt I will) I don't trust AC not to "rouge" me in some form. AC will learn the hard way there is no loyalty, and once you screw people over -- at least your regulars, they don't come back.
Hey man, if you want to write angry posts about Air Canada, go for it; it's a national past time. I'd just like to point out a few things though, I don't think defenders are saying you're getting cheaper flights? This is about AC reducing it's CASM to a point where it can compete.

What's it's looking at providing is 3 products; Executive class, a comfortable economy seat for travellers (such as yourself who have stated "I'll pay more, I don't care".), and a cheap seat for travellers who only shop on price. Complain all you want, but they've done you a favour, before your options to Europe were $500 in economy class or 3500 in Executive class. Now you can travel for 500 in economy, 700 in premium economy, or 3500 in executive class.

Also, as stated in the article the reconfigured 777's are going to have the seating density as the 5 HD aircraft, they'll have about 50 fewer seats (on the -300ER).
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#33 Post by Genetk44 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:16 pm

TheStig wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
TheStig wrote: Beginning in late 2015 and continuing through 2016 Air Canada plans to reconfigure 12 of its 777-300ERs with an additional 51 seats and its six -200LRs with 31 additional seats. The carrier is extending its premium economy product to those aircraft and reconfiguring the business class section to mirror the business class cabin on its 787 featuring 180 degree full-flat seats.
This is the model AC is choosing. I can't imagine one of those HD 777's or anything close from YYZ to HKG. What also is unacceptable is AC switching people booked on mainline to rouge without their consent. It's a different product, clearly, and an absolute marketing nightmare.

Defenders will say you are getting cheaper fares like Ryanair but please -- you can fly Ryanair for under $50. Let me know when you see that. As for my upcoming trips this year, I'm going elsewhere, likely Cathay pacific and BA or LH for my other trip. I'll pay more, I don't care (but I doubt I will) I don't trust AC not to "rouge" me in some form. AC will learn the hard way there is no loyalty, and once you screw people over -- at least your regulars, they don't come back.
Hey man, if you want to write angry posts about Air Canada, go for it; it's a national past time. I'd just like to point out a few things though, I don't think defenders are saying you're getting cheaper flights? This is about AC reducing it's CASM to a point where it can compete.

What's it's looking at providing is 3 products; Executive class, a comfortable economy seat for travellers (such as yourself who have stated "I'll pay more, I don't care".), and a cheap seat for travellers who only shop on price. Complain all you want, but they've done you a favour, before your options to Europe were $500 in economy class or 3500 in Executive class. Now you can travel for 500 in economy, 700 in premium economy, or 3500 in executive class.

Also, as stated in the article the reconfigured 777's are going to have the seating density as the 5 HD aircraft, they'll have about 50 fewer seats (on the -300ER).
Stig...have you flown Rouge yet? Have you flown in the new slimline seats yet? Before telling us about the comfort of the seats maybe you should. And please don't tell me that Air Canada is " doing me a favour" to use your words....I've been flying commercial airlines for over 50 years, Air Canada and BA in particular but other European, US and Asian also so I know when the product is an improvement or a downgrade....and Air Canada has not done me any favours with Rouge or the HD product.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#34 Post by Rookie50 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:19 pm

TheStig wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
TheStig wrote: Beginning in late 2015 and continuing through 2016 Air Canada plans to reconfigure 12 of its 777-300ERs with an additional 51 seats and its six -200LRs with 31 additional seats. The carrier is extending its premium economy product to those aircraft and reconfiguring the business class section to mirror the business class cabin on its 787 featuring 180 degree full-flat seats.
This is the model AC is choosing. I can't imagine one of those HD 777's or anything close from YYZ to HKG. What also is unacceptable is AC switching people booked on mainline to rouge without their consent. It's a different product, clearly, and an absolute marketing nightmare.

Defenders will say you are getting cheaper fares like Ryanair but please -- you can fly Ryanair for under $50. Let me know when you see that. As for my upcoming trips this year, I'm going elsewhere, likely Cathay pacific and BA or LH for my other trip. I'll pay more, I don't care (but I doubt I will) I don't trust AC not to "rouge" me in some form. AC will learn the hard way there is no loyalty, and once you screw people over -- at least your regulars, they don't come back.
Hey man, if you want to write angry posts about Air Canada, go for it; it's a national past time. I'd just like to point out a few things though, I don't think defenders are saying you're getting cheaper flights? This is about AC reducing it's CASM to a point where it can compete.

What's it's looking at providing is 3 products; Executive class, a comfortable economy seat for travellers (such as yourself who have stated "I'll pay more, I don't care".), and a cheap seat for travellers who only shop on price. Complain all you want, but they've done you a favour, before your options to Europe were $500 in economy class or 3500 in Executive class. Now you can travel for 500 in economy, 700 in premium economy, or 3500 in executive class.

Also, as stated in the article the reconfigured 777's are going to have the seating density as the 5 HD aircraft, they'll have about 50 fewer seats (on the -300ER).
AC has had great service for me for a lot of years. I'm just commenting more on the bait and switch, just don't think its a great way to endear trust in your customers. AC can pursue any business model they wish.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#35 Post by conehead » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:33 pm

Old fella wrote:Would it be silly to suggest at some point down the road(who knows when), AC Mainline will be just a B787/777 operation on established high yield profitable international routes. The domestic and so called "leisure" market will the that of Rouge and whatever configuration of Air Canada Express with whatever aircraft.

I know jack shit about airlines but this is my uninformed opinion...........

:partyman:
Lot's of people share this opinion. Time will tell, but I think you're correct.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#36 Post by TheStig » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:34 pm

Rookie50 wrote: AC has had great service for me for a lot of years. I'm just commenting more on the bait and switch, just don't think its a great way to endear trust in your customers. AC can pursue any business model they wish.
Ok got'cha, I was commenting on the refurbishment of the 777's to a 10 abreast seating arrangement in Y class. Which I figured was separate from rouge (although the thread drifting back and forth makes things difficult to pin down). I completely agree that the roll-out of rouge has been fumbled. Many employees have internally voiced their discontent to management that the mainline brand has/is been/being poached. The LCC could have been created entirely separate from the parent company, and very few passengers could have even known they were on board an "Air Canada" product, this was obviously not done. As a result passengers unknowing bought seats on rouge others actually had rouge flights substituted after purchase, while neither situation is ideal, I was told those who actually had flights substituted were offered refunds if they wished.

Genetk44,
Nice to hear from you. I also can't afford a vacation, so I haven't flown on rouge. However, I have dead headed across the continent on a (very full) 777 HD, and have no issues with the slim line seats, although on an overseas flight I'd certainly be looking for a Y+ seat.

Maybe my choice of words wasn't perfect, but my point is the same as we've discussed before. The industry is and has been changing, this is the expedia.com world, baby booming business traveller are turning into leisure travellers, and people want cheap seats. 60%-70% of the floor space will be occupied by seats for such people, for those willing to pay more, more comfortable seats are available. I don't think I, or anyone has, said the HD product is an improvement, but rather that its required for Air Canada (and others) to serve markets. You've expressly voiced your discontent here, try writing to these guys, maybe they'll sway you to continue providing AC with your business (and give some free points):

Air Canada - Customer Relations
PO Box 64239,
RPO Thorncliffe - Calgary, AB
Canada T2K 6J7
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Re: Air Canada Rouge to Begin Toronto Direct to Honolulu

#37 Post by Genetk44 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:19 am

Stig....thanks for the comments...believe me I get why AC is doing what they are doing, I have voiced my thoughts to AC management. And I have no problem with AC or flying AC mainline...i dont like the Rouge product and I think the slimline seats ,at least the ones on the A319s are terrible. Oh...and not everybody flying Rouge is on vacation.

The other thing about the Rouge refund issue....Air Canada only came out with that policy after many hundreds of complaints,bad press on social media and mainstream media in an attempt at damage control....and to my knowledge it wasn't retroactive for those affected before the refund policy.
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