Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[HansDietrich]

Hey altiplano,

Thanks for clarifying. (No sarcasm meant at all). There surely must be a way for ACPA to make it easier on guys like myself that one day would like to work for AC, something a lot more palpable than the current PML.

The question in the title thread is "Why would anyone go to Swoop?", correct? The answer to that is: "Money and a Boeing 737 Type Rating". Let's look at myself and I can start justifying why I would even go there.

Where I am:
1. Making 40K a year
2. Flying a Dash 8-100 to communities to small town "Canada"
3. Flying 6 legs a day, getting paid for about half of my "work / time away from home"
4. Not really an exciting career. Certainly not what I'm dreaming about and worked my butt off for.
5. Is it good? It's okay. It's mediocre, but even if I'm stuck here for a while, the upgrade is just a year or so away (at max), so money wise, it'll be better.

Where I want to be:
1. Making more money
2. Flying a good aircraft. Let's not kid ourselves here. I became a pilot because I love aviation and airplanes. If I didn't care what I flew or where I flew to, I would've stayed in my previous profession.
3. Going to exciting destinations

Will Swoop answer that? Well, certainly the pay and the aircraft is better than what I make now. Will I want to stay there forever? Probably not, but a B737 Type rating and 500 hrs on type would look really good for an overseas job. See, I have friends that work at EK and EY, even QR. I don't know a single one that doesn't like his life, pay or the aircraft he flies. Their families are doing very well in UAE and most of them have been there for over 10 years. They drive nice cars, have money in the bank account and their layovers are in Sydney, Melbourne, London (UK), New York etc. There is a draw back to that life; you are tired a lot more than you are flying a Dash 8 to Grand Prairie. Oddly enough, I don't see any one of them going back home.

Maybe it's easier for me to uproot myself from Canada. Hell I don't even think I have roots here, yet. I already left my country once. Doing a second move would not be a big deal to me. So, again, to answer your the question asked in the thread title:

"Why would anyone go to Swoop?"

Well, because it's a means to open doors to really well paying jobs overseas.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Well, if you’re not from this country then I suppose you may not be familiar with the term Scab.

Anyway, if you do go to Swoop I give you 6 months before you’re complaining about the conditions there as well. See, the conditions at WJ are miserable these days... 5 day pairings made up of 14 hour duty days followed by min rest overnights are the norm. Fatigue is a very real threat and management could care less. Saretsky has already said that he wants the Swoop pilots to be more productive and work more days than WJ. I’m really not sure how that’s even possible. So I guess you can look forward to flying 6 or 7 legs a day while getting up at 3 am on the East coast and putting in a solid 14+ hours and being home 8 days a month. And don’t forget all the snot rags you’ll get to clean out of seat pockets while you’re grooming your own airplane 7 times a day for free.

As far as China or the Middle East is concerned , if that’s your goal then it may be worth suffering through Swoop. Although you may get a little disrespect initially from the Canadian pilots you meet over there, I’m sure they’ll get over it. I too have many friends working overseas, however, none of them are very happy. The money is good, it’s true, but it’s all relative as they are stuck living in a place and raising their families in a place they don’t truly want to be. I suppose the bright side is they will be able to afford to retire a few years earlier than I will but if you spend your whole life being unhappy with where you are and working hard just so you can retire and return to the life you had before you left, I’m not sure your priorities are in order. Anyway, the reason your overseas friends have been over there so long and haven’t returned may be because they truly do love it. Hopefully that’s the case. Or, it may be because of the fact that once you remove yourself from the Canadian Airline industry and become a contract pilot overseas it becomes increasingly difficult to come back to Canada and re-enter the airline world. Not because there are no airlines that will hire you, but because it’s very difficult to leave a high paying job on a 777 for a world-class airline and return home to become an FO on a Dash-8 at the bottom of the seniority list somewhere. As the saying goes ... once a contract pilot, always a contract pilot.

So... if that’s the path you have mapped out for yourself, then that’s fair. Swoop may be the right move for you. Just don’t be surprised if you hate every minute of it there and don’t be surprised when you lose the respect of your peers. Keep your head down, put your time in and head overseas as quickly as you can.

[co-joe]

Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

For a quick upgrade on a 70+ Tonne Jet.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's the simple answer to a simple question.

[altiplano]

No problem...

There surely must be a way for ACPA to make it easier on guys like myself that one day would like to work for AC, something a lot more palpable than the current PML

.

Like what? Whatever you might believe, ACPA doesn't hold the strings and has no say...

AC is offering express guys guaranteed interviews and preferential treatment in the hiring process from what I understand. What more do you expect?

[mbav8r]

No problem...

There surely must be a way for ACPA to make it easier on guys like myself that one day would like to work for AC, something a lot more palpable than the current PML

.

Like what? Whatever you might believe, ACPA doesn't hold the strings and has no say...

AC is offering express guys guaranteed interviews and preferential treatment in the hiring process from what I understand. What more do you expect?

Sorry Altiplano, I think you’re feeding the troll! I have a hard time believing that Hans is not trolling but if he is for real, he can’t leave Jazz fast enough for me. I believe the only thing that would make Hans happy is a DEC on the 777, without going through the interview process, after all he is a Dash 8 FO flying the flag, you know.
As a PML 1.0 pilot, I have never even remotely thought I should’ve been handed anything other than what I signed up for, a few things changed after the fact and I rolled with it ie; psych eval. Anyhow PML 2.0 is not what was expected and even though no promises were made, it’s not good enough for the “me” generation.
As for Swoop, this is a close to scabbing as you can get without being on strike, there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them, yet WJ management is moving forward with it at lightning speed, only reason for that is it’s hard to get that horse back in the barn once it’s out and they know it

Quick question, you say ACPA has no say, it is two ACPA pilots and an HR person for the interview, if the pilots have no say(input) why bother participating in the process. They must have some say.

[NewCommercialPilot]

...there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them...

Well, yes and no. As the promoters of the WPPA and then ALPA liked to toot, the WJPA agreement was not an enforceable contract as compared to a CBA. I tend to agree. From my point of view as a disenterested viewer, the "Statutory Freeze" triggered when ALPA sent a notice to bargain to WJ management only applies to a pilot's individual terms of employment. This includes your salary, hours of work, bidding schedule etc. I do not believe it applies to the company's actions regarding Swoop. Indeed, if the WJPA agreement provisions regarding setting up of another company were enforceable, there would be no need for a blacklist.

[indieadventurer]

Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

For a quick upgrade on a 70+ Tonne Jet.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's the simple answer to a simple question.

He's right because you will get a quick upgrade if this all goes down and that alone makes you realize or wonder how little highly experienced crews seem to be truly valued.

Would you see this with dr.'s, nurses, lawyers or engineers? A company starting a new company just to pay new employees less and cut benefits, to have them do the same thing? I honestly don't know but don't think so.

Those professions also don't use seniority to the extent that we do. Oh you're a 10,000+ hrs 737NG/A320 skipper and looking to switch companies? Well, bottom of the "list" for you for first year FO pay and you'll upgrade after pimply faced 22 yr old joe shmoe with 2000 hrs TT because he was here a ground school before you. Do you hear similar stories from dr.'s or lawyers..."yeah I was a partner or attending physician making 300k+ a year but I'm switching firms/hospitals so back to associate or resident to make ($whatever amount it is they start at) for me." Not from the MD's and JD's I know.

Which begs the question why? Is it that this job really isn't as difficult as we give ourselves credit for? That the mechanics and intricacies of operating an airliner have been trumped up by pilots and unions/associations? I honestly don't know and I'm wondering. Sure, there's a difference between commanding an airliner gracefully and being what we can all recognize as a good pilot vs not a good pilot, but at the end of the day this isn't a job that requires many years to become proficient at or nearly as much effort and work, unlike the professional disciplines mentioned above. If it was, the 10,000+ hrs skipper wouldn't be back to first year FO.

For the longest time there's been too many of us around to have the leverage to ask for treatment more inline with other disciplines and maybe the laws of supply/demand are to blame for all this? Guess we'll find out.

[altiplano]

Quick question, you say ACPA has no say, it is two ACPA pilots and an HR person for the interview, if the pilots have no say(input) why bother participating in the process. They must have some say.

AFAIK - it is who is available to do the interviews and the panel makeup changes based on that. Management pilots usually, sometimes retired pilots, sometimes flight ops office people.

The pilots there may be ACPA members, but they aren't representing ACPA. They are likely managers and represent the company. They ask and write what you say and your file is de-identified for scoring by a separate panel. They are trying to avoid days past when it was who you knew it were related to, not what you knew that got you hired.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Oh you're a 10,000+ hrs 737NG/A320 skipper and looking to switch companies? Well, bottom of the "list" for you for first year FO pay and you'll upgrade after pimply faced 22 yr old joe shmoe with 2000 hrs TT because he was here a ground school before you.

This is why someone would join Swoop. There are many experienced pilots around who are not at one of the majors and would want a left seat job rather than joining the back of the union line.

[Black_Tusk]

Or say someone who has been flying overseas with command time, and wants to come back to Canada without sitting at the bottom of AC or WJ's lists for 15 years. I can see it.

[garfield]

Anyone know already which bases are they gonna operate from? Are the conditions going to be like Rouge (lower pay but better schedule)?

cheers

[HansDietrich]

No problem...

There surely must be a way for ACPA to make it easier on guys like myself that one day would like to work for AC, something a lot more palpable than the current PML

.

Like what? Whatever you might believe, ACPA doesn't hold the strings and has no say...

AC is offering express guys guaranteed interviews and preferential treatment in the hiring process from what I understand. What more do you expect?

Sorry Altiplano, I think you’re feeding the troll! I have a hard time believing that Hans is not trolling but if he is for real, he can’t leave Jazz fast enough for me. I believe the only thing that would make Hans happy is a DEC on the 777, without going through the interview process, after all he is a Dash 8 FO flying the flag, you know.
As a PML 1.0 pilot, I have never even remotely thought I should’ve been handed anything other than what I signed up for, a few things changed after the fact and I rolled with it ie; psych eval. Anyhow PML 2.0 is not what was expected and even though no promises were made, it’s not good enough for the “me” generation.
As for Swoop, this is a close to scabbing as you can get without being on strike, there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them, yet WJ management is moving forward with it at lightning speed, only reason for that is it’s hard to get that horse back in the barn once it’s out and they know it

Quick question, you say ACPA has no say, it is two ACPA pilots and an HR person for the interview, if the pilots have no say(input) why bother participating in the process. They must have some say.

Give it a rest dude. Everyone is a troll to you. I have no intention of going to Swoop. There are better options out there, like Sky Regional that will give me the experience to get on with Emirates or Etihad, if I make it through their selection process. As far as the rest is concerned (PML and such) I don't really care anymore. I did care for a bit. Not anymore... not gonna happen... not interested.

[altiplano]

One should never chase metal, but rather look at the base and lifestyle. It's the most important thing. If I'm to be lucky enough to get on-board with Jazz, aircraft type would be the least of my concern. Sure the 100s / 300s are a bit older, but they're maintained well and are solid airplanes. I would have no problem flying one.

That was what? 413 days ago?

What changed? Less than a year on the line at a company you would be "lucky enough to get on" with and your jaded already? Did Jazz mistreat you?

[HansDietrich]

One should never chase metal, but rather look at the base and lifestyle. It's the most important thing. If I'm to be lucky enough to get on-board with Jazz, aircraft type would be the least of my concern. Sure the 100s / 300s are a bit older, but they're maintained well and are solid airplanes. I would have no problem flying one.

That was what? 413 days ago?

What changed? Less than a year on the line at a company you would be "lucky enough to get on" with and your jaded already? Did Jazz mistreat you?

It did and that's why I'm so bitter. I can't go further into it. I do bitch a lot here, but I'm not going to talk about personal issues that I have with the company. That's nobody's business but my own.

[Victory]

It's what makes this site such a great resource. If you were mistreated by Jazz I'm sure there are many that you could help by letting them know what happened so they can learn from other's experiences and avoid certain pitfalls in this industry.

[Raincoast]

I think this might be HD's complaint:

https://youtu.be/nBrCcYr0y5M

[JohnnyHotRocks]

With everyone talking about how not great the working conditions in terms of schedules at places like Jazz and georgian and others can be if you made a "great enough" salary or wage as a flight instructor and be home every night would you do that instead?

Thanks

Why would you want to be home every night? Isn't that part of the aviation adventure? Seeing the world?

Some of us had a chance to get laid, at least once... and now have kids...

Better not go to the middle east then!

[jjj]

One should never chase metal, but rather look at the base and lifestyle. It's the most important thing. If I'm to be lucky enough to get on-board with Jazz, aircraft type would be the least of my concern. Sure the 100s / 300s are a bit older, but they're maintained well and are solid airplanes. I would have no problem flying one.

That was what? 413 days ago?

What changed? Less than a year on the line at a company you would be "lucky enough to get on" with and your jaded already? Did Jazz mistreat you?

It did and that's why I'm so bitter. I can't go further into it. I do bitch a lot here, but I'm not going to talk about personal issues that I have with the company. That's nobody's business but my own.

20 bucks says it’s just another case of a brat that hasn’t worked a hard job in his life. Please queue the world’s smallest violin.

I see a little too much of this these days when a 20 something is flying a Q with less than 5 years in the biz and feels so hard done by. Makes me want to choke on my coffee.

[pacman007]

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/lawsuit-al ... -1.3773740

Guys think long and hard how much you are worth... In case of a accident or even a incedent at swoop don't think Westjet will come to your rescue. They have made it clear they think you are only worth 90000 to be responsible for 180 ish lifes...

[JBI]

...there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them...

Well, yes and no. As the promoters of the WPPA and then ALPA liked to toot, the WJPA agreement was not an enforceable contract as compared to a CBA. I tend to agree. From my point of view as a disenterested viewer, the "Statutory Freeze" triggered when ALPA sent a notice to bargain to WJ management only applies to a pilot's individual terms of employment. This includes your salary, hours of work, bidding schedule etc. I do not believe it applies to the company's actions regarding Swoop. Indeed, if the WJPA agreement provisions regarding setting up of another company were enforceable, there would be no need for a blacklist.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you NCP, but to clarify - and Bede has said it a number of times - prior to certification, the agreement with the company and the pilots/WJPA was 'enforceable'. However, it was enforceable in the sense that as an individual employee, if the company unilaterally changed a term in the agreement, generally speaking, your only option would be to file a wrongful dismissal claim alleging that the change in the contract resulted in constructive dismissal. Sure, if a large portion of pilots decided to file such a claim or perhaps apply for a class action, that would be something that the company would have to consider. However, if you were the only one to complain, it would be you and your lawyer filing a lawsuit against the company. Enforceable - you bet, but being certified does offer the pilots, as a group, more avenues for enforcing a contract beyond just a singular wrongful dismissal lawsuit.

As for what gets frozen - again, need to clarify. The entire contract is frozen and becomes a defacto CBA for now. The company cannot breach a term of that contract unilaterally without getting a spanking from the CIRB. However, I'll be the first to admit that there are interpretation issues in the contract. For example - in the contract, it is listed that the company will consult with the WJPA prior to doing X, Y or Z. Well, the WJPA no longer exists, so does the company have to consult with the pilots, ALPA or nobody? Tough to say.

The spirit of the contract is very much that the company needs to consult and negotiate with the pilots. Regardless, with the Swoop hiring, the company can play hardball now, but for me at least, the company opening up the Swoop hiring to outside pilots even when both the WJ and Encore (Who are not even in negotiations yet) contracts specifically require all flying done by an affiliated or subsidiary company be done by pilots on the WestJet Pilot Department List seems a pretty substantial unnecessary bad faith move.