Two union drives

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Checklist
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Re: Two union drives

#26 Post by Checklist » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:22 pm

Oh, well forgive me.

Then Encore pilots need not worry flowing over from a non-unionized company to a union company.
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jjj
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Re: Two union drives

#27 Post by jjj » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:12 pm

Yycjetdriver wrote:
jjj wrote:FenceSitter,

Assuming you are a WS pilot - airing out your laundry on here is in poor taste. We have two online forums to discuss these matters.

BingBong,

If you think that was well written then you need to finish grade 9 and prepare yourself because grade 10 is way harder.


JJJ
The kook-aid runs thick in this one, almost makes me sick just thinking about it. I'm always surprised when fellow pilots surffering from poor conditions side with the management putting them there. But then again the big wigs run the company knowing there's people like you out there.
Hello YYCjetdriver,

You may join the list of people who assume I side with management. I find that interesting because there was nothing in my post that gave an opinion on the issues at WS. There are plenty of venues to discuss these matters internally which is my preference.

I'm just a line pilot and I truly don't care what side of the fence people sit.

Have a nice day.

JJJ
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Re: Two union drives

#28 Post by Checklist » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:27 pm

rxl wrote:
Checklist wrote:
Bond123 wrote:Soooo what happens to the hundreds of Encore pilots if Westjet does decide to unionize? Heard from friends there that it wouldn't be a good outcome for them!?
Worst case scenario our newest flow through will lose 47 numbers.

Best case scenario we keep the one list post certification.

I feel like it's a 50/50 shot at this point. The one list is against ALPA's constitution but, exceptions have been made in the past. But if that is the case, I certainly see grievances in the future.
Please explain the statement that "one list is against ALPA's constitution". I am no expert on the ALPA constitution, I am however a long time ALPA member who has been through ALPA sanctioned seniority list mergers - one of which created ONE list out of FIVE - so I don't know what on earth you are talking about with that statement. I am also under the impression that one integrated Westjet/Encore list currently exists so I fail to see how it would be detrimental to anyone at the Teal team to sign an ALPA card.
Misinformation is not helpful to anyone.

Just the facts please, just the facts.

Out of curiosity, how is seniority chosen at a Jazz new hire course when there is both ALPA members and non- members?
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Re: Two union drives

#29 Post by Checklist » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:33 pm

Yycjetdriver wrote:
jjj wrote:FenceSitter,

Assuming you are a WS pilot - airing out your laundry on here is in poor taste. We have two online forums to discuss these matters.

BingBong,

If you think that was well written then you need to finish grade 9 and prepare yourself because grade 10 is way harder.


JJJ
The kook-aid runs thick in this one, almost makes me sick just thinking about it. I'm always surprised when fellow pilots surffering from poor conditions side with the management putting them there. But then again the big wigs run the company knowing there's people like you out there.
If you don't hate where you work, it must be kool-aid.
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Re: Two union drives

#30 Post by mbav8r » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:00 pm

checklist wrote;
Out of curiosity, how is seniority chosen at a Jazz new hire course when there is both ALPA members and non- members?
Well, I'm not sure what this has to do with the WJ/Encore list but a new hire from a ALPA represented pilot group draws their number first, if there is only one out of the entire class, they would automatically be the senior pilot in that class.
However, it is worth noting, this is not an ALPA policy, the Jazz group passed this into our constitution.
So, that being said, it would be up to the WJ MEC once formed, how to deal with the one list issue and if a WJ pilot decided they didn't like it could file a grievance and potentially challenge how a group from a separate entity has a seniority number ahead of them. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened.
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Re: Two union drives

#31 Post by rxl » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:36 am

Checklist wrote:Oh, well forgive me.

Then Encore pilots need not worry flowing over from a non-unionized company to a union company.
I'm sure that the actual flow through agreement spells out pretty clearly the process and consequences of "flowing over". That agreement should become part of the collective agreement of a certified pilot group going forward.
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Re: Two union drives

#32 Post by IKEA_Monkey » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:32 pm

The "agreement" on flow is just that, an agreement. It is hardly worth the paper it is written on and can change with the stoke of a pen. If mainline certifies, everything is in jeopardy. For every person that says flow would survive, there is another who says it will not. There are strong arguments from both sides for the success or failure of flow/DOH. But no one knows for sure what will happen, its a coin toss. The best option would be for Encore to certify immediately after mainline, but even then nothing is guaranteed.

In the mean time everyone is working full tilt. This is great for quick upgrades but at the end of the day we're all here for one reason and if it disappears, whats the point? The guys about to flow are just hanging on, hoping to make it over before it hits the fan. The rest are waiting to see what happens. If encore gets the shaft, you can bet the vast majority will be peddling their resumes with fresh Q400 ratings and hoping for a call from big red.
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Re: Two union drives

#33 Post by rxl » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:15 am

IKEA_Monkey wrote:The "agreement" on flow is just that, an agreement. It is hardly worth the paper it is written on and can change with the stoke of a pen. If mainline certifies, everything is in jeopardy. For every person that says flow would survive, there is another who says it will not. There are strong arguments from both sides for the success or failure of flow/DOH. But no one knows for sure what will happen, its a coin toss. The best option would be for Encore to certify immediately after mainline, but even then nothing is guaranteed.

In the mean time everyone is working full tilt. This is great for quick upgrades but at the end of the day we're all here for one reason and if it disappears, whats the point? The guys about to flow are just hanging on, hoping to make it over before it hits the fan. The rest are waiting to see what happens. If encore gets the shaft, you can bet the vast majority will be peddling their resumes with fresh Q400 ratings and hoping for a call from big red.
It would be pretty disingenuous of WJ pilot leadership if the flow through agreement was to disappear post certification.
If that were to happen then the lessons that should have been learned from the long sad history of mainline/regional relations at the "Red Team" will have been lost.
This would be especially disappointing given the fact that WJ pilot leaders on both sides of the employee/management equation lived that history.
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Re: Two union drives

#34 Post by mbav8r » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:05 am

"If that were to happen then the lessons that should have been learned from the long sad history of mainline/regional relations at the "Red Team" will have been lost."

Human nature being what it is, the die was cast when WJ Pilots agreed to allow Encore to be set up as a separate entity.
I predict if the vote for certification is positive there will be an announcement shortly afterwards that Encore will be flying Cseries or similar and let the whipsawing begin. Nah, just fooling around, that would never happen!
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Re: Two union drives

#35 Post by Squid » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:23 pm

The reason it works for them is due to it being simple without red tape. It only takes one grievance from an off the street hire direct Wj to start the motions of common employer if they certify (not to mention if one of the 3 parties doesn't play well in the sandbox) you now have years of cost and headache before a hint of resolve if any. If it ain't broke...again that's why it works. Grab the popcorn because the ones that say it will be fine post cert (I have a bridge I wanna sell ya too) there's reasons why jazz and AC could never achieve an industry milestone like that.
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Re: Two union drives

#36 Post by mantogasrsrwy » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:16 pm

+1 I could see certification opening a huge can of worms and paying for a lot of lawyer's children to go to private school.
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Re: Two union drives

#37 Post by BlueSkies12 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:20 pm

+1
If a WJ off the street pilot is paying union dues and then see hundreds of Encore pilots slip in ahead of him I could see some hard feelings. That's the point of a union, to protect your seniority and working conditions.
Encore better jump on board as well IMHO.
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Re: Two union drives

#38 Post by Squid » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:37 am

I don't even know if them jumping onboard would be the solution as you only have to look at how Jazz flow works. It's nowhere near as good as wj. Years of tape. Red that is.
This thread can demonstrate the incompetence by what is perceived to be better.viewtopic.php?t=88506
Like I said. Simple is good and wj arguably has the best arrangement due to the lack of fighting and restrictions. Like I said grab the popcorn.
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Re: Two union drives

#39 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:31 pm

Squid wrote:The reason it works for them is due to it being simple without red tape. It only takes one grievance from an off the street hire direct Wj to start the motions of common employer if they certify (not to mention if one of the 3 parties doesn't play well in the sandbox) you now have years of cost and headache before a hint of resolve if any. If it ain't broke...again that's why it works. Grab the popcorn because the ones that say it will be fine post cert (I have a bridge I wanna sell ya too) there's reasons why jazz and AC could never achieve an industry milestone like that.
Hey Squid, I do not believe a grievance can lead to a Single (Common) Employer designation. Such a designation occurs under section 35 of the Canada Labour Code and only under application by a union or an employer usually at the time of sale/merger of a company (but there a few other circumstances I think).

A grievance only concerns violations of an employee's rights under the CBA. If an employee's grievance is successful, the board orders the corrective action.

Cheers

JS
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Re: Two union drives

#40 Post by Squid » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:39 pm

But several will. Are you saying their flow doesn't work well right now? Take a search for common employer complaints and the red tape
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglob ... ent=safari
Then the responses http://iamaw2323.ca/2015/06/01/air-cana ... lletin-27/
I haven't heard of an update lately but I think you get my drift with the time it takes i.e. airontario
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Re: Two union drives

#41 Post by FenceSitter » Thu May 11, 2017 8:11 pm

Tomorrow is a big day. I suspect it is the day when the first domino falls and is also the first true spike in the coffin of PACT/WEA. Good luck to the ladies and gentlemen who put such hard work into bringing real representation to the heart and soul of WJ. By noon tomorrow I hope you have ALPA to stand in front of and behind you. I don't know if the FAs will be next but seeing the strength that an international union will bring to the table will lessen the fear of CUPE. Once the WPFAA drive decides to follow the lead of the pilots and let the professionals take over, those FAs will certainly certify as well. RD, the new re-hire, is a good man. He would have been able to give WJ another 5-10 years of a union-free cabin...but his hiring is far too late to stem the tide of unionization.
Time to do right by the employees again. ALPA.....YES!!!!! WPFAA.....YES!!!!!
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Re: Two union drives

#42 Post by RustyDeuce » Thu May 11, 2017 8:35 pm

The people behind WPFAA are a bunch of dopes. Passionate sure but that's about it.
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Re: Two union drives

#43 Post by Bede » Fri May 12, 2017 5:20 am

Squid,
Employees can't file grievances - the union does that. Just because an employee complains to the union doesn't mean that they will file a grievance.
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Re: Two union drives

#44 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri May 12, 2017 8:32 am

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:
Squid wrote:)
A grievance only concerns violations of an employee's rights under the CBA. If an employee's grievance is successful, the board orders the corrective action.
This is exactly correct. If the original date of hire/One list is voted in by the majority of pilots and is enshrined in the contract moving forward, you can not file a "no fair" grievance. It would also be hard to prove to a judge or arbitrator that you were hired with the one list as a condition of employment, were ok with those conditions of employment for the last four years but all of a sudden decided you were wronged now that ALPA comes in.
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Re: Two union drives

#45 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri May 12, 2017 10:47 am

We shall see, BE20. I've made the Breach Of Contract arguments too many times before to repeat it again.

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Re: Two union drives

#46 Post by FenceSitter » Sun May 21, 2017 9:50 am

RustyDeuce wrote:The people behind WPFAA are a bunch of dopes. Passionate sure but that's about it.
I disagree. I think they are smarter than they are passionate with perhaps one exception where the brains and passion may both be lacking (not the President, that's for sure. She leads that drive with her heart and soul...big respect for that). That said, it does seem that they are no longer the only players pushing to certify the FAs. it would appear that CUPE has thrown their hat in the ring again if word out of YYZ is to be believed. Several FAs have received calls asking for them to put their names out there for contact when the website goes up later this month.
I don't think WJ needs to worry about this drive unless an appetite for CUPE develops in YYC and YVR, or that they shrink the base size in short order of both bases. This new CUPE drive seems to have been initiated by YYZ FAs. The WPFAA always has had a hard time getting traction out there. Do these two drives cannibalize each other as the WPFAA previously ate the last CUPE drive? Does the existence of two concurrent drives in the inflight department leave greater room for the company to continue down it's path of morale breaking ignorance (no fault to the company, the fault lies completely with PACT/WEA and it's subgroups)?
Interesting for sure but the WPFAA has some serious decisions to make...and soon. It would seem that the WPFAA has done the groundbreaking work for the larger unions. They have come in and moved boulders, cut down trees, cut grass, and poured a foundation. The big boys will take advantage of the work the WPFAA have done, that they could never have done regardless of finances and other resources. CUPE will try to come in and that would not be possible without the WPFAA. The WPFAA has decisions, but WJ has a serious choice to make. To think that the FAAB/WCCA situation is infinitely tenable is completely foolish. Any person who thinks that the WJPA was going to last forever, FAAB/WCCA is going to last forever, RezVoice is going to last forever.....etc, is delusional and should stay away from sharp objects when awake.
WJ will get the union they deserve. The employees will simply get a union. If WJ would rather deal with their own people, then the WPFAA is the wise choice. If WJ would rather deal with an outside party, then CUPE is the wise choice. Regardless, they have to make a choice. They have shown that they have chosen to risk their future on their ability to manipulate an employee group into thinking that the status quo is awesome and the PACT/WEA unicorns fart rainbows. They somehow got 55% of the front end to give those unicorns another chance. Well, the unicorn didn't exist and no more rainbow farts (PRAC committee recommendations) were going to happen. When those recommendations were not implemented, WJ gave that 5% back to the voting group. With this blind and seemingly rushed implementation of the ULCC I figure that gave back another 15%. The company is now dealing with a strong union that will not be pushed and will not break.
Are those people in positions of authority so stupid so as to make the same decision twice? It would seem so. In the recent MOA between FAAB/WCCA and mgmt there is a conspicuous absence of the CEO's signature. Making arrangements that they have no desire of keeping (not that the signature would make it worth anything more than a roll of toilet paper anyway, but I digress) to placate an employee group. CUPE will take advantage of this. The statement above...this is why I disagree. They are both smart and passionate but smarter than they are passionate. The WPFAA will likely not use this to stir up emotions and passion...that's what CUPE will do.
Regardless, certification is coming to the inflight department. It's simply a matter of whether the company will repeat the mistakes of the past and fight (likely) or learn from their mistakes and do their best to pave the way for a smooth transition from no representation to full and compliant representation.
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Re: Two union drives

#47 Post by FenceSitter » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:23 pm

The title says two union drives and there look to be many more than that. Bets of luck to the Encore group. I hope that their "resounding majority" infers that they have greater than 50% and that they can apply for cardcheck denying the company the opportunity to play their games. The voting process seems to only allow for the company to peddle more fear. If you have more than 50%, then you already have the voice of the majority...good luck!!
CSAs,and FAs (at both airlines) look to be being spoken to by the big boys now...maintenance too. No more independent 'westjetty' pseudo-unions...just the real deal. Would it not have been easier for the company to deal with an independent union rather than CUPE or any of the other big guys? I suppose they will get the union they deserve....
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Re: Two union drives

#48 Post by Victory » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:14 am

Or they'll just start a new airline. Oh wait.
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Re: Two union drives

#49 Post by brooks » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:05 pm

:lol:

I think they hired too many Jazz guys.
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Re: Two union drives

#50 Post by Smitty » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:07 am

FenceSitter wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:23 pm
The title says two union drives and there look to be many more than that. Bets of luck to the Encore group. I hope that their "resounding majority" infers that they have greater than 50% and that they can apply for cardcheck denying the company the opportunity to play their games. The voting process seems to only allow for the company to peddle more fear. If you have more than 50%, then you already have the voice of the majority...good luck!!
CSAs,and FAs (at both airlines) look to be being spoken to by the big boys now...maintenance too. No more independent 'westjetty' pseudo-unions...just the real deal. Would it not have been easier for the company to deal with an independent union rather than CUPE or any of the other big guys? I suppose they will get the union they deserve....
The vote still happens regardless of the number of cards signed.
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