Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#101 Post by Mach1 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:56 am

BE20 Driver wrote:Even at 65% of a mainline wage, it's a pay INCREASE for a guy in the first 3 years at mainline. That includes everyone who ever started at Encore.
65% of a year 1 captain at WJ is 85,000/year. A year 3 FO makes more than that, a year 2 FO who works a small amount of overtime makes more than that. Under the current hiring conditions, I bet I can find you a King Air job that pays more than that, works less that 20 days a month and you sleep in your own bed every night. I can definitely find you a Lear Jet captain position making more than 100,000+. So, I'm not sure what your thought process is but if it's all about the dollars then you are heading down the wrong path.
BE20 Driver wrote:Why is it a raise? Because no one actually stood up and did anything when Encore's wages were announced or the announcement that we would start at the bottom of the pay scale when we flowed over. Sure, I had lots of appologies, but no one actually took any action (one guy brought us donuts to feed us on a deadhead.)
Bull Shit! Oh sure, we could have gone on strike... oh wait, we couldn't have gone on strike because we were not legally entitled. Work to rule? But without protection against retaliation and firings? I'm open to suggestion here BE20. What could we have done that was not done? We fought, they said no. That was that. For you to say no one fought is a fucking insult to every pilot you work with and I sincerely hope that if this is your attitude that you leave because not only do you have no clue what was done for you but you have no appreciation of those who fought for you and this statement has insulted everyone who was at work the day GS started Encore. If you have anger issues, focus them on the actual people responsible for your pay.
BE20 Driver wrote:The guys who I've run into that are screaming BOTL so much are mostly guys that came here when upgrades were significantly shorter than they are now. Don't try to tell me what it's like at the bottom of the list these days. You have no clue what the struggle is like taking the pay cut to fly the 737. What if a YVR-YYZ commuter decided to take a whoops captain spot for 10% less. You're going to tell him not to do it because it will negatively affect your pay cheque. Everyone has a reason for considering this. The opportunities and challenges that you had in your career are not the same as the ones that I'm presented with.
What a rant! I took a pay-cut to come work for WJ when I started (in fact, everyone I've ever met took a pay-cut to go work at a major regardless of which major it was), and I started for less than you did and don't even try to go with the inflation argument. I started at the original 1996 starting wage after the housing prices had already tripled or more. I was impressed when I saw the guys at the top of the pay scale negotiate less of a raise for themselves so the new hires could go from 40,000/year to 55,000/year because everyone knew the new guys needed more money (a wage that was far higher than Air Canada's first year wage, I might add). It was too late for me as I was out of my first year by the time that deal was done but I supported it. My 8+ years journey to the left seat will likely be the peak of upgrade times. So stop bitching about how bad you've got it in life and start working to make things better rather than worse.
BE20 Driver wrote:PIC time is king. Maybe if you tie my two rants together you'll see that some people are considering this as the way out the door. I'm tired of starting my career over just above the poverty line.
So you've got 4 bars in your eyes? If you think flying the same machine around the sky for 65% of what I'm making while simultaneously complaining that the Air Canada pilots make more, you have no one to blame for wages but yourself. You can't wait a couple of years because you deserve everything now but it doesn't matter what path you choose, you will have to wait. Go to Air Canada at the bottom of their list. 4 years to an upgrade... well, you've already said you are 2+ years into WJ with upgrades running at 7 years and falling that's... 4 years to an upgrade. But enjoy that status pay. Go overseas... most decent contracts want 2000 hours of command time at just over 2 more years at a wage that is less than an FO gets paid. But you go for it. Just don't expect a lot of sympathy. And here's one last thought for you, did Flair have one list with Kelowna Flight Craft? All one owner, one union shop, one non-union shop.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#102 Post by Airtids » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:53 am

^ ^ ^ Yup!
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#103 Post by Alcoholism » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:25 am

Mach1 wrote:. Go to Air Canada .
He's definitely Air Canada material
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#104 Post by FICU » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:15 am

If the WJ pilot group accepts a B-scale WAWCON to operate pink planes the future for mainline is being Swooped from under them. WJ will expand Swoop into mainline routes as they did with Encore. Swoop will grow and mainline will stagnate and or recess. Look at how former AC routes have been Rogued.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#105 Post by seriousflyer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:58 am

Yup I agree.
ALPA reinforcement was called in and put in place at the exact right time. However, we (pilots) are not running the company, the board of directors are, we just work there. Our best chance is staying untied as professionals, this means Encore and Westjet pilots togther. When the company tries to negotiate unfavorable WAWCONs our group can stand as one voice and negotiate back and not have two groups whipsawwing. CEO from AC got it right with his 10 year labour agreement that made AC a very desirable place to land your career, and Southwest CEO did the same. I hope Westjet can layout awesome terms, you know with this pilot shortage....
My 2 cents.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#106 Post by Dangerous Goods » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:09 am

Mach1 wrote:Bull Shit! Oh sure, we could have gone on strike... oh wait, we couldn't have gone on strike because we were not legally entitled. Work to rule? But without protection against retaliation and firings? I'm open to suggestion here BE20. What could we have done that was not done? We fought, they said no. That was that. For you to say no one fought is a fucking insult to every pilot you work with and I sincerely hope that if this is your attitude that you leave because not only do you have no clue what was done for you but you have no appreciation of those who fought for you and this statement has insulted everyone who was at work the day GS started Encore. If you have anger issues, focus them on the actual people responsible for your pay.
Not quite true, we didn't say "no" to Encore. 89% of the pilots voted yes to Encore. However, we voted in favour based on executive promise and lies, accompanied by aggressive lobbying from the WJPA. Ask one WJ pilot today if they voted "yes" for Encore - they'll say that they didn't. Why? Because we're ashamed of what we allowed and embarrassed that we were so easily deceived. But, this all had to happen - One of the many reason we can't trust certain executives and why we needed strong and independent representation. Yes, we made mistakes as a pilot group, but that doesn't mean we're destined to make them again.

So yes, BE20, you're partially correct about the creation of Encore. However, using that as an excuse to make further mistakes and continue to lower the bar is ridiculous. You say in one breathe "I suffered because of Encore and the mistakes of the WJ pilots before me" , and in the next breath you say "I support lower WAWCON if it means I can upgrade sooner". Hypocrite!
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#107 Post by seriousflyer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:38 am

No one is perfect and nothing is perfect. If some Westjet pilots feel they made a mistake by believing mgmt on WAWCON that Encore was going to get, they have learned from that. That's called maturing...
What's happening now, in my eyes, is the westjet pilots are standing up and trying to stick up for the younger and early career pilots. They best guys in the industry now are the pilots making $300K and are fighting for better WAWCONs for the younger generation. These pilots can look past their pay cheques and materials to remember where they came from. I 've talked to a FEW young friends that are RPs on the 787 at AC and have listened to the 55+ captain talk about how "we will help you guys out if you help us out" (aka. protecting pension and we will protect mainline and YOS), and lord be know it, they are all getting along under the best WAWCONs in Canada. Same tbins is happening at Westjet, if pilots want to help each other, senior pilots are askkng for ALPA support and we will help wih one list and no "B scale" at Swoop. Nothing gets me more upset than hearing the top guys or the training guys who are making excellent money (encore specific too) and have no consideration of the bigger picture or 90% of the pilot group.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#108 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:22 am

Mach1 wrote:65% of a year 1 captain at WJ is 85,000/year. A year 3 FO makes more than that, a year 2 FO who works a small amount of overtime makes more than that.
That's a work more for more money equation. It takes until step 5 to get beyond the 65% mark without doing overtime. With new fatigue regs, you might be greatly limited in what you can do. Also, the 65% number you guys are throwing out is just a number that at the moment has no basis other than the rumour mill. Fact is, we don't know.
BE20 Driver wrote:Why is it a raise? Because no one actually stood up and did anything when Encore's wages were announced or the announcement that we would start at the bottom of the pay scale when we flowed over. Sure, I had lots of appologies, but ...)
Alright, this one I'll withdraw. It was meant more as a dig against the WJPA and not you as an individual. I saw how hard they fought for a lot of the encore issues. They sure didn't break much of a sweat. i agree that we didn't have protections in place that we would with ALPA. I also had a couple of mainline guys get all bent out of shape about Encore stealing their flying since some of the smaller routes went to Encore. They failed to realize that the jets were being redeployed to other markets and only focused on the perception of encore taking their flying.
Mach1 wrote:I was impressed when I saw the guys at the top of the pay scale negotiate less of a raise for themselves so the new hires could go from 40,000/year to 55,000/year because everyone knew the new guys needed more money (a wage that was far higher than Air Canada's first year wage, I might add).
That kind of thing isn't happening any more. The only thing the guys at the top are concerned about is seniority and getting the most for their ALPA dollars. It's time we broke the cycle of making people going from one division of the company to another having to take a pay cut. That can't be accomplished by further dividing and severing small groups.

Mach1 wrote:Go to Air Canada at the bottom of their list. 4 years to an upgrade... .
Current upgrades at AC can be had in 18-24 months. This is why Encore pilots are heading there in droves right now. Once the Maxes arrive, projections have a left seat available in a year or maybe less.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#109 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:35 am

Hear me out. I'm not advocating for a B-Scale. I want it to be flown by WestJet Pilots, at our current rates. I am just saying that I can understand that there are reasons why people might go there even if it's lower. When WestJet was launched, AC and Canadian pilots said the same thing about WS's original pay - don't go there you're supporting a race to the bottom. Still the royal family that came did so because it wasn't AC or Canadian. Things were different. They found value in trading X pay for y benefit.

I can't stand hearing the BOTL argument because it is another artificial division in the pilot group. I think it will work against us, not for us.

If you send anyone going to whoops to the bottom of the list, you'll only get guys from the bottom of the encore list. That's it. No one with more than 6 months seniority will give up as much as a couple numbers. The leases have been extended and the planes are being painted. This thing is going. So where do we get pilots? Management will find 100 guys from the street if they have to. FO's will be street hires or 1000 hour Encore pilots. 100% of the captains will come from the street. How much control will you have then? You don't think that'll create two greatly divided groups who just whipsaw for Gregg's table scraps. I don't want a separate pay scale but what I really don't want is two mutually exclusive groups competing against each other. Exclusivity won't fix this problem. Some form of unity will. What would have happened if rouge was launched with a totally separate list and no flowback rights? Whipsawing.

The swoop pilots will constantly work to undercut mainline because we shut them out. The only way they grow is if mainline shrinks. Clive wants swoop to be a reset of our legacy costs and culture. Watch Clive move the 600's to swoop for the lower cost. He'd love that. We have no scope protecting that now so it's not impossible. Next Gregg comes to mainline and says it's time to retire the 767's. Swoop gets a deal on some wide body machines. Now you'll have 767's at swoop on a bscale and we will be having a discussion about moving just a few 787's there for the low yield routes. Conspiracy theory? Maybe.

None of us wants a divided group. Taking a BOTL stand just enforces the divide. We should stick together but do it by supporting guys and understanding why someone might choose to go there.

We have to capture 100% of the flying with our pilots. Offer an LOA and number retention at best but don't be divisive and drive a wedge right where Gregg wants one.

It's taken the Rouge pilots a few years but they are closing the gap because they have a mutual relationship with mainline. This can happen here too if we don't divide the groups. Keep the flying with our pilots at their current places on the list and work to close the gap.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#110 Post by Mr. North » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:03 pm

Completely agree with BE20 Driver. All this sanctimonious talk about "lowering the bar" is divisive and pointless. For as long as pilots fly aircraft there will be pilots taking jobs at substandard pay. This is simply because, for whatever reason, it works for them. It wasn't all that long ago when everyone on here was bad mouthing anyone who came to Encore, with their abysmal WAWCON. Guess what? Their working conditions are still horrible by most standards yet we have over 450 pilots now (not to mention the couple hundred who have already flowed). Are we all aviation-wrecking bottom feeders? No. So if in fact Swoop offers substandard pay, I will not be impressed but I also won't cast stones at anyone who takes up their offer. They have their reasons to accept such a position. Who am I to deride others for accepting something that I, in their life/career position, would most likely accept? Have any of you EVER sacrificed an advancement for the betterment of our profession? To protect the wages of pilots (including many who likely stepped over a few people during their own ascent) and in no way support you? Lets get real here folks. I've been in this industry for over 15 years and preaching/insulting junior pilots doesn't change the FACT that they will take whatever job works for them. So lets stop repeating history and try another approach shall we?

Like BE20, I'm of the same opinion that it is vital for Swoop pilots to be included going forward. It won't be easy, and no one knows exactly what's in store re WAWCON, but as a group they pose a bigger threat to our livelihood if we cast them out and insult their life choices. Lets end this cycle of division, get everyone on the same team, and start moving our careers forward together.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#111 Post by Dangerous Goods » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:58 pm

Absolute rubbish..."We've always lowered the bar, why try and stop now"?? WTF??? LOL. That's just too insane to debate. Moving on...

Canadian? Air Canada? OG Westjet pilots? Oh boy, now you're digging deep. Come on man, THAT has nothing to do with this, and doesn't support an intent to continue on a destructive path. OG Westjet pilots came here because they were the outcasts of the industry - they couldn't get on at AC or Canadian. They were also guys who were coming back home from overseas work. Their reward wasn't a spot on a mainline carrier list. Their reward was financial gain from options. They took a risk and it paid off, unfortunately, they drove the bar lower for individual gain. That's a piss poor reason to support, or justify, repeating past mistakes. Past mistakes which need not be repeated, but you don't see it that way. Once again, very unfortunate....

So, it kinda sounds like you do want WJ pilots flying swoop planes at our rates. However, were it gets murky is when you say "If we can't though, I understand and support someone's decision to fly there, AND they should still have a spot on the mainline list". Ahhh? No, not at all...

That's the hard line in the sand, my friend. If you want to fly at swoop under a b scale, then fine. That's your prerogative, and who am I to deter you. Your reward will be jet pic and some overseas opportunity. If you stand strong and refuse such conditions, then your reward is a long and prosperous career on the WJ pilot list. You can't have both dude, and suggesting so is childish and entitled.

Here lies the hypocrisy in your arguments. You criticize original WJ pilots for lowering the bar, yet you're ok with that in the form of swoop AND you want to be rewarded with unfettered access to the mainline list. Unbelievable...
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#112 Post by DropTanks » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:14 pm

Why don't we cross this bridge when we get to it? I mean all of this is guesswork and conjecture at this point and there's no reason to start creating division when none is called for. Quick question...did AC pilots ostrisize guys for bidding Rouge? I don't think so. It also became a desirable position. Is it so inconceivable that the same can't happen with Swoop? I think what the guy is saying is that remuneration can take the form of something other than $$$. If a Abottsford base is desirable to some poor bastard commuting across the country why shouldn't he bid it? I'm not saying I want to see this because I am a YYZ resident and based and I just want to see Swoop flown at our rates. I just think we should remain open to many possibilities. Let's see what the negots committee presents us before flying off the handle.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#113 Post by altiplano » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:35 pm

Rouge became "desirable" because:

They took most of the best mainline 767 flying.

They took all the most productive mainline 320 flying.

It allowed guys left seat on a WB 1000 #'s out of seniority.

Now mainline flying suffers and we drag down mainline work conditions and pay to try to lift up rouge wawcon.

It's a big drag on us. It benefits a few, but hurts the whole.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#114 Post by DropTanks » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:51 pm

altiplano wrote:Rouge became "desirable" because:

They took most of the best mainline 767 flying.

They took all the most productive mainline 320 flying.

It allowed guys left seat on a WB 1000 #'s out of seniority.

Now mainline flying suffers and we drag down mainline work conditions and pay to try to lift up rouge wawcon.

It's a big drag on us. It benefits a few, but hurts the whole.
Roger that. But I think it's fair to say that everyone is better off if the flying is done by people on one seniority list. The whipsaw is groups is too destructive.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#115 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:41 am

DropTanks wrote:Why don't we cross this bridge when we get to it? I mean all of this is guesswork and conjecture at this point and there's no reason to start creating division when none is called for. Quick question...did AC pilots ostrisize guys for bidding Rouge? I don't think so. It also became a desirable position. Is it so inconceivable that the same can't happen with Swoop? I think what the guy is saying is that remuneration can take the form of something other than $$$. If a Abottsford base is desirable to some poor bastard commuting across the country why shouldn't he bid it? I'm not saying I want to see this because I am a YYZ resident and based and I just want to see Swoop flown at our rates. I just think we should remain open to many possibilities. Let's see what the negots committee presents us before flying off the handle.
Rouge wasn't imposed on AC pilots by management. It was negotiated into existence with ACPA (I guess with some Fed Government imposed pressure)
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#116 Post by atphat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:12 am

The creation of the LCC was voted down to the tune of 97%. It was then IMPOSED on the group through FOS.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#117 Post by True North » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:28 am

Dangerous Goods wrote:OG Westjet pilots came here because they were the outcasts of the industry - they couldn't get on at AC or Canadian. They were also guys who were coming back home from overseas work. Their reward wasn't a spot on a mainline carrier list. Their reward was financial gain from options. They took a risk and it paid off, unfortunately, they drove the bar lower for individual gain.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Typical. When you know nothing of history, invent some to support your argument.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#118 Post by Transonic » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:15 am

I don’t believe the comparison between AC/RV and WS/Swoop is fair.

Rouge was created to match AT/WS product and price on low yielding routes, which is a significantly larger market than the Canadian ULCC market.

The differences are significant:

-Swoop will have its own reservation system independent of sabre, therefore no network integration with WS.
-Swoop is branded in an opposite direction to WS. There will be nothing connecting it to WS. This is to prevent brand confusion which occurred with RV and being “Rouged”.
-Everything on Swoop will cost extra. If you need to speak to a CSA, that will cost you too. They may even advertise in the cabin.
-The market is “small.” To paraphrase a knowledgeable poster from another forum, “you can be sure that anything that touches YXX and YHM will be Swooped.”

The question really is, will it work. It will be hard to compete against US ULCCs given their structural advantages with airports and fees. There is no guarantee that Swoop will be successful in product market fit. The ULCC space is an unproven market and it may very well fail.

With regards to the one list, BOTL is already in place. The 2015 frozen contract only mentions pilots of WestJet and Encore can have positions on the WestJet Pilot Department List. If you leave to go to Swoop, Jetlines or Flair and then return to WS, it’s BOTL.

GS has stated he’s a fan of labour market forces. No doubt, as the market has always been in the employers favour leading to declining WAGCON. 2018 will be different. AC has 532 vacancies and hiring 30 pilots every 3 weeks. Below is the Encore upgrade matrix from a thread a few years old. I assume a similar matrix will be required for OTS 737 DE Captains.

As part of the risk assessment that was done - an internal matrix is now in place before you can upgrade:

Total Time / DHC-8-400 or similar Transport Category Aircraft *
4500 / 500
4000 / 500
3500 / 750
3000 / 1000
2500 / 1250
2000 / 1500



The labour supply for 737-800 DE Captains is much smaller than it is for Q400 turboprop captains. Any Captain at Sky/Georgian will most likely hold out for AC as they have invested time in the PML. Captains from say Canadian North/First Air/Air North/Nolinor are unlikely as many of those airlines are about lifestyle. Not to mention if Swoop fails, your BOTL at WS and may never see a left seat again. That’s a big gamble. So maybe the only supply are SKY Captains who were PFO’d from AC, FOs from other 737 operators and CargoJet.

Then there’s the elephant in the room. AC may continue to take 8 WS/Encore pilots every three weeks indefinitely. GS has promised Swoop by summer 2018 before the arrival of 787s in Q1 2019. The investors are worried that we may have two bifurcating strategies being executed at the same time. There is a lot of risk with the 787 expansion and the leadership cannot have any distractions.

If we keep BOTL, we may very well shut off the supply of pilots to Swoop. I believe for Q1/Q2 of 2018, the ball is in the pilot’s court.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#119 Post by Dangerous Goods » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:39 am

True North wrote:
Dangerous Goods wrote:OG Westjet pilots came here because they were the outcasts of the industry - they couldn't get on at AC or Canadian. They were also guys who were coming back home from overseas work. Their reward wasn't a spot on a mainline carrier list. Their reward was financial gain from options. They took a risk and it paid off, unfortunately, they drove the bar lower for individual gain.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Typical. When you know nothing of history, invent some to support your argument.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Typical. When you think you're smarter than you really are, act informed and say as little as possible.

My "outcast" remark was probably inappropriate and I apologize - I didn't mean any disrespect by that. I was trying to illustrate that "day oners" didn't come to WJ for a spot on a mainline list, and BE20 using them as a comparison to swoop wasn't appropriate or a good reason to continue lowering the bar. Talk to any day owner and they'll tell you - " we weren't sure this thing was going to work." or "I was overseas and Tim called asking if I wanted to work for an airline that they were starting". These guys came here with little information and a lot of doubt. What they DID NOT come for was a spot on a mainline list. They took a risk and were rewarded financially instead (options). That was their rewared, NOT unfettered access to a mainline pilot list AND options. However, in the process, they accepted work for lower than industry standard. Hence "lowered the bar"...

I know nothing of history though, so please educate us...

Can't wait for my history lesson, teach! :D
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#120 Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:23 pm

Transonic wrote:I don’t believe the comparison between AC/RV and WS/Swoop is fair.

Rouge was created to match AT/WS product and price on low yielding routes, which is a significantly larger market than the Canadian ULCC market.

The differences are significant:

-Swoop will have its own reservation system independent of sabre, therefore no network integration with WS.
-Swoop is branded in an opposite direction to WS. There will be nothing connecting it to WS. This is to prevent brand confusion which occurred with RV and being “Rouged”.
-Everything on Swoop will cost extra. If you need to speak to a CSA, that will cost you too. They may even advertise in the cabin.
-The market is “small.” To paraphrase a knowledgeable poster from another forum, “you can be sure that anything that touches YXX and YHM will be Swooped.”

The question really is, will it work. It will be hard to compete against US ULCCs given their structural advantages with airports and fees. There is no guarantee that Swoop will be successful in product market fit. The ULCC space is an unproven market and it may very well fail.

With regards to the one list, BOTL is already in place. The 2015 frozen contract only mentions pilots of WestJet and Encore can have positions on the WestJet Pilot Department List. If you leave to go to Swoop, Jetlines or Flair and then return to WS, it’s BOTL.
...

If we keep BOTL, we may very well shut off the supply of pilots to Swoop. I believe for Q1/Q2 of 2018, the ball is in the pilot’s court.
I couldn't agree more that it is a small market and the odds of Swoop ending up in the same dustbin of history as Zip, Tango, etc are possible. Now, if someone from WS did decide to go there and have swoop fold up in 6 months, you'll throw that guy to the street. That's not us man.

Encore didn't launch with a single seniority list. 6 months in, management finally conceded this was a mistake. Rouge maintains a single list with the ability to move between business units. Qantas gives their pilots an LOA to go fly for Jetstar. No one is forced to go to any of these airlines. Don't like it, don't go. Pilots choose what is best for them knowing that once they're in the door, they have a spot and choose airplanes and work based on what is available at the time and what suits them.

With regards to shutting off the supply of pilots, we are launching with 10 tails. That works out to about 100 pilots. Give or take, 50 Captains, 50 FO's. I guarantee there are 100 pilots in Canada that would take the risk and come to Swoop from other airlines. Canadian North and First Air have had a lot of shrinkage of their jet flying over the last couple of years. Some guys at the bottom of their list would likely come for the chance to get upgraded and be higher on our list. Same with Georgian. I know a Georgian RJ Captain who is firing resumes off left, right and centre because he just can't wait for a PML. I know there are still a few guys at West Wind who have tons of time sitting as a captain on the ATR who would meet any matrix time requirements. Cathay B-scaler's are loosing their housing allowance. I'm sure some are probably ready to come home. We only need 50 captains.

Management has kept the WAWCON low at Encore for 5 years now. They hire 20 guys a month and have managed to keep the airline going. Not a single flight to date has been cancelled for a lack of crew. Again, we only need 100 pilots total. The worst thing we could do is throw those 100 guys under the bus and have a separate non-association for them. It will only create division and whipsawing.
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Dangerous Goods
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#121 Post by Dangerous Goods » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:33 pm

So let me get this straight. Selling out 1900 pilots by devaluing current 737 WAWCON and creating another layer for Encore pilots to flow through is your vision of uniting a pilot group!? All in the name of creating a career opportunity for 100 pilots?! Brilliant!! Absolutely brilliant!!

You guys are too ridiculous to listen to. Like I said - thank god you're the minority.
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#122 Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:15 pm

Dangerous Goods wrote:Canadian? Air Canada? OG Westjet pilots? Oh boy, now you're digging deep. Come on man, THAT has nothing to do with this,
It has everything to do with this. It is a somewhat fair comparison to use the original westjetters here. They saw an opportunity even when the salary wasn't industry leading and found some value in what was being offered. Same thing at Rouge. They are an airline within an airline; flying old equipment on a B-scale. I don't work for AC but I'll guarantee the same convo happened when Rouge was imposed on the pilots. "Don't go. You're lowering the bar and we will kick you off the list. Let's shut this down before it starts by preventing anyone from going to it." Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and ACPA has been working ever since to close the gap. They are still paid a lower wage than mainline for the same flying. Pilots at AC/Rouge get to choose between a lower pay, socialized bidding less overnights and have the ability to move between companies. Everyone chooses what fits their family life. What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce. Something like what happened when the RJ's went to Jazz or when Sky regional got some EMB's instead of that flying going to Jazz. Every time this happens everyone screams "off with their heads! You are all on a blacklist and will never work in this industry again!"
Dangerous Goods wrote:OG Westjet pilots came here because they were the outcasts of the industry - they couldn't get on at AC or Canadian.
So what you are saying is that they had a reason that worked for their situation and that's ok. They looked at what was available in front of them and chose what they thought was best. Should they have refused and stayed at Time Air or remained unemployed/underemployed or overseas instead?
Dangerous Goods wrote:Their reward wasn't a spot on a mainline carrier list. Their reward was financial gain from options. They took a risk and it paid off, unfortunately, they drove the bar lower for individual gain.
So if an OG westjeter did it, that's ok. If an OG Encorian thinks about it, no 'effin way. Off the list with him. Ya, I'm definitely the hypocritical one here...

Dangerous Goods wrote:So, it kinda sounds like you do want WJ pilots flying swoop planes at our rates. However, were it gets murky is when you say "If we can't though, I understand and support someone's decision to fly there, AND they should still have a spot on the mainline list". Ahhh? No, not at all...
Yes, that's right. Have a little empathy man. I want everyone to be able to choose. NO COMPENSATION PACKAGE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED AT ALL but if it's too low, like Encore was, no one will go and those that do join will naturally go to the bottom of the list. Believe it or not, I too have a line in the sand. I don't know where that is yet since absolutely NOTHING HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET. Encore's WAWCON was terrible and zero pilots took that option.
Dangerous Goods wrote:That's the hard line in the sand, my friend. If you want to fly at swoop under a b scale, then fine. That's your prerogative, and who am I to deter you. Your reward will be jet pic and some overseas opportunity. If you stand strong and refuse such conditions, then your reward is a long and prosperous career on the WJ pilot list. You can't have both dude, and suggesting so is childish and entitled.
You are saying that since I don't like this toy no one else gets to play with it either. We don't live in a black and white world and overseas flying might be one reason to do it. Not commuting might be a reason to do it. All single day turns and no overnights might be a reason. Maybe all of those combined have some "value" to someone that compensates them IFthe hourly rate is lower. Maybe they'll come out with a compensation package that is 20% lower than mainline on an hourly salary and with twice the stock options. Maybe Swoop will pay for the medical/dental on behalf of the pilots. That would go a long way to making up for a few dollars less. Would that be worth it? I don't know because NOTHING HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET.
Dangerous Goods wrote:Here lies the hypocrisy in your arguments. You criticize original WJ pilots for lowering the bar, yet you're ok with that in the form of swoop AND you want to be rewarded with unfettered access to the mainline list. Unbelievable...
I'm not criticizing them. I get it. The risk of accepting a lower wage paid off for them. Handsomely. There was no mainline list at the time. They had no idea if WS would be around in 6 months, 1 year, ... They were rewarded in stock options. There is a risk that this doesn't last beyond it's first winter season. Remember ZIP and TANGO? Wikipedia them if you were still in high school when AC launched them. What is the reward for someone going to swoop? Are we going to offer swoop pilots 'day-one' style stock options? Would that make up for a lower salaryIF THERE IS ONE? It's called a compensation package not a salary package. If we street hire everyone and exclude them from the list, the WAWCON will be as low as Gregg dictates. We will have a bunch of pissed off former Georgian drivers who have nothing to lose. There will be no reward for the risk that they are taking and they will be motivated to undercut you at every step. The only reward that they will see is growth of their airline at the expense of yours. After all, you want nothing to do with them. Having some association helps keep the ball in our court. At least a little.

We don't know ANYTHING about the WAWCON at Swoop. We know four things about the airline.
  • 1. It's launching in Q3 of 2017. No wait, early 2018. No, I mean summer 2018.
    2. It won't go ahead without the approval of the pilot group
    3. No one will be forced to go to the ULCC
    4. It is incremental flying [for now - no one would deny we need a very firm scope clause that excludes the ULCC from being used as a salary comparator] since these are lease returns
That's just about all we know. Oh, I guess we also now know a name, HQ and the executives in charge.

Speaking of the executives - have you actually contacted ALPA to ask that DM gets kicked off of the list? He's already working for them. Last time I looked, he still has position 1374. Did you know that he and several other Encore managers "flowed" up to mainline, started their years at WestJet and then were immediately seconded back to Encore? There was no reason to do this other than to start the clock at Mainline for personal profit. No other pilots have before or since been permitted to do this. Where was your outrage when this happened?

You make it sound like I'd be the first person in the history of aviation to consider risk/reward/total compensation package. I'm not even the first person at this company to do so.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#123 Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:31 pm

Dangerous Goods wrote:You guys are too ridiculous to listen to. Like I said - thank god you're the minority.
Also, this is the problem with society as a whole today. The NRA nuts don't listen to the 70% of the population that don't want open-carry, background checks and clip limits. Liberals don't listen to Conservatives and don't get me started on those commy-pinko NDP guys...No one wants to listen to each other and come up with a consensus or a coilition.

Let's de-escalate this and wait until something gets proposed or better yet, a survey and some union meetings.

What I'm trying to say is let's keep as many options open for everyone to choose from. I'm also trying to prevent whipsawing which I believe to be the real elephant in the room. What I'm reading from you is that you are trying to protect the salaries at the top and punish anyone who would consider something other than the current pay.

I'll keep listening to all the viewpoints on this subject and see if we can't find a way to accomplish all of the above (minus punishing people for the choices they make.)
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#124 Post by altiplano » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:58 am

What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce.
They couldn't launch with a seperate list.
The flying is scoped and owned by ACPA pilots.
We voted "No" to second tier wawcon and then the government shoved it down our throats.

Make no mistake, there is still a divided work force.
One getting benefits from the other.
Rouge sees improvements in wawcon while the mainline gets diminished.

It's not personal and rouge has worked out great for some that are there, holding positions out of seniority, doing the best flying, getting $30k raise on the last contract...

... but it's fucked mainline 320 and 767 pilots who work way more and earn less than if that flying were still at mainline...

... it's fucked all the AC Pilots who's contract has to be diminished to try to bring rouge closer, including those rouge pilots who will one day want to come back to mainline and will find out it is less than what it was... it didn't get better, it went backwards during the days of record earnings and share prices because we tried to improve rouge.

Don't hate the player, hate the game... best move is to not let the game get out of the box (any further)...

It would be better for most AC pilots if rouge didn't exist...
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DropTanks
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#125 Post by DropTanks » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:23 am

Just to add a little color to the Rouge story...

Sky Regional almost became Rouge. Rovinescu had his plan B in place in case he didn't get what he wanted. This took place before the Embraers came to Sky. Sky Regional was tasked with creating another division called "Aerobee". A lot of high up staff at Sky went to work on this hush hush project. They had 2x 737NG on property, an OC, manuals, training program, management etc ready to go overnight if an agreement to start Rouge didn't happen. The day Rouge was announced Aerobee was scrapped, the two planes went back to Europe and the staff came back to Sky Regional. C.R. Was ready to use an outside group and take his chances in court over the Scope. Keep in mind the state of financial affairs at mainline at the time...he would have won. Talk about whipsawing. Would have been a blood bath.

#nowhipsawing
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