Swoop pilot hiring.

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.80@410
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#26 Post by .80@410 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:15 pm

Dizzy D wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:46 pm
Wise words from NewCommercialPilot, said no one, ever...
:lol:

I just spat my coffee all over my phone .

Best ... line ... ever ...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#27 Post by Shady McSly » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:04 pm

Settle down
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#28 Post by Maritimer » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:01 am

NewCommercialPilot is too butthurt to accept reality.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#29 Post by Bede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:41 am

swimming wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:09 am
Bede wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:25 am
That's way less than Sunwing, AT, etc.

Basically a captain position for FO wages. No ESP, options, etc. No opportunity to flow to WJ.

Did anyone remind these guys that everyone else is hiring these days?

What a joke.
Actually those numbers and the pilot requirements are straight out of the Sunwing contract. There is a link to the contract in the Sunwing forum. The question is will Swoop continue past the third step and follow the rest of Sunwing’s steps?
These rates may look similar to Sunwing's, but up on arrival, any pilot is going to find out that they are far behind a Sunwing pilot.

Unfortunately, this is how things are spun so often around here. I really don't like disparging my own wages as I am largely satisfied with them, but you hear this sort of reasoning a lot around here. "Look, our hourly rates are almost the same as AC". However, we pay for our own benefits, no YOS, pension, etc. So the truth is that, on paper, we may make similar money, but at the end of the day, the "cash in jeans" rate is way, way less.

Pilots have never been in a better position to end this race to the bottom.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#30 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am

If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#31 Post by fish4life » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:29 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am
If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
Go check out Allegiants pay and get back to me... believe it or not a ULCC can pay well in fact better than even mainline WJ
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#32 Post by Airbrake » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am
If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.

I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#33 Post by rudder » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 am

Airbrake wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am



I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#34 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:12 am

rudder wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 am
Airbrake wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am



I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.
Rouge has been incedibly successful for Air Canada and is one of the reasons for the impressive performance of the stock price in the last two years. Apparently the Rouge pilots are among the happiest of the pilots in the AC world, with paychecks that support that view. My own observations on the YYZ inter-terminal train would support the view that Rouge pilots, generally, appear happier, if facial expressions are any indicator.

It's too bad you didn't go to AC when you had the chance Rudder or you'd be making those wages too!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#35 Post by rudder » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:27 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:12 am
rudder wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 am
Airbrake wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am



I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.
Rouge has been incedibly successful for Air Canada and is one of the reasons for the impressive performance of the stock price in the last two years. Apparently the Rouge pilots are among the happiest of the pilots in the AC world, with paychecks that support that view. My own observations on the YYZ inter-terminal train would support the view that Rouge pilots, generally, appear happier, if facial expressions are any indicator.

It's too bad you didn't go to AC when you had the chance Rudder or you'd be making those wages too!
I cannot help but think that your view is not held by the majority of WJ pilots who recently voted in favour of unionization, a say in WAWCON, and the right to bargain in a well defined legal and procedural framework. If WJ wants an AC/Rouge arrangement, then that should be a proposal at the bargaining table.

I hope that the SWOOP initiative is just a shot across the bow and that saner minds will prevail. The concept of subcontracting a portion of the 737 flying is as abhorrent as proposing to subcontract the 787 flying. Alienating the WJ pilots is not a formula for continued corporate success.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#36 Post by Greenbastard » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:53 am

NCP please, please do us all a favour and go.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#37 Post by Air.Field » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am

so should everyone blacklist Rouge pilots? They seem to be taking over more and more mainline flights for little in return at AC mainline and at cheaper rate and is in part reason why Swoop has come to be. How about blacklist Sky regional pilots, or Flair, or Georgian, Encore or Jazz? It's funny everyone screams blacklist blacklist, when those very pilots and unions are guilty of the race to the bottom and locking in (at AC family) 10 yr contracts to the detriment of their members and piloting profession in Canada. How about Westjet when it first started? Flying not for money but stock. Albeit it worked out for those pilots very well, but at the time... *coughwhorecough*

As we know, end of the day, companies can hire whom ever they want. It would be beneficial for AC to take as many from Swoop to incur training and schedule costs at Swoop.

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas. But yet, as tradition in Canada, we backstab eachother for the greater bad, rather than collectively working together. This hole was dug by us, and it's up to us to dig out of it, and blacklisting isn't the way. Blacklisting pilots just brings more shame and humility to all of us, and like I mentioned above, end of the day it has no real bearing on hiring practices. The fact there's companies growing and a pilot shortage at the same time is something to capitalize on, and I'm afraid we'll all miss this opportunity.

-edited for clarity.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#38 Post by mbav8r » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:25 am

Air.Field wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am
so should everyone blacklist Rouge pilots? They seem to be taking over more and more mainline flights for little in return at AC mainline and is in part reason why Swoop has come to be. It's funny everyone screams blacklist blacklist, when those very pilots and unions are guilty of the race to the bottom and locking in (at AC family) 10 yr contracts to the detriment of their members and piloting profession in Canada.

As we know, end of the day, companies can hire whom ever they want. It would be beneficial for AC to take as many from Swoop to incur training and schedule costs at Swoop.

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas. But yet, as tradition in Canada, we backstab eachother for the greater bad, rather than collectively working together. This hole was dug by us, and it's up to us to dig out of it, and blacklisting isn't the way. Blacklisting pilots just brings more shame and humility to all of us.
Rouge was forced on AC pilots by final arbitration and they are all AC pilots on the same list, also the Rouge initial contract was a carbon copy of WJ! Not even close to the same thing a swoop!
Swoop is to WJ, what Flair was to KFC, where are they now?
So what is the answer, if not blacklisting? Should we sit them down and buy them coffee as ncp is offering, tell them about how their choices are affecting others and hope they just didn’t know that. Maybe they’ll quit when they find out and rainbows will appears and puppies will fall from the sky and the CEOs will offer to work for pilot wages plus 5% for their troubles and....
People are selfish and will do what’s best for them, maybe if their are consequences to their actions, it won’t be what’s best for them. If they can live with the consequences, they will go to swoop, simple really!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#39 Post by Air.Field » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:41 am

mbav8r wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:25 am

Rouge was forced on AC pilots by final arbitration and they are all AC pilots on the same list, also the Rouge initial contract was a carbon copy of WJ! Not even close to the same thing a swoop!
Swoop is to WJ, what Flair was to KFC, where are they now?
So what is the answer, if not blacklisting? Should we sit them down and buy them coffee as ncp is offering, tell them about how their choices are affecting others and hope they just didn’t know that. Maybe they’ll quit when they find out and rainbows will appears and puppies will fall from the sky and the CEOs will offer to work for pilot wages plus 5% for their troubles and....
People are selfish and will do what’s best for them, maybe if their are consequences to their actions, it won’t be what’s best for them. If they can live with the consequences, they will go to swoop, simple really!
AC pilots mutally agreed to the expansion for little in return. Swoop pay scale looks comparable to Sunwing. Better starting FO than AC. I'm not saying buy coffee to Swoop pilots, again, it's a useless attempt IMO at putting a bandaid on after the flood gates have been open for years. The pilots who do go there, aren't going to care about some silly little list, nor are the HR depts. It will get us no where thinking a list is a be all solution. It's time to start raising the bar, something for all the MECs out there to game plan on, as no list will do that.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#40 Post by Checklist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:44 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am
If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.

Won’t impede progression at WJ? Where do you think they’re getting the tails to start this Frankenstein’s experiment? 10 tails = 80-100 pilots where is the bottom of the list going to go?

Seriously. What could management do that you wouldn’t gush over and call it good business sense?

Rouge is only rouge because AC was in the red. Last time I checked WJ was on its 51st profitable quarter with record load factors.

I would also like to point out that AC is doing extremely well and this was after a reactionary move. If this so called “threat” that we keep getting told about actually some how, miraculously, gets to 30 planes, okay let’s talk.

Until then, a 737 pilot flying a WJ owned plane, should be paid at WJ rates. It’s not that much to ask.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#41 Post by Air.Field » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am

AC would still be profitable without Rouge the past couple years with the price of oil and long term contracts. CR could've taken a 2 yr holiday.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#42 Post by BBQ Chips » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:05 am

Not sure how comparable it is to Sunwing. All internal upgrades at Sunwing start at year 2 Captain pay which is 117$ per hour and a 1000 hour per year salary. Also 1.5 X pay over 90 hours per month and double time over 100 hours or on a gdo.
Sunwing Captain in their first year 117 x 1000 =$117000
Swoop Captain at 103 x 75 x 12 = $92700

That is a difference of $24300 on the base salary.
I have no idea of any of the benefits at swoop but there is certainly a lot of extra cash to be made above the base salary at Sunwing. Also I’m not sure what the MMG is at swoop, I just used the 75 as I saw it posted previously.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#43 Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 am

Air.Field wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am
Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.
This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#44 Post by Go Guns » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 am

no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Even before ALPA, there were WestJet pilots who fought hard to improve the wawcon for pilots yet to be on the property. On top of that, when our wawcon goes up, pilot groups who use WestJet as a comparator come negation time benefit. Your career will be better off if nobody applies to fly the same metal, for the same company, for less money.

No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.....
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#45 Post by Bede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:26 am

Diadem wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 am
Air.Field wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am
Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.
This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.
I can't begrudge you for looking out for #1. I'm also disappointed that you feel that no one has ever put your interests first.

Part of the reason that I feel so strongly about doing this flying at the current rates is for the people coming behind me. I'd like to think that I'm looking out for them as opposed to padding my ESP and options with cheap labour. I was a big proponent of Encore and I always felt that it was a good job to take for a low time guy. The pay sucks now, but soon the Encore guy gets the opportunity to have my job. Now that a significant number of pilots have put their faith into WJ and decided to join Encore, the goal posts have shifted and that light at the end of the tunnel has got a bit dimmer. The coveted job of WJ pilot now has another hurdle put before it- Swoop.

No doubt the apologists will argue that Swoop is a better job than Encore so therefore it's progress. True- however, that flying should be done at current 737 rates. Our wages won't make or break this operation. The progression is DH8-B737, not DH8-B737 (discounted pay)-B737 (regular pay).
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#46 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:36 am

Our wages won't make or break this operation.
Bingo.

Do they pay the Dispatchers less? AMEs? Agents? Pushback crews? IT guys? EXECUTIVES?

F- NO!

So why are Pilots taking it?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#47 Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 am

Go Guns wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:12 am
Even before ALPA, there were WestJet pilots who fought hard to improve the wawcon for pilots yet to be on the property. On top of that, when our wawcon goes up, pilot groups who use WestJet as a comparator come negation time benefit. Your career will be better off if nobody applies to fly the same metal, for the same company, for less money.

No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.....
But that was still for pilots who joined WestJet and became part of their team; outsiders get nothing. I would be extremely happy to join WestJet and get those improved WAWCONs, but until that happens WestJet pilots have never done anything for me, and I don't feel any loyalty towards them. I'm not going to screw myself over to protect their interests. I've got applications in with a bunch of airlines, and Swoop definitely isn't my #1 choice, but if no one else calls me then it would be stupid to pass it up. It doesn't matter if other 737 operators compare their wages to WestJet's if I don't fly a 737. If I pass on Swoop, and no one else offers me a job, twenty years down the line I'll still be flying a turboprop getting raises that are, effectively, only cost of living increases. Until WestJet pilots start calling my boss and pressuring him to give me a raise because of the pilot shortage, I don't see why I should take a principled stand on your behalf.
If Swoop's wages are too low, what is the lowest they should be, objectively? By what metric do we set a floor on how much a 737 pilot should make? Should I not accept a job that pays any less than Air Canada?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#48 Post by Go Guns » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:15 pm

I'm not a huge union dude, but here is an example of WestJet pilots trying to improve your job..

https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... AKCN0Z82A6

Even if you're only after your own interests, again, those interests are better served if nobody accepts to fly the same airplane, for the same company, for less money. Those improved wawcon will get further and further away if the message you send the executives of Canada's airlines is that somebody is always willing to do the job for less.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#49 Post by Bede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:00 pm

Diadem,

Why do you feel the need to work for an airline? I like my job, but I have often considered going back and flying 703. Why? because as my children get older, I am noticing more and more how important it is to be home for supper with the family.

Also, you're saying that at Swoop you'd be making more than what you are now. I have a feeling that you're not working for the right outfit. I know in that in Thunder Bay alone, Thunder, Bravo, Ornge, and Northstar all pay more than 1st year Swoop. I'm not sure about Bearskin & Wasaya. There's a lot of great jobs out there these days: Swoop just isn't one of them.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#50 Post by Bede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:05 pm

Diadem wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 am
If Swoop's wages are too low, what is the lowest they should be, objectively? By what metric do we set a floor on how much a 737 pilot should make? Should I not accept a job that pays any less than Air Canada?
I think you're missing the point. If FlySuperJet Airlines wants to pay crap money, that's one thing- the market can decide. It's quite another thing for a company with a 737 operation to make an end run around it's own employees and want to pay less (actually as we're finding out- only pilots and FA's- everyone else is on WJ rates). This company cannot be built on the backs of the pilots.

So to answer your question, what is the lowest that Swoop should pay, the answer is the WestJet B737 WAWCON.
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