Union at West Jet

[7thirtyseven]

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[My_own_priorities]

The animus for my post was not to expose my flaws, it was to counter vague innuendo and unprovable anecdotes and buzzwords by those with a long standing agenda.

[WJ200]

my_own_priorities.....the union drivers will try to dissuade your arguments using any means they can. You had a very succinct post which thankfully represents the other 1150 pilots. Thanks for posting that.

[7thirtyseven]

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[Lateralus]

I find this jumping on my_own_priorities bandwagon comical. Ya lets all band behind a dude that by his own admission is untrustworthy!!!!! Waaaahooo, thats clear thinking!
Artic perhaps a union could save us from ourselves....

What are you talking about? Where did he admit he was untrustworthy? He admitted he was an asshole, douche bag, loud mouth, admitted his flaws, admitted he got in trouble and was his fault and he held himself accountable. Sorry how is that untrustworthy?

This is the most balanced post on here, and his post is in line with 95% of the guys on line that I have flown with or spoken to. Again nice post.

[Lateralus]

The animus for my post was not to expos my flaws, it was to counter vague innuendo and unprovable anecdotes and buzzwords by those with a long standing agenda.

Ahhh of course! Yet by your own admission you were/are such a tool you had to have a heart to heart with two overworked fellow pilots. You are on some kind of behavior modification plan, and you still have so little control, moments after claiming you wont join a website, you do. "my bad".

Im fine with the help you are recieving, Im fine with how you were dealt with Im fine with your post being part of a recovery plan. I hate to break it to you, but your post also reflect a long held agenda and you are an untrustworthy proponent of this agenda, and those jumping on the bandwagon have pathetic judgement skills.

Keep getting better.

Haha so we should clearly trust you, the guy who resorts to name calling? What a joke!

[My_own_priorities]

Look at the time of my post 7Thirtyseven. I posted here and they took two days to approve it (as a new poster). In the intervening time, I simply thought they were going to bin the post as I mentioned two actual names (SD and KM), so I joined that grumpier forum and recreated the same post. *** Yeah, about that. Over a period of 36-48 hours with no response on my post submission, I assumed it was doomed. I felt that I had a message. So yeah, I signed up for that other forum, when I had 48 hours earlier said I wouldn't. Next. ***

I admit I have all the qualities and traits I mentioned. I exposed those qualities for the company leadership to see, and yet I still have my left seat. I wasn't downgraded, suspended, or terminated. That should give hope to all a$$holes who work at WJ. And all a$$holes who want to work at WJ. The management team does not arbitrarily discipline a$$holes. I was wrong in my conduct in the first place, and I have to pay for being an a$$hole by not ever again being an a$$hole at work. I can only be an a$$hole at home, or here on the anonymous internet.

How do unions deal with a$$holes?

[7thirtyseven]

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[My_own_priorities]

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[Red1]

For those who want a union, can I ask why ? What are you afraid of? Why do you think it will make things better? And what do you feel the long term affects will be?

[True North]

For those who want a union, can I ask why ? What are you afraid of? Why do you think it will make things better? And what do you feel the long term affects will be?

Don't expect an answer to those questions.

[7thirtyseven]

we cannot blindly cling to these examples in the face of a crumbling system.

A crumbling system? We are on the eve of unleashing a brand new arm of our company, and you think it's crumbling? We have over a billion dollars in the bank. Crumbling? More pilots to be hired this year. I have to ask, is everything ok at home? I'm not being a a$$hole (although I am allowed to be one on the internet), it is just that when guys/gals have trouble at home, it frequently follows them to work.

And I don't see blind adherence. Blind adherence would be the case perhaps, in the face of overwhelming numbers of pilots unfairly disciplined. Where are these examples? You show me yours, I'll show you mine (I already did though).

It has not kept up with growth? An easy phrase to utter, more difficult to illustrate concretely. Proof please.

Peace though. I am on the side of you being happy with your job.

I will spell it out... in the context of this thread the crumbling system is NOT the airline itself. I was referring to the traditional relationship between management and employee, in our case pilots. Neither can you get your sentence on blind adherence from my sentence you quoted above, I was referring to the clinging to examples of good, like yours, and not thinking of the instances where either individuals or groups have been dissatisfied, wronged or let down. Believe me, I like your story, I have my own, but we cannot assume that these are universal, we cannot assume that these singular examples wipe out a general angst.
We have for the past number of years, depended and drawn from a collective feeling of goodwill, and the "new airline syndrome" where the world is our oyster and we have hope for bright things, this has been wrongly attributed to "the relationship", and there are many that have concerns. To this day, there are no "guiding principles" for this relationship, there is nothing concrete, there is no accountability to an ideal of what the relationship should be or could be. Virtually 100% of the pilots will never experience what you have, so these bright and shinny moments are largely irrelevant, what would be relevant is something concrete, that can be accessed, refered to, learned etc. Something that the average dude can refer to and say, Yup, I know where I stand, I know what is expected of me, I know what I am accountable for. Yup, I know where manager stands, what is expected of him/her, what he/she is accountable for in this relationship.

I am convinced much of the appearance of the desire for a union, the appearance of dissatisfaction, is really just a desire for something concrete, definitions, and a code if you will of some kind of ethic, that the relationship between management and pilot operates on.

You want concrete proof that the relationship has not kept up with growth? We are 400% larger than when I started, we have 100 A/C plus, we live all over, have a subsidiary about to fly, have a global reach and through it all NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING has been invested in the relationship between management and pilot outside of panic bandaid fixes in times of crisis. You could even argue some has been taken away (Mandatory culturechats, call me a koolaid drinker, I thought they were extremely valuable).

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your story, and I am greatful for it, but singular stories cannot address a general angst. I know you are at a disadvantage because I know who you are, and you can only take wild guesses at who I may be, but be assured I also believe I am very fortunate to have this job, I want to keep it great for a long time, and I think its time to get serious, move to a relationship that doesn't survive or fall on stories alone. We have a great tradition started, lets formalize it abit so that it is relevant to both sides moving into the future.

PS, you got my drift on untrustworthy, right?

[Impact]

Well said My_own. Your comment was both sincere and realistic.

The silent majority is awakening, and finally opposing the extremely vocal 20+ whiners that inundate the WJPA forum. 7thirtyseven, you do not represent the views of the 1100 pilots that still hold the WJ culture close to their heart. Your name calling tactics are but a sign of how the vocal few try to silence the majority. It's pathetic really.

[Squid]

Kinda interesting some say they want to know where they stand, then on the other hand the same guys complain when internal policies are built (in conjunction with the principle players) then they say what happened to my empowerment? Or, "Too many policies" Just an observation. Kinda ironic though when ya think about it eh.

[7thirtyseven]

Well said My_own. Your comment was both sincere and realistic.

The silent majority is awakening, and finally opposing the extremely vocal 20+ whiners that inundate the WJPA forum. 7thirtyseven, you do not represent the views of the 1100 pilots that still hold the WJ culture close to their heart. Your name calling tactics are but a sign of how the vocal few try to silence the majority. It's pathetic really.

What is pathetic is that you havent understood one thing that I said... I called Mr my own priorities a bit of a tool, when he called himself an ahole I find it increadibly telling that you hold him up as a beacon of WestJet culture when, by his own admission his behaviour was way of base, and by his own admission logged on to a website he said he wouldnt and yet you have issues with me questioning if he is trustworthy???

If you care to take the time to actually comprehend my arguements through this thread you will find that that I believe it is time to get serious about our relationship with management, does this mean a union? No. Does this mean actually trying to make it work, drawing some accountability into the shifting sands for both parties, having at least an idea of what the roles are etc etc???? Yes!!%%

Stories and past goodwill are no longer enough, lovey dovey catchphrases only get you so far in any relationship, time to put a grownup face on it all....

Curiously enough, I recently had a conversation on this very topic with one of your wjpa execs, and guess what??? Its on the agenda immediately post MOA, Contract.... So I guess Im not that far off line.
One of the neat things about WJA is something called "engagement", one of the sad things about engagement is that those who are truly engaged, who truly care, who truly want to work for a better future are labeled as whinners by those to whom any question or disagreement is a threat.

I know this post is kind of like throwing a silk purse to a sow, but I urge you to think about what you define the culture as, what you see as your roles and responsibilities are in this culture and relationship, because the WJPA will need all of our expertise soon enough and throwing out implications that any one who doesnt think like you doesnt "hold the culture close to heart" only works in totalitarian regimes and cults. We need to get serious about it and find a way to collectively have our culture and traditions grow up, with out resorting to the cliche of unionization. Put yer thinkin' cap on.

[My_own_priorities]

I don't think anyone would suggest that I or my actions be held up as an example of the culture working. They just might, however, rightfully suggest that how I was treated was very telling of the ethos of the company, be that small scale (individual) or large scale (pilots,FAs,CSAs,etc).*** 7, I don't know how you blew the above response. No one held me up as a beacon. C'mon. Go remove that. That isn't fair. ***

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[My_own_priorities]

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[My_own_priorities]

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[7thirtyseven]

I don't think anyone would suggest that I or my actions be held up as an example of the culture working. They just might, however, rightfully suggest that how I was treated was very telling of the ethos of the company, be that small scale (individual) or large scale (pilots,FAs,CSAs,etc).

EDIT: I just logged in via laptop. Curious why you think you know who I am. I really couldn't care less who you are.

Yes I could.

I agree with that whole heartedly, as I have written before.... It is however, though it may be vitally relevant to you, just another campfire story, that others have campfire stories to dispute... We need to go beyond the campfire and get into some real meat so that there can be some consistancy in expectations and actions, both are vital from both side of the fence if we are going to continue our traditions that your story highlights the good of.

I understand that your cheerleaders will somehow interpret this as a whinny entitled union rant, but it is just the opposite, an engaged plea for us to work on the relationship, which for whatever reason has dimmed in many eyes, from "day oner" to Newb.

Your last post was uncalled for, I have a great relationship with my family, my neigbours and enjoy life to the full, I have enjoyed every second at WestJet, am grateful for both thelife its given me and the anticipation of the future. I defend the second floor, even though I believe its time for a shake up (every coach has a shelf life!).
I also am not a follower as you infer.... I run to my own agenda, which in this case is based on a belief that a relationship either moves forward or it dissolves, and that it is very difficult to move forward without a clear idea of the weakness and faults in the relationships. If that is being anti westjet, we really dont have the same view of life.
Yes I love a good internet brawl, but no I will not check out buddism!
PS If what I "describe seems like life" why cant we do it at Westjet in a constructive manner without all kinds coming out of the woodwork threatened by anyone who wants to even asses the status quo?

[My_own_priorities]

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[My_own_priorities]

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[7thirtyseven]

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[My_own_priorities]

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[My_own_priorities]

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[North Shore]

Gentlemen, (Ladies?)

While this is the internet, and we are thus a group of 15 year-olds hiding behind keyboard bravado in our parents' basement; and while I understand that opinions on the issue of unions and WJ culture are very deeply held, I would ask you to consider that your words on this subject would be somewhat different were you face-to-face over a few wobblypops...

Please conduct yourselves accordingly.