One List

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Iphoneuser
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: One List

Post by Iphoneuser » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:08 pm

After almost 3 years there are 0 Reasons to stay at Encore any more. Unless you like working 18 days per month for 703-704 wages. No flow, no seniority, 4-5 legs per day, getting extended and missing commuting flights, no pension and as far as I’m concerned the future looks very bleak at best. and now you have people who were very junior Encore FO’s with less then a year on the Q snake their way into Swoop and now they’re awarded a WJ mainline seat and bypassing 300 Encore pilots (just another kick in the dick) This Capt on the way out…The kool aid has been replaced with sour milk that they keep pouring food colouring in with hopes that no one notices.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: One List

Post by Transonic » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:34 pm

tbayav8er wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:02 am
So apparently, some of the junior Encore FO's who bid to Swoop when they first started up have now been awarded Mainline FO positions. In my opinion, that's brutal. The rest of us at Encore didn't bid to swoop because we wanted to support the mainline pilots by not bidding over to Swoop, and this is what we get. Those junior Encore FO's just jumped the line ahead of the entire Encore pilot group.

I get it. The frustration is unbearable and rightly so.

The initial crop of FOs who came from Encore should not bear the brunt of any anger. They placed their bids in a time of uncertainty, as did the initial bypass CAs, when the ALPA MEC believed Swoop conditions would significantly improved. The bypass CAs and FOs from Encore somewhat normalized the progression of seniority at Swoop, which was welcomed at mainline. Of course now, this is far from the case.

As for now, the Swoop conditions have worsened. There is a 2 year freeze and no annual bonus.

The best thing to do is apply to AC and try hard to get on. Practice behavioral interview questions, buy new shoes, get a good fitting suit and be the best version of yourself.

If not, then WS mainline is a good fall back. Eventually.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: One List

Post by Transonic » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:58 pm

Blue42 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:46 pm
tbayav8er wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:47 am
Not quite. I've been at Encore for a little over 2 years, and I'm still more than 220 spots down the Encore list alone. This is also irrelevant, because management has shutdown flow from Encore to mainline, with no timeline in place to reinstate flow. The reason these people got a mainline spot who started around the same time as me is because they bid over to Swoop while the one list was still in tact. Since the Swoop pilots are now part of the same pilot list as mainline, those pilots that went to Swoop from Encore are near the top of the Swoop list, and therefore were able to bid successfully to mainline. The Swoop bid has been closed off to Encore pilots, as part of management shutting down flow, but even if I were to bid to Swoop (which I have no intention to ever do), I would start at the bottom of that list, and be 2 years lower on the pilot list than other guys who started at Encore the same time as me, who decided to bid over to Swoop, while the mainline pilots were still in arbitration. Anyways, I can complain until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, I just have to wait and see if I get a better job elsewhere. It's just BS though, and it's frustrating to see people who were willing to basically undercut WJ pilots while they were in arbitration get awarded for it.
Gotcha.....forgot about the flow part not happening right now. With planned over 200 new hires next year at mainline I’m sure it’ll start up again. Hopefully sooner then later....
I’m not so positive. Even 200 new hires would mean Encore would lose 100 Captains at the CBA targeted flow. If the 767s are quickly replaced, it could be 300 new hires next year or a loss of 150 Captains at Encore.

There is no way Encore can meet a 50% flow for 2020. As shown above, the penalty is pennies compared to the cost of grounding Q400s. The penalty will not make up for the YOS loss that the bypassed pilots will incur, not even close.

The best thing about the Encore CBA is that you get to go to another airline. And that’s not even happening. They’re too valuable to let go and not valuable enough to pay more.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Fanblade
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: One List

Post by Fanblade » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 am

At the end on the day you will need your employer on side for a single list or flow through.

I very much doubt Onex will entertain anything that would make a possible sale of an asset more problematic.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: One List

Post by cloak » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:19 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 am
At the end on the day you will need your employer on side for a single list or flow through.

I very much doubt Onex will entertain anything that would make a possible sale of an asset more problematic.
Good observation. Onex will likely have little appetite for merging WestJet and Encore which reduces its latitude. The market forces a more traditional seniority system practiced elsewhere making any seniority reserve system untenable. One has to work in a place to get it.

Although there may still be appetite for further consolidation, including a sale and CPA arrangement or small jets. So while Encore may have lost the one list, it could still win new opportunities, including pay increase. Losing those opportunities will be far worse than losing the one list.
---------- ADS -----------
  

plausiblyannonymous
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:37 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:19 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 am
At the end on the day you will need your employer on side for a single list or flow through.

I very much doubt Onex will entertain anything that would make a possible sale of an asset more problematic.
Good observation. Onex will likely have little appetite for merging WestJet and Encore which reduces its latitude. The market forces a more traditional seniority system practiced elsewhere making any seniority reserve system untenable. One has to work in a place to get it.

Although there may still be appetite for further consolidation, including a sale and CPA arrangement or small jets. So while Encore may have lost the one list, it could still win new opportunities, including pay increase. Losing those opportunities will be far worse than losing the one list.
Why would they not want to merge Encore into mainline?

It will cost them significantly more to start cancelling flights because they can't staff them. How do they staff them? They can pay captains better, or they can force the seniority problem to the side.
---------- ADS -----------
  

lostaviator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: One List

Post by lostaviator » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:21 am

Paying more won’t fix anything.

Scenario. Encore starts paying their captains $150k a year. Upgrade time remains low at AC. Do you stay at Encore or go to AC?

It’s all about the upgrade. Nothing to do with the money.

Onex won’t want to merge the companies.
---------- ADS -----------
  

plausiblyannonymous
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:55 am

lostaviator wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:21 am
Paying more won’t fix anything.

Scenario. Encore starts paying their captains $150k a year. Upgrade time remains low at AC. Do you stay at Encore or go to AC?

It’s all about the upgrade. Nothing to do with the money.

Onex won’t want to merge the companies.
I would rather get paid 150k a year, fly a Q, and get 16 days off a month. I can hold all one-days, or any assortment of 2, 3, 4, and 5 days.

I would have no problem being a career captain on the Q if the pay was competitive and did not leave me needing more.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Stratopaused
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:38 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:19 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 am
At the end on the day you will need your employer on side for a single list or flow through.

I very much doubt Onex will entertain anything that would make a possible sale of an asset more problematic.
Good observation. Onex will likely have little appetite for merging WestJet and Encore which reduces its latitude. The market forces a more traditional seniority system practiced elsewhere making any seniority reserve system untenable. One has to work in a place to get it.

Although there may still be appetite for further consolidation, including a sale and CPA arrangement or small jets. So while Encore may have lost the one list, it could still win new opportunities, including pay increase. Losing those opportunities will be far worse than losing the one list.
This is something that no one has been able to back up: why would Onex sell Encore, and who would buy it? Q400s aren't in demand at all, let alone used ones, and no one is going to pick up a CPA involving a regional airline that is hemorrhaging pilots so fast that it can't meet the requirements of that CPA. Encore has no physical assets besides the aircraft, and all the crew will bail if there's even more uncertainty about our futures. We aren't even sticking around when we're already part of WestJet and ostensibly will eventually flow; if Encore is spun off, it'll be shut down within a year for lack of crew, and WestJet will lose its regional partner. Brilliant strategy.
I don't think it's particularly realistic, but merging the two seniority lists has the best chance of keeping both components of the airline operating smoothly. It's perfectly feasible to have a common seniority system with multiple types, including turboprops, a la Canadian North; they have different pay scales for different types, and maintain a res system, while allowing their pilots to bid to whatever position they have the seniority to hold. As I said earlier, morale is so low and concern about our futures is so high that a simple raise won't fix the issues, especially if you get people wondering if Encore might be sold off, and if you think throwing cash at us will make us happy then you have a truly condescending attitude towards us. Anyone taking that approach really hasn't considered what Encore pilots actually want, has no respect for us, and expects us to eat whatever buckets of shit you shove in front of us. You clearly don't think we're important to WestJet's future, and you treat us like servants instead of peers. You're going to trash Encore, implode the company's entire strategy, and force them to abandon their current direction of becoming an international airline because they won't have any regional feed, all to stick it to some stupid pilots who had the audacity to want to be a part of your airline. Boy, did you show us...
---------- ADS -----------
  

sarg
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:44 pm

Re: One List

Post by sarg » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:19 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:37 am
cloak wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:19 pm
Fanblade wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 am
At the end on the day you will need your employer on side for a single list or flow through.

I very much doubt Onex will entertain anything that would make a possible sale of an asset more problematic.
Good observation. Onex will likely have little appetite for merging WestJet and Encore which reduces its latitude. The market forces a more traditional seniority system practiced elsewhere making any seniority reserve system untenable. One has to work in a place to get it.

Although there may still be appetite for further consolidation, including a sale and CPA arrangement or small jets. So while Encore may have lost the one list, it could still win new opportunities, including pay increase. Losing those opportunities will be far worse than losing the one list.
Why would they not want to merge Encore into mainline?

It will cost them significantly more to start cancelling flights because they can't staff them. How do they staff them? They can pay captains better, or they can force the seniority problem to the side.
As someone else already stated merging Encore reduces flexibility.

Anything that is done to fix Encore is going to cost money, the one thing that is unlikely is seniority accumulated flow. As the WestJet moves to a more traditional seniority style airline the willingness to allow any sort of preferential seniority carryover will diminish with all members of the pilot group.

That leaves:
  • 1: Sell Encore with a CPA which will require a CPA that will allow the new owner to pay well enough to make Encore attractive enough to be a career airline.
    2. Pay well enough at Encore to make it attractive as a career airline.
By pay I mean all WACON not just $$$. Both options will mean some people will leave for other companies but will leave a core group to continue training and operations. Encore has been, for the most part, looked at as a way station it needs to be looked at as a viable destination for a percentage of the pilots. There was already pilots complaining about the length of time it was going to take to flow from Encore to WestJet before flow was cancelled or the length of time to upgrade at WestJet for that matter. Those pilots looking for only that fast career progression will be looking to leave right now no matter what.
---------- ADS -----------
  

plhought
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 468
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:02 am
Location: Calgary

Re: One List

Post by plhought » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:42 pm

Maybe chat to your mechanics a bit more. Encore and WestJet's AMOs are due to be completely 'merged' by May 2020.

Encore AMEs will make same as WestJet AMEs by the same timeframe.

If Onex was interested in selling they would have stopped this process long ago. Pretty hard to sell an operation like Encore without an AMO to maintain it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sharklasers
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: One List

Post by Sharklasers » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:36 pm

Stratopaused wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:38 am

This is something that no one has been able to back up: why would Onex sell Encore, and who would buy it? Q400s aren't in demand at all, let alone used ones, and no one is going to pick up a CPA involving a regional airline that is hemorrhaging pilots so fast that it can't meet the requirements of that CPA. Encore has no physical assets besides the aircraft, and all the crew will bail if there's even more uncertainty about our futures. We aren't even sticking around when we're already part of WestJet and ostensibly will eventually flow; if Encore is spun off, it'll be shut down within a year for lack of crew, and WestJet will lose its regional partner. Brilliant strategy.
Unfortunately this isn’t new territory, I’m sure the “Air Canada Regional” Pilots said and thought the same things. There won’t be one buyer. The private equity firm may do what private equity firms have done thousands of times across all industry’s and package Encore with a lucrative 10 year CPA and take it public on the TSX. There won’t be one ‘buyer’. By the time the CPA becomes onerous on Westjet onex will have either sold their position in the company or renegotiate with the separate company Encore.
The private equity firm that took Air Canada through bankruptcy and restructuring raised nearly a billion dollars selling Jazz in the exact same way, which at the time owned old RJs and dash classics and the rusting hulks of a few F28s. Also bear in mind that Jazz was a company who’s continued financial success was tied to a company who had very recently exited bankruptcy protection. If onex was so inclined to spin out encore to ‘focus on their core strengths’ it would stand to raise a billion or more.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... e17978396/
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: One List

Post by cloak » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:51 pm

sarg wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:19 pm

As someone else already stated merging Encore reduces flexibility.

Anything that is done to fix Encore is going to cost money, the one thing that is unlikely is seniority accumulated flow. As the WestJet moves to a more traditional seniority style airline the willingness to allow any sort of preferential seniority carryover will diminish with all members of the pilot group.

That leaves:
  • 1: Sell Encore with a CPA which will require a CPA that will allow the new owner to pay well enough to make Encore attractive enough to be a career airline.
    2. Pay well enough at Encore to make it attractive as a career airline.
...
I don't think Onex will have to make Encore a career airline. While some may make that choice, no regional airline normally is. There may be another option: sell it to another airline and then enter into a long term CPA. This could be an airline like Porter or Georgian, or a new start-up. It could also involve some small regional jets envisioned in the CBA. That will change the perspective entirely and manage wawcon by new owners.

After all, Air Canada does not own any of its regional carriers which have similar wawcon to Encore, has no guaranteed flow, and it too hires directly if it wishes, and pays little for the first 4 years, yet has no trouble finding candidates either directly or through its regionals, including Sky regional which it started to manage expectations at the regional level. Onex no doubt is aware of that option too. On the other hand, if Encore carries on delivering a reliable product, new opportunities will present themselves, and losing the one list may not seem that bad then.
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1692
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: One List

Post by fish4life » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:10 am

If this was all 10 years ago I think selling encore would make sense but the industry trend right now is actually moving back towards owning your regionals. AC just spent 100million to buy back into jazz which is probably just the first step in gaining more control and keeping more of its CPA money.

It costs more money to get someone else to do work that has to make a profit than by doing it yourself, airlines were selling their regionals when they needed liquidity which isn’t the case at the moment.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: One List

Post by cloak » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:28 pm

fish4life wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:10 am
If this was all 10 years ago I think selling encore would make sense but the industry trend right now is actually moving back towards owning your regionals...
Even if that were the case, it need not come with a common list. It is unlikely that Air Canada would want to merge its list with Jazz anytime soon. And it is possible for a corporation to own more than one company.

Also, don't forget merging the lists would mean recognizing past years of service that presents an immediate and clear increase in payroll which would be substantial and Onex (or Air Canada) are unlikely to want to open that can of worms!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Stratopaused
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:39 pm

Sharklasers wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:36 pm
Unfortunately this isn’t new territory, I’m sure the “Air Canada Regional” Pilots said and thought the same things. There won’t be one buyer. The private equity firm may do what private equity firms have done thousands of times across all industry’s and package Encore with a lucrative 10 year CPA and take it public on the TSX. There won’t be one ‘buyer’. By the time the CPA becomes onerous on Westjet onex will have either sold their position in the company or renegotiate with the separate company Encore.
The private equity firm that took Air Canada through bankruptcy and restructuring raised nearly a billion dollars selling Jazz in the exact same way, which at the time owned old RJs and dash classics and the rusting hulks of a few F28s. Also bear in mind that Jazz was a company who’s continued financial success was tied to a company who had very recently exited bankruptcy protection. If onex was so inclined to spin out encore to ‘focus on their core strengths’ it would stand to raise a billion or more.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... e17978396/
This isn't 2006, and WestJet isn't what Air Canada was. Air Canada was bankrupt and desperate for cash; WestJet is profitable. Jazz was spun off at a time when 5000-hour 704 captains were climbing over each other to get into the right seat of a Dash. Without the carrot of the One List, Encore can't even find 1000-hour instructors anymore. This isn't the same market. Onex might make $100 million on an IPO of Encore, but I seriously suspect it would work out to significantly less than that once investors got a look at what Encore actually has: 45 used Q400s, plus two additional leased ones, and a demotivated workforce that can't cover the work that's already been allotted to them. Even if they managed to make $100 million, and that's a big if, Encore already earns almost that much annually in revenue, so what would be the point? You can sell one of the tires off your car to make a quick buck, but if you can't get to work you'll be worse-off financially in the long run.
cloak wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:51 pm
I don't think Onex will have to make Encore a career airline. While some may make that choice, no regional airline normally is. There may be another option: sell it to another airline and then enter into a long term CPA. This could be an airline like Porter or Georgian, or a new start-up. It could also involve some small regional jets envisioned in the CBA. That will change the perspective entirely and manage wawcon by new owners.

After all, Air Canada does not own any of its regional carriers which have similar wawcon to Encore, has no guaranteed flow, and it too hires directly if it wishes, and pays little for the first 4 years, yet has no trouble finding candidates either directly or through its regionals, including Sky regional which it started to manage expectations at the regional level. Onex no doubt is aware of that option too. On the other hand, if Encore carries on delivering a reliable product, new opportunities will present themselves, and losing the one list may not seem that bad then.
First of all, you're objectively wrong about flow from Jazz to AC: there's a 60% guarantee, whereas Encore has no guarantee; that's a huge reason Jazz has stabilized their staffing while Encore has gotten worse. That was the entire purpose of AC re-opening the CPA last winter: they had to offer Jazz pilots a carrot to keep them from fleeing to greener pastures and cancelling flights. Encore is going to have to do that even if it doesn't get split off.
Encore carries on delivering a reliable product
Encore already isn't doing that. What aren't you getting about that? Encore is cancelling flights and putting passengers on buses because it doesn't have enough pilots, and that reflects badly on WestJet. It's difficult to have a discussion about this subject with someone so ill-informed.
Second, you are once again very condescendingly assuming that current Encore pilots would remain in the company after an IPO with our current contract and no career stability. The new owners would have to double salaries and reduce working days by 25% to get current employees to even think about staying if we weren't sure we were going to still be employed in a few years. The only attraction of Encore is that it's part of WestJet, and that someday we may move over there, so without at least the possibility of flow there would be no reason to stay under the current WAWCON.
The first day of an independent Encore CPA, the company would already be in violation of the contract, because they wouldn't be able to operate all the flights, and they would have to offer so much to retain employees that the contract wouldn't be worthwhile. With 550 pilots, half of them theoretically being captains, salaries alone are already $50 million, so a new CPA would have to be close to $100 million per year, just in wages; why would Onex spin off Encore for $100 million if they're then going to have spend more than that each year on the CPA? Encore will have no MRO, no hangars, and no office space for corporate and operations staff, so all of that is going to cost way more than just keeping it in-house.
new opportunities will present themselves, and losing the one list may not seem that bad then.
Oh great, super, we'll just hang in there then and keep providing a reliable product for your benefit, with our already sub-standard wages and scheduling, because maybe someday we'll get jets!!! Awesome!!! We'll lose our career certainty, but we'll just keep benefiting WestJet and WestJet pilots, because we're subservient to you, right? "Here's a big bowl of shit, and maybe if you're lucky I'll put some sprinkles on it. Say thank you for my generosity." No one is going to stay after losing their career paths, because maybe down the road we'll get some new exciting opportunities, so stow your condescension.
Look, if Onex were interested in taking WestJet back to the all-jet days, or even reverting entirely to an LCC model, they could have bought Transat or Sunwing and shifted their strategies. They could even have bought into Flair or Jetlines and actually made them viable options. But they didn't. They're buying a mature airline, including its regional turboprop division, as it transitions into an international operation, and there are no successful North American airlines following that model that have been able to do so without regional feed. Whether Encore remains part of WestJet remains to be seen - I personally see no benefit to anyone in splitting it off - but the fact of the matter remains that Encore is having massive difficulty crewing all of its flights. The simplest way to resolve that is to bring back some form of the One List. If that doesn't happen, the company will have to dump huge amounts of cash onto Encore pilots just to keep them from leaving even faster than they already are, and that probably still won't be enough to attract qualified applicants in this market. If Encore is going to continue moving 25000 passengers per day in the WestJet network, something major has to be done, and I really hope WestJet pilots are willing to acknowledge the importance of Encore to the current strategy. Otherwise, the company will have to abandon any city with fewer than about 150000 people, and there's going to be a lot less growth and a lot fewer upgrades.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sharpe5
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:40 pm

Re: One List

Post by sharpe5 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:41 pm

.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by sharpe5 on Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
George Taylor
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:21 am

Re: One List

Post by George Taylor » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:58 pm

Stratopaused wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:39 pm
If Encore is going to continue moving 25000 passengers per day in the WestJet network, something major has to be done, and I really hope WestJet pilots are willing to acknowledge the importance of Encore to the current strategy. Otherwise, the company will have to abandon any city with fewer than about 150000 people, and there's going to be a lot less growth and a lot fewer upgrades.
It has nothing to do with the WestJet pilots, you are so misguided. It's the corporation that determines your value. Stop with the pity me attitude.
---------- ADS -----------
  

citizenbanana
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:45 am

Re: One List

Post by citizenbanana » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:04 pm

Ridiculous as always stratopaused. The sky won't fall without the one list. Encore will keep operating the same as every other regional.
---------- ADS -----------
  

lostaviator
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: One List

Post by lostaviator » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:10 pm

Strato,

WJ has never broken down revenue between the companies - they are all reported as one. Even when asked, management won’t comment on exact revenue numbers of wj, encore, and Swoop.

So, where are you getting your information? Or... what exactly is your position within wj?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: One List

Post by aerobod » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:10 am

Using FlightStats monthly data (https://www.flightstats.com/v2/monthly- ... s/airlines), the flight cancellation percentage of scheduled flights over the past 6 months for Encore compared with Jazz and Porter (100 - Completion Factor) is:

Encore (May - Oct 2019) - 1.51, 0.84, 1.37, 3.11, 4.15, 1.17 - Average 2.03% or ~6 flights out of ~300 per day
Jazz (May - Oct 2019) - 1.43, 3.16, 4.07, 3.09, 3.22, 2.90 - Average 2.98% or ~19 flights out of ~630 per day
Porter (May - Oct 2019) - 4.58, 3.19, 4.37, 3.18, 2.02, 2.42 - Average 3.29% or ~6 flights out of ~170 per day

So nothing unusual about the number of flight cancellations Encore has had compared with the competition, with all having monthly variations up to just over 4%.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Raincoast
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:53 pm

Re: One List

Post by Raincoast » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:43 am

We'll lose our career certainty,
When I did my PPL, my basic instructors were guys/gals who were on a layoff from AirCanada; look at the guys/gals who worked for the Alberta provincial Air service or the Manitoba Provincial air service - career jobs all, with 'certainty'...

If you want 'career certainty', become an obstetrician or an undertaker.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: One List

Post by Transonic » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:23 am

Hey Stratopaused,

The culture people at WestJet have done a great job expressing the Why of our jobs which is reflected in your posts regarding Encore’s contribution. I sense the Encore group has morphed this to a popularized idea that mainline is reaping the rewards off Encore’s contribution.

I offer a different view point. IMHO, I believe the company purely views our relationship as simply transactional. We do work and are paid, full stop. There is nothing owed beyond that. Once you view your relationship with WestJet as transactional, things make more sense.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Stratopaused
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Transonic wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:23 am
Hey Stratopaused,

The culture people at WestJet have done a great job expressing the Why of our jobs which is reflected in your posts regarding Encore’s contribution. I sense the Encore group has morphed this to a popularized idea that mainline is reaping the rewards off Encore’s contribution.

I offer a different view point. IMHO, I believe the company purely views our relationship as simply transactional. We do work and are paid, full stop. There is nothing owed beyond that. Once you view your relationship with WestJet as transactional, things make more sense.
I also view the relationship as transactional, but a large component of my compensation, according to the agreement when I was hired, was that I would make less money while working at Encore in exchange for a guaranteed position at WestJet and the associated higher income that would go along with it. That is to say, I viewed the transaction as being an overall exchange of labour for money over the course of about thirty years. Instead, that agreement was pulled out from under me, and I now find myself making a lower-than-average wage, without any idea of whether I will be able to make those losses back in the future. The terms of my employment have changed, without any input from me, and I've lost money as a result. I don't see any reason to stay any longer. If the company wants to keep me, and the transactional relationship going forward is going to be a direct one-for-one hour-for-pay exchange with no flow, then they're going to have to raise my wages and ESPP to what the jet pilots are making, and reduce my number of working days, or this relationship won't be worthwhile for me. That might not even be enough to make me happy, because the company won't even allow me to apply at WestJet, so they're treating me worse than an OTS pilot, despite spending years safely operating flights for them. There's a lot of resentment that's going to need to be overcome. I'm just waiting to hear back about an interview, and I'm far from the only one who's ready to bail.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Stratopaused
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:04 pm

Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:00 pm

George Taylor wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:58 pm
It has nothing to do with the WestJet pilots, you are so misguided. It's the corporation that determines your value. Stop with the pity me attitude.
It has everything to do with the WestJet pilots, and you're deluding yourself if you think you're blameless. Encore stood alongside WestJet pilots and supported them every step of the way with regards to contract negotiations and Swoop, and you turned around and stabbed us in the backs. You, not management, took away the One List. You betrayed us, but you still expect loyalty and respect. You took one of the most united pilot groups on the planet and shattered it. We don't feel like we belong as part of WestJet anymore, we feel like a completely separate entity because you threw us under the bus, and management drove the bus right over us. We're tired of being asked to taxi single-engine and wait until the cabin temperature is uncomfortable before starting the APU, all to help with boosting profit share, when we make so little that we only get a few bucks of that profit share. We get half the ESPP matching you do, and we make a fraction as much overall, so we're barely benefiting from the boost in the stock price. We're getting extended, cold-called, and having our schedules changed. We're working harder, for less money, and what thanks do we get? We lose the One List, and we get yelled at by mainline pilots for adhering to our contract rule which says Encore pilots in uniform get priority in the jumpseat, because we're "just Encore pilots!", the mainline guys "should get it because we make way more money for the company than you ever will!", and "I've been here way longer than him, so I've earned it".
If there's any hope of ever fixing the relationship between WestJet and Encore pilots, it has to be a mutual effort, and it has to be based on respect. If you're expecting us to come grovelling for forgiveness for our insolence and showing deference, it's never going to happen. If a future Pilot Transfer Agreement is proposed to help alleviate Encore's staffing issues, it's going to require the support of the WestJet pilots; management wants the PTA to pass, because the alternative is not financially viable, and Encore pilots obviously want it. The only ones standing in the way of it are WestJet pilots, so don't try and pass the blame onto the "corporation".
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”