WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

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Airbrake
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WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by Airbrake »

Hey RealityChex, any comment as to the role of PACT in trying to keep certification out?
In FlightPath Clive states that's what it's for. Any history lesson you'd like to comment to?

http://calgaryherald.com/business/local ... -practices

A hearing set to begin on Tuesday in Calgary will hear allegations made by a group of WestJet pilots who are accusing the airline of unfair labour practices.

The complaint — filed with the Canada Industrial Relations Board last February — was made by the WestJet Professional Pilots Association (WPPA). Not to be confused with the WestJet Pilots Association, the non-unionized employee group that negotiates on behalf of the airline’s 1,250 pilots, the WPPA is an in-house group of pilots who have been pushing for unionization at WestJet.

In its complaint, the WPPA named both the airline and the WestJet Pilots Association as respondents, accusing them of violating the Canada Labour Code during the ongoing unionization drive. Details of the allegations in this case are not yet public, but typical “unfair labour practices” complaints involve accusations that an employer has interfered somehow with its employees’ right to form a union.

A spokesperson for the airline declined to comment Monday.

Ian Holloway, dean of law at the University of Calgary, said filing an unfair labour practice complaint is not something that is done lightly. But he said it’s not uncommon, either, particularly in the airline industry, which has a history of rancorous labour relations. (The Canada Industrial Relations Board has been involved on numerous occasions, for example, with disputes between Air Canada and its various employee groups.)

Still, Holloway said he is surprised to see an issue like this crop up at WestJet, which has long prided itself on its positive workplace culture.

“WestJet was meant to be a new kind of airline — ‘we’re all owners’ and that kind of thing. I guess it shows that the industry culture has pervaded even a new type of airline,” Holloway said. “This is fascinating, because we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees.”

As a quasi-judicial body drafted with administering and interpreting the country’s Labour Code, the Canada Industrial Relations Board will typically first appoint a mediator to see if the two sides can resolve their dispute. The fact that in this case a formal hearing is going ahead indicates that mediation was not successful, Holloway said.

“I can say that in the airline industry, the track record for settling these things in advance is not good,” he said.

The WestJet hearing is scheduled to take place from Tuesday to Thursday this week, with continuance dates set aside for April. Decisions of the Canada Industrial Relations Board are public and posted on the board’s website within 90 days.

Though the WPPA unionization drive continues, WestJet scored a coup on the labour relations front in December when it announced the signing of a new four-year pilots’ agreement. The airline’s pilots had been without a contract since April 30, 2013, and had soundly rejected one tentative agreement endorsed by management and the non-unionized employee group. The contract signed in December reportedly included enhancements to scheduling in addition to salary increases.
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Mach1
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by Mach1 »

Airbrake wrote:
Ian Holloway, dean of law at the University of Calgary

Still, Holloway said he is surprised to see an issue like this crop up at WestJet, which has long prided itself on its positive workplace culture.

“WestJet was meant to be a new kind of airline — ‘we’re all owners’ and that kind of thing. I guess it shows that the industry culture has pervaded even a new type of airline,” Holloway said. “This is fascinating, because we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees.”
I find it interesting that Ian Holloway, dean of law at the University of Calgary, places all of the blame for this situation at the feet of the employees. That is quite the conclusion to come to when he appears to not work at the company himself. Does he seriously believe management has played no roll in the rise of a union drive in this company? Really? No one?

It has been said that every company gets the union it deserves. Perhaps the workplace culture has changed from the top down and not from the bottom up. Perhaps share price has become more important than culture, and that change has rippled throughout the company. I think Mr. Holloway should educate himself before issuing his opinion as though it were fact.
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True North
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by True North »

Mach1 wrote:
Airbrake wrote:
Ian Holloway, dean of law at the University of Calgary

Still, Holloway said he is surprised to see an issue like this crop up at WestJet, which has long prided itself on its positive workplace culture.

“WestJet was meant to be a new kind of airline — ‘we’re all owners’ and that kind of thing. I guess it shows that the industry culture has pervaded even a new type of airline,” Holloway said. “This is fascinating, because we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees.”
I find it interesting that Ian Holloway, dean of law at the University of Calgary, places all of the blame for this situation at the feet of the employees. That is quite the conclusion to come to when he appears to not work at the company himself. Does he seriously believe management has played no roll in the rise of a union drive in this company? Really? No one?

It has been said that every company gets the union it deserves. Perhaps the workplace culture has changed from the top down and not from the bottom up. Perhaps share price has become more important than culture, and that change has rippled throughout the company. I think Mr. Holloway should educate himself before issuing his opinion as though it were fact.
Where does he say it's the employee's fault? He said "he is surprised to see an issue like this crop up at WestJet, which has long prided itself on its positive workplace culture" and "This is fascinating, because we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees."

I don't see him placing blame anywhere, just making an observation. Projecting your own feelings maybe?
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by URC »

we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees.
Same employees. New senior management. Do the math.
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RustyDeuce
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by RustyDeuce »

WestJet has changed a lot over the years. I'm not saying it's all rainbows and unicorns but these self serving union drives by FA's and pilots is going to push WJ further away from what it was and closer to the stereotypical dysfunctional airline. Sad.
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True North
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by True North »

URC wrote:
we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees.
Same employees. New senior management. Do the math.
You mean the 10,000 employees that weren't there at the inception?

My point is, placing blame at the feet of management is just as idiotic as placing it at the feet of the employees. These things are never as simple as that. Everyone gets to share the blame.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by aerobod »

True North wrote:
URC wrote:
we’re starting to see WestJet and its employees behaving like Air Canada and its employees.
Same employees. New senior management. Do the math.
You mean the 10,000 employees that weren't there at the inception?

My point is, placing blame at the feet of management is just as idiotic as placing it at the feet of the employees. These things are never as simple as that. Everyone gets to share the blame.
Just to give an idea of employee evolution, from inception over 20,000 employees have ever worked for WestJet, just over 10,000 of those are currently employed. From 1996 to 2006 (10 year period) saw the first 10,000, 2006 to 2014 (8 year period) saw the second 10,000.
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TheStig
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by TheStig »

True North wrote:Everyone gets to share the blame.
Why even use the term 'blame'? Maybe I'm just insulted by the way Air Canada employees are referenced, but why is unionization a failure?

The shift towards Union representation could just part of the evolution from a little mom and pop airline to a national carrier. In the last couple of years WJ has opened bases across the country, started a Tier 2 operation and launched overseas service. That complexity maybe requires a union to ensure everyone is fairly represented?

Like I mentioned, I'm not with WJ, but should they decide they need representation beyond what the WJPA can offer I don't really see how it's the end of the world. It's often said that every company gets the union it deserves, and I just can't see either the management or employee groups shifting too far from their interest based positions.
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Mach1
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by Mach1 »

True North,

My issue is not with the employees of WJ, nor is it with the management of WJ (and I can't believe I am having to clarify this but, here goes), my issue is with this one person (or, I am willing to believe he has been misquoted or taken out of context by the paper, in which case, my issue is with this paper) laying the blame for discontent on one and only one side in the press and presenting the statement as though it were fact rather than opinion.

To quote you:
Everyone gets to share the blame.
And that was my point.

While there may be a discussion to be had on who started the current discontent of the employee group, it would be circular at best and derogatory at worst... and really it's a chicken and egg argument. It doesn't matter who started it, but both sides carry responsibility for the current state of affairs. However, it is the executives job to lead, whether that is leading the employee group down a path where the employees decide they need a union or they decide that they do not need a union.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by KAG »

It use to be the company takes care of the employees, we take care of the guests, they take care of the company. Now we're focusing to much on the all mighty $$$. Which in itself is not bad considering if the mother ship is healthy then I'm employed.
But with the bases (and how it was handled), encore, and the failed TA, among other smaller things, some feel it's time to change how we deal with an ever changing wall street style management. I, like a lot of my peers are on the fence, but with each mishandled change I'm running out of reasons not to sign a card. We'll see how they implement the new TA, and the changes going forward.
That said, this is a great gig and id hate to see it ruined (for any reason).
Time will tell.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Westjet was modelled on Southwest Airlines. Southwest has consistently been the most profitable US airline as measured by ROI, has the highest paid narrow body mainline pilots in the US and all of its non management employees are represented by a union.

At Southwest success came from a competent, engaged , stable management team who think long term and successfully execute the plan. This combined with a pragmatic and realistic union MEC has made Southwest the best run airline in the US.

I see no reason why a similar model won't work at Westjet.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by BE20 Driver »

In my opinion, the system we have is not producing the results I'd like to see. If we keep doing the same things, we can expect the same type of results. Maybe it is time we try something different.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by aerobod »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Westjet was modelled on Southwest Airlines. Southwest has consistently been the most profitable US airline as measured by ROI, has the highest paid narrow body mainline pilots in the US and all of its non management employees are represented by a union.

At Southwest success came from a competent, engaged , stable management team who think long term and successfully execute the plan. This combined with a pragmatic and realistic union MEC has made Southwest the best run airline in the US.

I see no reason why a similar model won't work at Westjet.
Southwest's margins have been falling and cost advantage decreasing for a few years now, labour relations are also faltering:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... turbulence
http://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest-a ... 1416501262
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Aerobod

It is true that Southwest have had some recent bumps in the road but compared to the toxic legacy of employee carnage we have seen over the last 10 years at the legacy carriers, they still have an enviable record.

In any case this thread is about the potential of Westjet going Union. I stand by my contention this does not automatically constitute a retrograde step for Westjet
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by aerobod »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Aerobod

It is true that Southwest have had some recent bumps in the road but compared to the toxic legacy of employee carnage we have seen over the last 10 years at the legacy carriers, they still have an enviable record.

In any case this thread is about the potential of Westjet going Union. I stand by my contention this does not automatically constitute a retrograde step for Westjet
I don't think introducing an intermediary such as a union necessarily provides any benefits, either. In Southwests' case there may need to be many concessions in any future TA for the company to remain viable compared with the much more aggressive competition they now face, this will have to happen regardlous of the union.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by RustyDeuce »

KAG wrote:It use to be the company takes care of the employees, we take care of the guests, they take care of the company. Now we're focusing to much on the all mighty $$$. Which in itself is not bad considering if the mother ship is healthy then I'm employed.
But with the bases (and how it was handled), encore, and the failed TA, among other smaller things, some feel it's time to change how we deal with an ever changing wall street style management. I, like a lot of my peers are on the fence, but with each mishandled change I'm running out of reasons not to sign a card. We'll see how they implement the new TA, and the changes going forward.
That said, this is a great gig and id hate to see it ruined (for any reason).
Time will tell.
There were a lot of things handled poorly in the last 18 months. They should have been handled better and there are heads that should have rolled that haven't. That needs to change. I believe in what needs to happen and how we need to get there. The militants, the uninformed, and the immature need to get with the program or move on. We'll all be better for it.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by #37 »

RustyDeuce wrote:
KAG wrote:It use to be the company takes care of the employees, we take care of the guests, they take care of the company. Now we're focusing to much on the all mighty $$$. Which in itself is not bad considering if the mother ship is healthy then I'm employed.
But with the bases (and how it was handled), encore, and the failed TA, among other smaller things, some feel it's time to change how we deal with an ever changing wall street style management. I, like a lot of my peers are on the fence, but with each mishandled change I'm running out of reasons not to sign a card. We'll see how they implement the new TA, and the changes going forward.
That said, this is a great gig and id hate to see it ruined (for any reason).
Time will tell.
There were a lot of things handled poorly in the last 18 months. They should have been handled better and there are heads that should have rolled that haven't. That needs to change. I believe in what needs to happen and how we need to get there. The militants, the uninformed, and the immature need to get with the program or move on. We'll all be better for it.
So I'm militant, uninformed AND immature, please let me know what it is you believe needs to happen and how we'll get there (wherever "there" is).
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by RustyDeuce »

First things first, put whatever happened in the past behind you. I strongly believe that mistakes were made and lessons were learned for how to manage change. The Exec's get that certain employee groups are pissed off (pilots and FAs) - they aren't going to keep poking the bear. Pilots are pissed about Encore. Whatever. Get over that too. Things will improve over time. FA's are pissed about everything. They need to get over that too. They are the most spoiled group in WS and they have no f'in clue how good they have it.

I fear what our ever rising cost structure will do over time. We're going to be eating some humble pie in the coming years as our direct competitor is much more efficient and definitely more focused. New entrants are going to do what we did to Canadian and AC back in 96. We are going to be in a world of hurt and looking for unrealistic money and benefits today won't mean shit tomorrow when we're losing money.

We need to cut costs. We need to work better and more efficiently. We need to focus on what we do. Ya that sounds like the kool aid talking but there are far too many distractions that are doing nothing but put us 2 steps backwards.

Everyone has their own agenda and everyone is entitled to that. I fear agendas that are selfish and agendas that are shortsighted.
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Re: WJ Pilot CIRB complaint

Post by #37 »

RustyDeuce wrote:First things first, put whatever happened in the past behind you. I strongly believe that mistakes were made and lessons were learned for how to manage change. The Exec's get that certain employee groups are pissed off (pilots and FAs) - they aren't going to keep poking the bear. Pilots are pissed about Encore. Whatever. Get over that too. Things will improve over time. FA's are pissed about everything. They need to get over that too. They are the most spoiled group in WS and they have no f'in clue how good they have it.

I fear what our ever rising cost structure will do over time. We're going to be eating some humble pie in the coming years as our direct competitor is much more efficient and definitely more focused. New entrants are going to do what we did to Canadian and AC back in 96. We are going to be in a world of hurt and looking for unrealistic money and benefits today won't mean shit tomorrow when we're losing money.

We need to cut costs. We need to work better and more efficiently. We need to focus on what we do. Ya that sounds like the kool aid talking but there are far too many distractions that are doing nothing but put us 2 steps backwards.

Everyone has their own agenda and everyone is entitled to that. I fear agendas that are selfish and agendas that are shortsighted.
The only people at WestJet that are worried about "change management" and whether it was done well or not are management types. The employees I know that drink the kool-aid have issues with whether the changes actually have a long term benefit or if they were done for a short term blip. In other words the changes are the mistakes, not the management of them. Its funny because WestJet is known for a highly adaptable, business oriented, progressive workforce. If THEY are balking, perhaps it is worth noting, not steamrolling. If a hardworking Kool aide drinking proud group like "westjetters" begin to rebel across a broad spectrum... I would be listening not berating.
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