Dangerous Goods wrote:Canadian? Air Canada? OG Westjet pilots? Oh boy, now you're digging deep. Come on man, THAT has nothing to do with this,
It has everything to do with this. It is a somewhat fair comparison to use the original westjetters here. They saw an opportunity even when the salary wasn't industry leading and found some value in what was being offered. Same thing at Rouge. They are an airline within an airline; flying old equipment on a B-scale. I don't work for AC but I'll guarantee
the same convo happened when Rouge was imposed
on the pilots. "Don't go. You're lowering the bar and we will kick you off the list. Let's shut this down before it starts by preventing anyone from going to it." Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and ACPA has been working ever since to close the gap. They are still paid a lower wage than mainline for the same flying. Pilots at AC/Rouge get to choose between a lower pay, socialized bidding less overnights and have the ability to move between companies. Everyone chooses what fits their family life. What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce. Something like what happened when the RJ's went to Jazz or when Sky regional got some EMB's instead of that flying going to Jazz. Every time this happens everyone screams "off with their heads! You are all on a blacklist and will never work in this industry again!"
Dangerous Goods wrote:OG Westjet pilots came here because they were the outcasts of the industry - they couldn't get on at AC or Canadian.
So what you are saying is that they had a reason that worked for their situation and that's ok. They looked at what was available in front of them and chose what they thought was best. Should they have refused and stayed at Time Air or remained unemployed/underemployed or overseas instead?
Dangerous Goods wrote:Their reward wasn't a spot on a mainline carrier list. Their reward was financial gain from options. They took a risk and it paid off, unfortunately, they drove the bar lower for individual gain.
So if an OG westjeter did it, that's ok. If an OG Encorian thinks about it, no 'effin way. Off the list with him. Ya, I'm definitely the hypocritical one here...
Dangerous Goods wrote:So, it kinda sounds like you do want WJ pilots flying swoop planes at our rates. However, were it gets murky is when you say "If we can't though, I understand and support someone's decision to fly there, AND they should still have a spot on the mainline list". Ahhh? No, not at all...
Yes, that's right. Have a little empathy man. I want everyone to be able to choose. NO COMPENSATION PACKAGE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED AT ALL
but if it's too low, like Encore was, no one will go and those that do join will naturally go to the bottom of the list. Believe it or not, I too have a line in the sand. I don't know where that is yet since absolutely NOTHING HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET.
Encore's WAWCON was terrible and zero pilots took that option.
Dangerous Goods wrote:That's the hard line in the sand, my friend. If you want to fly at swoop under a b scale, then fine. That's your prerogative, and who am I to deter you. Your reward will be jet pic and some overseas opportunity. If you stand strong and refuse such conditions, then your reward is a long and prosperous career on the WJ pilot list. You can't have both dude, and suggesting so is childish and entitled.
You are saying that since I don't like this toy no one else gets to play with it either. We don't live in a black and white world and overseas flying might be one reason to do it. Not commuting might be a reason to do it. All single day turns and no overnights might be a reason. Maybe all of those combined have some "value" to someone that compensates them IF
the hourly rate is lower. Maybe they'll come out with a compensation package that is 20% lower than mainline on an hourly salary and with twice the stock options. Maybe Swoop will pay for the medical/dental on behalf of the pilots. That would go a long way to making up for a few dollars less. Would that be worth it? I don't know because NOTHING HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET.
Dangerous Goods wrote:Here lies the hypocrisy in your arguments. You criticize original WJ pilots for lowering the bar, yet you're ok with that in the form of swoop AND you want to be rewarded with unfettered access to the mainline list. Unbelievable...
I'm not criticizing them. I get it. The risk of accepting a lower wage paid off for them. Handsomely. There was no mainline list at the time. They had no idea if WS would be around in 6 months, 1 year, ... They were rewarded in stock options. There is a risk that this doesn't last beyond it's first winter season. Remember ZIP and TANGO? Wikipedia them if you were still in high school when AC launched them. What is the reward for someone going to swoop? Are we going to offer swoop pilots 'day-one' style stock options? Would that make up for a lower salaryIF THERE IS ONE
? It's called a compensation package not a salary package. If we street hire everyone and exclude them from the list, the WAWCON will be as low as Gregg dictates. We will have a bunch of pissed off former Georgian drivers who have nothing to lose. There will be no reward for the risk that they are taking and they will be motivated to undercut you at every step. The only reward that they will see is growth of their
airline at the expense of yours
. After all, you want nothing to do with them. Having some association helps keep the ball in our court. At least a little.
We don't know ANYTHING
about the WAWCON at Swoop. We know four things about the airline.
- 1. It's launching in Q3 of 2017. No wait, early 2018. No, I mean summer 2018.
2. It won't go ahead without the approval of the pilot group
3. No one will be forced to go to the ULCC
4. It is incremental flying [for now - no one would deny we need a very firm scope clause that excludes the ULCC from being used as a salary comparator] since these are lease returns
That's just about all we know. Oh, I guess we also now know a name, HQ and the executives in charge.
Speaking of the executives - have you actually contacted ALPA to ask that DM gets kicked off of the list? He's already working for them. Last time I looked, he still has position 1374. Did you know that he and several other Encore managers "flowed" up to mainline, started their years at WestJet and then were immediately seconded back to Encore? There was no reason to do this other than to start the clock at Mainline for personal profit. No other pilots have before or since been permitted to do this. Where was your outrage when this happened?
You make it sound like I'd be the first person in the history of aviation to consider risk/reward/total compensation package. I'm not even the first person at this company to do so.