WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport.

[vrefplus5]

Realitychex aka "The Bean" and for that matter, you too MD2, keep your excellent spin and repartee to AEF. A much more seasoned and battle-scarred audience there awaits. Thanks

[Realitychex]

Do you think the chances of City Council approving runway extensions at CYTZ are improved or worsened by comments like those of WJ? Worsened, I would say, as I think would most people watching the controversy. Including WJ's CEO.

In which case for an operator without slots there who genuinely wants to operate jets the only sensible thing is to keep very very quiet. Not shoot its mouth off about 737s that don't exist yet.

A significant proportion of WJ's 737-800's are fitted with the Short Field Performance kit, which was developed specifically for GOL for use at SDU's 4,337 foot runway, just 349 feet longer than YTZ.

Porter's proposal would lengthen the runway to at least 5,000', almost 700 feet longer than SDU.

Here's Gol landing at SDU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrTvgQbCpWE

Clearly, the aircraft currently exists. Should the runway be extended in accordance with Porter's desires, WJ already has a jet that can comfortably operate to pretty much anywhere within 500 miles of the GTA.

When the MAX deliveries start shortly after the completion of the proposed extension, performance will be just that much better.

http://www.b737.org.uk/flightcontrols.h ... nt_Program

SDU is restricted to 23 operations per hour and to narrow-body, military and general aviation aircraft only due to short runway lengths and a difficult approach. The airport serves domestic destinations only, with Avianca Brazil, TAM Airlines, Gol and Azul all having significant networks at Santos Dumont.

[photofly]

Per the hand of WJ's CEO, writing to city council, it's not the runway length that's the issue, it's the noise. No jet WJ flies meets the noise threshold, and their future 737s that might are still fantasy aircraft.

Smoke and mirrors.

[leftoftrack]

Does westjet get a sub fleet of c-series aircraft to operate out of the island airport if the restriction is lifted on solely the cs100, which would then affect the relationship with Boeing. And would they have encoure operate these aircraft for them. At 66000/yr and a reduced esp?

[Realitychex]

Does westjet get a sub fleet of c-series aircraft to operate out of the island airport if the restriction is lifted on solely the cs100, which would then affect the relationship with Boeing. And would they have encoure operate these aircraft for them. At 66000/yr and a reduced esp?

I don't think our largest trading partners would be particularly impressed if rules were set in ANY industry that "accidentally on purpose" resulted in only a Canadian assembled product meeting the carefully crafted, exclusionary rules.

The potential for a disastrous (for Canada), tit for tat trade war where Canadian made products were discriminated against in favor of homegrown products would be too great to risk such a gambit.

Canada might win the battle, but we'd lose the trade war. As a trading nation located along the border with an 800lb gorilla, such a move would be pretty dumb.

[photofly]

I don't think our largest trading partners would be particularly impressed if rules were set in ANY industry that "accidentally on purpose" resulted in only a Canadian assembled product meeting the carefully crafted, exclusionary rules.

Except that the tripartite agreement has since 2003 singled out the "Dehaviland Dash-8" (paragraph 1(d)(2)) as a permitted aircraft at CYTZ, and that's a Canadian product. I see no evidence of ground forces massing on the southern shore of Lake Ontario in advance of an invasion.

[Old fella]

"........I see no evidence of ground forces massing on the southern shore of Lake Ontario in advance of an invasion."




Lessons from Vietnam, Afghanstan and later Iraq come to mind,so CYTZ pull up the draw bridge, ye ole moat is yer protector…

[photofly]

By the way if we want to argue about trade wars, could we please join together in a campaign against Canada's 245.5% import tariff against cheese? Unbelievable.

[leftoftrack]

The U.S.A. Is broke and there going to go to war (trade) over a municipal government decision to restrict access to a small airport that was abandoned commercially in 2004? I doubt it

[Fanblade]

I don't think our largest trading partners would be particularly impressed if rules were set in ANY industry that "accidentally on purpose" resulted in only a Canadian assembled product meeting the carefully crafted, exclusionary rules.

Except that the tripartite agreement has since 2003 singled out the "Dehaviland Dash-8" (paragraph 1(d)(2)) as a permitted aircraft at CYTZ, and that's a Canadian product. I see no evidence of ground forces massing on the southern shore of Lake Ontario in advance of an invasion.

Hmmm

What manufacturer competes with the -8 program south of the boarder? I think Boeing would be very sensitive to a politically contribed situation that contributed to the launch of direct competition.

But to be absolutely sure I think we should check the South Shore of Lake Ontario for Brazilian militia. Not sure how they got over the Mexican boarder though. While we are at it we should blockade the shipping lane between St Pierre and Miquelon.

Cut the BS. Everyone in, or no one in. Protecting a monopoly is NOT in the best interest of the public. My 12 year old knows this. I'm not even sure why people bother to engage the spin going on with the YTZ issue.

Everyone or no one. If they don't want the noise? Its no one. Simple.

[photofly]

I'm not even sure why people bother to engage the spin going on with the YTZ issue.

Because we're guardedly grateful to Deluce from preventing Miller from turning the airport into a park for the benefit of people with waterfront condos, and we know full well Air Canada and WJ would be happy with that outcome too. Deluce is the only one with a financial interest in keeping CYTZ open. Which as a pilot flying out of there suits me best, and f**k the public interest, monopolies and lack of competition.

[bmc]

As good as Porter is, as I've been told, I think it would die a slow painful if the island was closed and it was forced to move ops to Pearson. The island is Porter's key to success. It's also AC and WJ's thorn.

We'll now watch Deloce try to keep everybody out, while the others do everything possible to get it shut down. Or open to everyone else.

A lot at stake for all three airlines.

[Grey_Wolf]

Cut the BS. Everyone in, or no one in. Protecting a monopoly is NOT in the best interest of the public.

[Old fella]

I don’t know that much about YTZ operations other than the fact I have flown in there a few times with Porter and AC. Very convenient to say the least if Toronto is your final destination. It would seem to me Deluce ‘s business plan is a success and well utilized consequently closure of YTZ in its entirety would seem farfetched. Deluce , no doubt has influence with the powers to be and business community in and around Toronto. How far his influence reaches at YTZ expansion for C Series ops and a possible WJ interest with their latest B737 version remains to be seen.
I would say YTZ will be operating at its current status/structure for a very long time

[Realitychex]

I don’t know that much about YTZ operations other than the fact I have flown in there a few times with Porter and AC. Very convenient to say the least if Toronto is your final destination. It would seem to me Deluce ‘s business plan is a success and well utilized consequently closure of YTZ in its entirety would seem farfetched. Deluce , no doubt has influence with the powers to be and business community in and around Toronto. How far his influence reaches at YTZ expansion for C Series ops and a possible WJ interest with their latest B737 version remains to be seen.
I would say YTZ will be operating at its current status/structure for a very long time

You might reconsider that position if you took a hard look at their financial statements....

Sure its convenient. But so to is DCA, LGA, BUR and countless other urban airports on the planet for many. The difference is, no airline has anything close to the near monopoly afforded Porter at YTZ.

Note London City Center Airports FIDs screens:

http://www.londoncityairport.com/travel ... departures

I count at least 6 different airlines operating there to a variety of destinations.

Here's SDU's FIDs info.

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightSta ... ueryType=1

Lots of competition there to, eh?

Then there's Billy Bishop Airport, quite possibly the only passenger airport in the world that doesn't even bother to have a working Arrival and Departure web page of its own.

Why bother?

[photofly]

@realitychex

I get the idea you actually want Porter to fold and CYTZ to close. Would you be happier with that outcome?

[leftoftrack]

I don’t know that much about YTZ operations other than the fact I have flown in there a few times with Porter and AC. Very convenient to say the least if Toronto is your final destination. It would seem to me Deluce ‘s business plan is a success and well utilized consequently closure of YTZ in its entirety would seem farfetched. Deluce , no doubt has influence with the powers to be and business community in and around Toronto. How far his influence reaches at YTZ expansion for C Series ops and a possible WJ interest with their latest B737 version remains to be seen.
I would say YTZ will be operating at its current status/structure for a very long time

You might reconsider that position if you took a hard look at their financial statements....

Sure its convenient. But so to is DCA, LGA, BUR and countless other urban airports on the planet for many. The difference is, no airline has anything close to the near monopoly afforded Porter at YTZ.

Note London City Center Airports FIDs screens:

http://www.londoncityairport.com/travel ... departures

I count at least 6 different airlines operating there to a variety of destinations.

Here's SDU's FIDs info.

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightSta ... ueryType=1

Lots of competition there to, eh?

Then there's Billy Bishop Airport, quite possibly the only passenger airport in the world that doesn't even bother to have a working Arrival and Departure web page of its own.

Why bother?

You do know that airport was abandoned for years before porter went in there. It is all of porters infrastructure that makes that airport operate. No other city center airport will you find that either

[YYZSaabGuy]

You do know that airport was abandoned for years before porter went in there. It is all of porters infrastructure that makes that airport operate. No other city center airport will you find that either

Nothing against Porter, but that's not accurate. Air Ontario (later acquired by Jazz) operated there for 16 years before Porter terminated its terminal lease and started operations in the Autumn of 2006. And with respect to infrastructure: sure, Porter built a nice new terminal and has several hangars on site, but last time I checked, the TPA owns and operates the runways, taxiways, ferry service, the water aerodrome, the emergency services, and the under-construction pedestrian tunnel. Porter has been great for YTZ but it does not provide all of the infrastructure by any means.

[leftoftrack]

You do know that airport was abandoned for years before porter went in there. It is all of porters infrastructure that makes that airport operate. No other city center airport will you find that either

Nothing against Porter, but that's not accurate. Air Ontario (later acquired by Jazz) operated there for 16 years before Porter terminated its terminal lease and started operations in the Autumn of 2006. And with respect to infrastructure: sure, Porter built a nice new terminal and has several hangars on site, but last time I checked, the TPA owns and operates the runways, taxiways, ferry service, the water aerodrome, the emergency services, and the under-construction pedestrian tunnel. Porter has been great for YTZ but it does not provide all of the infrastructure by any means.

Now your just making shit up.

Jazz had long abandoned the island. Think about it from a business perspective, do you want Jazz (at the time owned by air canada see to big to fail) as a partner or do you want a random start up with a name that is tied to failure in aviation (deluce). Check your facts YYZ the only reason the island is there is despite the politics of the time deluce built it

[photofly]

Let me see... Jazz/AC/WJ with big bases elsewhere and a long-term interest in seeing CYTZ closed for commercial operations ... or Porter, with nowhere else to operate from.

I'll take Porter every time.

[YYZSaabGuy]

You do know that airport was abandoned for years before porter went in there. It is all of porters infrastructure that makes that airport operate. No other city center airport will you find that either

Nothing against Porter, but that's not accurate. Air Ontario (later acquired by Jazz) operated there for 16 years before Porter terminated its terminal lease and started operations in the Autumn of 2006. And with respect to infrastructure: sure, Porter built a nice new terminal and has several hangars on site, but last time I checked, the TPA owns and operates the runways, taxiways, ferry service, the water aerodrome, the emergency services, and the under-construction pedestrian tunnel. Porter has been great for YTZ but it does not provide all of the infrastructure by any means.

Now your just making shit up.

Jazz had long abandoned the island. Think about it from a business perspective, do you want Jazz (at the time owned by air canada see to big to fail) as a partner or do you want a random start up with a name that is tied to failure in aviation (deluce). Check your facts YYZ the only reason the island is there is despite the politics of the time deluce built it

See, there's this cool new website out there called wikipedia - granted, not always 100% accurate, but until you've got something more credible, I'll take it - have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Bish ... ty_Airport:

Airport passenger traffic declined in the 1990s. Although a new airline entered the island marketplace, City Express folded. In the early 1990s there was a further decline due to an economic downturn. Additionally, the airport lost its subsidies from the Province of Ontario and Government of Canada. Around the same period Toronto Harbour Commission began to receive an annual subsidy from the City of Toronto.[57] During the 1990s, the Harbour Commission transferred much of its harbour lands to the City of Toronto for economic development and waterfront revitalization in exchange for future subsidies.

In 1990, Air Ontario (later to become Air Canada Jazz) started operating regional airline service to Ottawa and Montreal. That year, City Express folded in bankruptcy. In 1994, Jazz built a new terminal, moving out of trailers. That year, the airport was renamed the Toronto City Centre Airport.

The Toronto Harbour Commission made plans to expand the airport so as to achieve self-sufficiency, as it was dependent on subsidies from the City of Toronto.[57] The situation lead the THC to transfer much of its land to the City in exchange for an on-going subsidy. In 1992, the THC proposed to build a bridge to the airport for safety reasons and as an improvement, at a cost of $8 million. THC's plans were initially opposed by Toronto City Council, but after the THC threatened to close the airport, an agreement was reached. Council agreed to a bridge on condition of continuing the 'no jets' ban, and that it not be built with Toronto tax dollars.[58] After the City of Toronto was amalgamated, the plan was re-opened, and a tunnel proposed instead, but the new Toronto City Council approved a bridge in 1998.[59]

In 1999, the operation of the airport was turned over to the new Toronto Port Authority (TPA), which took over the responsibilities of the Harbour Commission, including the airport and port functions.[60] Unlike the previous Harbour Commission, the Port Authority used a different management structure and a different management focus. Its new board of directors contained fewer members appointed by the City of Toronto. The Authority was also expected to manage the port more like a business. A review of the airport operations concluded that the airport "is not sustainable and will likely lead to continued financial losses."[61] Passenger volumes had declined to 140,000 annually from a peak of 400,000 in 1987. The consultants concluded that if services were upgraded to include small jets, that possibly 900,000 passengers could be carried by 2020. The report proposed a $16 million bridge and $2 million in runway upgrades.[61]

By 2005, the airport recorded about 68,000 flights,[62] down from a historic high of 240,000 in 1967.[63] The only carrier operating at the airport was Air Canada affiliate Air Canada Jazz, operating flights between Toronto and Ottawa. In 2006, Jazz lost access to terminal space at the airport and was forced out of the airport. Jazz had been leasing terminal space month-to-month from City Centre Aviation Limited (CCAL), a private company that was taken over by REGCO Holdings, a new company led by Robert Deluce, in 2005. On January 31, 2006, CCAL issued Jazz with a 30-day termination notice.[64] Two days later, on February 2, REGCO's new Porter Airlines venture was announced.[65] Jazz contacted the TPA on February 3 to find other space. However the TPA did not have any space for Jazz to use[66] and on February 15, 2006, Jazz announced a 'temporary' suspension of flights for the month of March.[64] This subsequently became permanent.

[photofly]

in terms of whether CYTZ forms a separate market: The Competition Bureau already decided it doesn't:

In terms of the geographic dimension of the market, our view is that the relevant geographic market encompasses the provision of airline services to and from the Greater Toronto Area. In this regard, we consider that TCCA and Pearson draw passengers from the same catchment area and that services from these two airports compete with one another.

We understand that each airport has certain locational and other advantages that are not available at the other airport. For example, because of the large scale and scope of Pearson’s facilities, it can handle connecting traffic while TCAA [sic] is essentially serving point-to-point passengers. However, it would appear from the evidence that we have reviewed that either air carrier can provide a competitive service for passengers travelling to or from the Toronto area, including passengers located close to the downtown core.

This was the case in the 1980’s when City Express competed with Air Canada on a number of routes offered at both TCCA and Pearson and we do not see any reason why the situation would be different in today’s environment. We also note the survey evidence that has been done which shows that even with limited frequency and no significant price differences between the service available at Pearson and at TCAA [sic], some passengers continue to use air services offered from both airports. It would appear to us very unlikely that even a monopolist carrier at TCAA [sic] could exercise market power given the competing alternatives of flying to Pearson and possibly other airports (Hamilton and Buttonville) in the region. In light of the proximity of the two airports and the evidence of substitution and competitive interaction from previous periods, it is our conclusion that air services offered from either Pearson or TCCA are part of the same geographic market.

Given this definition of the relevant market, it is clear that Regco will not be dominant in terms of airline services.

As quoted in the 2010 Air Canada lawsuit judgement, which AC lost on almost every point argued.

[Ah_yeah]

Runway extension (paid for by somebody else) increases the value of Porter. This is important to consider when IPO attempts of the past were met with the sound of crickets from the investment community. Flying any jet on a transcon ( LAX as trumpeted by Deluce ) from 4500' is a joke. Thus, revert back to sentence one.

[photofly]

It's a joke, or it increases the value of Porter. It can't do both.

[Ah_yeah]

It's a joke, or it increases the value of Porter. It can't do both.

Two different statements. Anybody that has sat at the pointy end of at least medium jet knows that you'll never achieve balanced field with fuel and pax for the purported routes...."whisper" jets or not.
However, increase the viability of the property on which you control almost all of the slots, cha-ching.