Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

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The Raven
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by The Raven »

The 10/16 conflict on the third approach was caused by the Encore going too slow (well below 160kts before Sarcee) according to ATC events. The slow Encore caused a conflict with the landing aircraft on 16, the Encore was requested to go around as they were the cause of the conflict.
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Last edited by The Raven on Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Boreas
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Boreas »

Encore bashing aside, better missed than unstable everytime - or at
least until you're on fumes!
countryhick wrote: My company requires a report for a single missed approach.
So does mine, and I absolutely disagree with the policy. However, in
the case of three missed approaches, they should probably write some
of the details down...
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FICU
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by FICU »

Of course "it's OK to go-around!" The crew did the right thing and I hope no one is questioning those 3 decisions. The questions are about what caused three consecutive unstable approaches at a major airport and is crew experience one of the factors due to the bottom of the industry WAWCON?

Had this happened in the US with a regional bottom feeder I'm sure even WJ pilots would be questioning it.
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whiteguy
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by whiteguy »

Boreas wrote:Encore bashing aside, better missed than unstable everytime - or at
least until you're on fumes!
countryhick wrote: My company requires a report for a single missed approach.
So does mine, and I absolutely disagree with the policy. However, in
the case of three missed approaches, they should probably write some
of the details down...
With most SMS programs a reports must be filed if there was a CADORS.
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FICU
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by FICU »

ATC in YYC always asks for 160 to the beacon so they don't expect you to be slower.
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7thirtyseven
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by 7thirtyseven »

Getting home safe every day is the ultimate goal, and seeing that there isnt a hunk of brand new metal at the end of the runway this crew accomplished that goal in the face of inevitable questions and/or ridicule.

Given the dumb reasons Ive gone aroud for, and the dumb reasons Ive "continued" for... I wont be throwing stones.
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Lateralus
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Lateralus »

monkey wrote:why do some of you guys at wj automatically trash jazz whenever your own airline mess up. Jazz is a safe airline and I have no problem flying with them, time will tell what kind of applicants encores wages have attracted.

Lateralus - helping people out is the best part of this forum for sure, i'm sure we seem like smug assH*** when ripping on encore but encore causes a big hit on wages in this profession. Ask any Jazz guys how they feel about it? What about the chances of skyregional getting hire wages now as a result? What about all the other 705 turboprop operators (Canadian North, First Air etc etc) that will use encore pay scales against them in negotiations.
Monkey its not just guys ripping on Encore, its this forum in general. Take a look at the employment forum and there is new CPL holder asking guys advice on jobs, and thee first few responses are highly experienced guys who should be mentors to the kid but instead bash him for not using the search function and then some tool (AC pilot I think) insults the guy.

How many times have threads on this forum become a pissing match. The problem with pilots is lot of them think they are a lot smarter than they are, and they aren't. This inevitably leads to bashing, name calling and pettiness and I have been guilty of it to, but I am choose to refrain from these pissing matches when I can. But this particular thread was posted by someone who was clearly trying to start an Encore bashing thread. But what I think is really sad is the OP who actively views the CADORS and then posts it on a public board to start a thread like this. I thank my lucky stars that I won't ever have to share a flight deck with that guy, and I sympathize with the people who aren't so lucky.

I was at Jazz for almost 5 years I know how Jazz guys feel about Encore and Sky Regional wages. I have been at WJ for just over a year and I can tell you no one I have flown with is happy with those wages. But you know what a lot of our guys here at WJ are trying to fix things at Encore, many are concerned and many have offered lots of great suggestions and the WJPA is doing what they can. And guess what none of the guys at "mainline" have to even bother, its not going to affect their lives but they do it anyway so the Encore guys will be treated well.

However that being said at the end of the day we all have to realize that pilots do not make these decisions, management does. It doesnt matter if you are at WJ, AC, Jazz, Transat, etc, union, no union. Management makes these decisions no matter how much we noise we make about it. Is it fair? No! But its the way our capitalist system works. I am by no means defending Encore wages but there is a hell of a lot more to it then the WJ "mainline" pilots screwing the Encore guys, not even close.

Now regarding this particular thread and the go arounds. Well no one here can judge or make assumptions that the guys were inexperienced. No one on this forum was in the flight deck and making assumptions and stupid comments, makes you sound, well, stupid and arrogant as well. But this is aviation and there is no shortage of big egos. In my mind those guys did what they were trained to do, they didn't like it they went around. They landed the airplane safely.

I joined Avcanada in 2002 (different user name) and got much insight and valuable advice on how to navigate this messed up industry and as a 22 year old kid it was priceless, I even landed a job because of this site, and I am forever grateful for that. Over the years it seems it just turns into huge pissing contests, and whose dick is bigger. Guys bashing companies, pay, conditions, equipment, and always of course decisions guys made that end up in say 3 go-arounds, or a runway over run on a 10000 foot runway. Yet no one was there, but its so easy to judge sitting in your living room in your underwear posting behind a username. No one actually wants to take the lesson out of these incidents and discuss how it can be prevented, its always pointing fingers and saying "well that would never happen to me, I am smarter than that guy".

Well I could go on and on, but I think I've rambled on long enough. But the bottom line is and its sad to say but this forum is a clear example on why the college of pilots will never ever work (@#$! even that thread went sideways), sad state of affairs this industry, I fear it will never get any better, these threads show that every day.

Good luck everyone.

Rant over.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Pilot wages will be determined by supply and demand and at what level pilots are willing to work pay wise.

At this point in time wages are dropping not rising and the bottom has not been reached yet.

Raising the standards to become an airline pilot would be a good start.

As to these three go arounds, we were not there but for sure they did not wreck their airplane.
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Gentle Giant
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Gentle Giant »

7thirtyseven; Something funny happened with the quoting - I've fixed it.

I replied to your comment because it sounds like you are saying that it's not the Westjet pilots responsibility to help keep the wages up at other companies. I'm simply pointing out that the wages at Westjet are based in part on the wages at other companies just the same as their wages are based in part on the Westjet pay scale. It's in every pilot's best interest to see wages go up at other companies.
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7thirtyseven
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by 7thirtyseven »

Na Gentle, I think WestJet pilots have a responsibility to do what they can. In practise this is difficult. And yes I do believe we hold a responsibility for Encores implications to many companies that many of us were employed at. As one gentleman said to me.... "I didnt walk the line at AirOntario to stab them in the back now. Unfourtunatly we have NEVER had a say in Encores WACON,and the whole shootin match is out of our hands now. Ultimatly it falls to market forces, supply and demand. We live in Canada. Still after all these years of hearing the supply is dwindling.... :(
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Jack Klumpus »

Report for a single go around? That's definitely not how it should be.

Every airline should have a no fault go around policy.

3 go arounds, in WMC, serviceable airplane, I agree, you got the job done safely, however, I must question the situational awareness of the crew.
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ea306
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by ea306 »

None of us were in the seats up front...
. . wrote: As to these three go arounds, we were not there but for sure they did not wreck their airplane.
If there were any lessons learned... They were there and I am sure they will of learned them. Only they can say with certainty what plotted against them and how they would do things differently another time. We have all gone through those kinds of lessons by experience...no matter how experienced one might be. Just most of the time the rest of the world does not get to know about it.
Airplane and passengers safely on the ground.
End of story.
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ea306
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by ea306 »

Jack Klumpus wrote:Report for a single go around? That's definitely not how it should be.

Every airline should have a no fault go around policy.

I agree Jack. Every Airline should have a None Punitive Go-around Policy. Making a report does not mean that it's none punitive however.

From a FOQA point of view, these reports are helpful to identify issues...be it the approach design into an airfield... Training issues... Or just plain statistic information gathering.

A few years ago I was involved with a former employer's FOQA department and as an example we found that this kind of information is helpful to identifying risks of operating into a new destination with our aircraft type. Other operators share their statistical data for the benefit of the whole industry. (Of course it is all de-identified)

A go-around is not something anyone would be questioned for with my current employer...if anything, you would get a thank you. Safety is the first concern for all of us. If it means it takes three go-arounds to get the job done safely...then so be it.

As a previous poster stated: "first one was a case of being too high on approach." The correct remedy is a go-around. The poster also stated that the subsequent go-arounds were due to tight vectoring for the approach by ATC. That can happen too. Imagine the work load on the crew... Quite possible for them to become task saturated and find themselves not ready for the next approach. Appropriate action: Go-around. That is the correct action all day long until it is done right.

That's my two pennies worth anyway.

Fly safe everyone.
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Last edited by ea306 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by altiplano »

Lateralus wrote:Monkey its not just guys ripping on Encore, its this forum in general. Take a look at the employment forum and there is new CPL holder asking guys advice on jobs, and thee first few responses are highly experienced guys who should be mentors to the kid but instead bash him for not using the search function and then some tool (AC pilot I think) insults the guy.

How many times have threads on this forum become a pissing match. The problem with pilots is lot of them think they are a lot smarter than they are, and they aren't. This inevitably leads to bashing, name calling and pettiness and I have been guilty of it to, but I am choose to refrain from these pissing matches when I can.
Interesting that while you deride posts and posters you consider insulting you can't help but get in a direct one of your own at someone who must be from the competition... Guess we're all "tools"...
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chinglish
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by chinglish »

Am I the only one that read the crew was told to pull up on the third approach due to a slow aircraft ahead? How is the third go around the crews fault?
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by anonymity »

The 10/16 conflict on the third approach was caused by the Encore going too slow (well below 160kts before Sarcee) according to ATC events. The slow Encore caused a conflict with the landing aircraft on 16, the Encore was requested to go around as they were the cause of the conflict.
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CAL
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by CAL »

I am not surprised by the 1st go around and the 2nd was just a bit unlucky....they were probably too slow because they just went around for being unstable so wanted to make sure they got it right f--k atc in this case they are safe on the ground. The 3rd go around who knows...

In any event I think its important that we are looking at wage levels versus performance and perhaps this will be a catalyst for change? Were the crew experienced on 'type'? Or at least one of the crew? I would hope this early on WJE has some captains in there that have actually flown the Q400 last thing you would want on a startup is an accident but I am sure they have thought of this long before me.

All of that said I think its a bit harsh to make any determination at this stage....we were not in the cockpit at the time and they got everyone home safe. Sometimes ifr is easier than vfr in my opinion (sometimes)....its just not something you do very often in the simulator and kinda hard to simulate like the real world.

Is 1000 feet stabilized in Day VFR kinda high? I can see it for a 737 but a dash8? especially on 16 thats a long runway.
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Valhalla
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Valhalla »

I'd like to submit that they were up to something completely different. Perhaps this year's AvCanada award for nicest penis shaped ATC plot should go to the crew of WJE3247?

Image
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loopa
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by loopa »

No one actually wants to take the lesson out of these incidents and discuss how it can be prevented, its always pointing fingers and saying "well that would never happen to me, I am smarter than that guy".
Invulnerability at its best... 8)
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Howitzer »

I would hope the crew is in fact not having a chat with their CP. They went around twice because it obviously wasn't stable. The third time was ATC initiated. You clowns on this board are either so old you've forgotten what it's like to be new and in line Indoc or so young you've just got your fighter pilot wings from Mount Royal and think you could sling it around the sky better. Having the CP talk to them will only ensure that they drive it on no matter what so they don't get yelled at.

This board has a lot of growing up to do. I don't often post and I'm so close to pulling the pin on this place it's ridiculous.
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by RussD »

Howitzer wrote:Having the CP talk to them will only ensure that they drive it on no matter what so they don't get yelled at.

This board has a lot of growing up to do. I don't often post and I'm so close to pulling the pin on this place it's ridiculous.
If having the CP talk to the crew would result motivating the crew to be less safe so they "don't get yelled at" then both WestJet and their surrogate Encore are due for a through audit by the regulator. Seriously what are you? a 10 year old :lol:
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monkey
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by monkey »

Lateralus I agree with what your saying, have you joined the college of pilots? I think they could potentially be a large stabilizing force in the industry, if we all belonged to the college of pilots rather than identifying with a specific carrier it might become more inclusive. They might also be able to better regulate wages and working conditions in the industry and stop us from being used against each other.

Truth be told I would love to have joined encore. Its very neat being part of a start-up and getting through the initial hiccups and challenges. I had been following Dave's postings on here for the 9 months prior to the start-up but when the terms came out there was no way I could make that work for my family. Too bad because I think I had some descent experience / background to bring to the table. I don't know who they ended up getting to accept those terms for Captain and FO but things like that don't give me a lot of confidence I want to be a pax.

Hopefully encore has a no fault go around policy but that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least have a conversation with the CP or someone in training and standards about what happened prior to the go arounds and how to prevent it from happening again.
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Vmeup
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Vmeup »

"I'd like to submit that they were up to something completely different. Perhaps this year's AvCanada award for nicest penis shaped ATC plot should go to the crew of WJE3247?"

Keen post Vallhalla.... Keen post indeed.

+1
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Impact
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by Impact »

anonymity wrote:You get what you pay for!
Interesting logic. The recent UPS crash in Alabama, flown by some of the highest salaried pilots in the world proves that you're either trolling, or in need of some edjumacatin.

Nice try son. :wink:
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Re: Must be a record...3 go-arounds for one flight.

Post by anonymity »

Impact, you're seriously comparing a crash from unknown causes to 3 go arounds from poor planning.
If it turns out, the UPS crew should have gone around and that is the cause, I'll retract my comment and praise this super duper Encore crew for recognizing they were still back at an enroute fix instead of on a VFR approach.
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