WJ vs. AC......performance

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dukepoint
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WJ vs. AC......performance

#1 Post by dukepoint » Sat May 23, 2015 1:33 pm

I'm hearing rumblings that Air Canada outstripped Westjet in ASM increace (year over year) by double, and increaced RPM over Westjet by 3 fold. AC also very nearly matched Westjet In Return on Investment Capital (ROIC)....total revenue at AC still 3x higher. Nearly 100 Widebodies at Air Canada by the end of 2017......beating my initial prediction of 95 Widebodies by 2019. A similar number of 737 Max's with option and firm orders being about equal to WJ's entire fleet.....not including the EMJ replacement.

Don't mean to start an arguement, as these are just the facts.

I may be accused of fanning the flames a bit though;-)

Lets get a conversation going!

I personally remember Bedoe back in '03, refering to Air Canada as the "bankrupt monopoly" with billions in market cap sitting there for the taking. I wonder if he made a prediction then about the situation 12 years into the future, he'd have seen this.....or reversed roles......just sayin'.

Whats going on at "Team Teal?" BTW....... Its been real quiet. Make some noise!

DP.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#2 Post by mikeecho » Sat May 23, 2015 3:17 pm

Q1 Operating Margin

- WS - 16.91%
- AC - 3.4%

There are some good things starting to happen at AC, but when it comes to profitability, they rank the lowest of the NA majors.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#3 Post by dukepoint » Sat May 23, 2015 3:43 pm

mikeecho wrote:Q1 Operating Margin

- WS - 16.91%
- AC - 3.4%

There are some good things starting to happen at AC, but when it comes to profitability, they rank the lowest of the NA majors.
Where did you get that data??? Source???? Quoting percentages is nice, and looks good, but when your comparing it to an organization that is at least three times larger....

If you are talking about EBITAR margin Q1 2015, you're completely wrong by a factor of four.

Refute the data I've given.

Westjet is NOT considered a "Major Carrier" BTW. They're more like a "National" carrier.

Nice to see some activity on this thread....I like kicking hornet nests. :-)

DP.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#4 Post by leftoftrack » Sun May 24, 2015 6:20 am

www.sedar.com this might be one of the worst troll posts I've ever seen
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#5 Post by dukepoint » Sun May 24, 2015 6:57 am

Is that all you got leftoftrack? I'm trying to kick a little life into dullsville. Where's that Westjet fighting spirit???

Let's start a conversation. I posted nothing but facts.....if you have other info, post it for all to see. One of us will be wrong, and if it's me, I'll apologize and recheck my sources..... for the third time.

Clive was pretty arrogant in his prediction of how much of the Canadian market share was his for the taking when he started the whole operation..........now that we're coming up hard on 20 years, how did those predictions pan out? I mean, we always knew that there would be two large carriers in Canada.....is Westjets size and ability to create revenue really a special anomaly in the aviation world like he said it was, or are they just that "second" Canadian carrier. Thoughts???

The facts show that WJ is only 1/3 Air Canada's size, both in revenue generated, and ASM capacity. Was this Clive's vision 20 years in? If not, then there may have been a boatload of opportunity lost during the demise of Canadi<n and the bankruptcy exit of AC between 1999 and 2005.

BTW......Not a lot have the interest or savvy to wade through SEDAR reports.

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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#6 Post by Old fella » Sun May 24, 2015 8:20 am

Beats the shit out of this old fool trying to figure the point of this topic, I mean both airlines provide top notch A+ service to their customers as has been my experience. Yes no doubt, some have preferences on who they fly with for a variety of reasons but that doesn't suggest very much in my view as that is the way it has always been. Blast away!!
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#7 Post by dukepoint » Sun May 24, 2015 2:19 pm

Im not trolling, or trying to start a fight, only an engaging conversation.

My issue is that I have more than a boatload of Westjet stock, but I work for Big Red.

I bought that stock on big promises Clive made more than a decade ago at a shareholder meeting just before AC went into CCAA........I'm dissappointed so far.

Its a strange paradox, but I'll live with it.

I want to hear what Westjetters have to say about AC's performance, and growth over the last few years.......and perhaps get a glimpse of the "new psychy" that lives in the house on Barlow Trail.

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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#8 Post by Bede » Tue May 26, 2015 6:44 am

I hate feeding the trolls, but the troll keeps begging for food.

What do I think about AC's performace. I am happy. I am happy that my fellow pilots do not need to worry about being furloughed, will have their pensions in tact, and will not need to taste the bitterness of CCAA.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#9 Post by bmc » Tue May 26, 2015 10:51 am

Increasing ASM's simply means they added capacity. While it's important to list ASM and RPM measure for load factor comparison.

Increasing RPM's is not that hard to do. It's easy to fill an airplane. Price it right and people will fly. Making good money is the challenge.

Asking how their yield did YOY will also be misleading. Long haul yield is always lower than short haul yield. If the added capacity is mostly long haul, expect an overall lower yield when blended with the network.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#10 Post by dukepoint » Wed May 27, 2015 8:48 am

Bede wrote:I hate feeding the trolls, but the troll keeps begging for food.

What do I think about AC's performace. I am happy. I am happy that my fellow pilots do not need to worry about being furloughed, will have their pensions in tact, and will not need to taste the bitterness of CCAA.
Come on Bede....you call me a troll.....I've been around longer than that and you know it.

I may be a bit "contraversial", but troll is a bit much, no? Trolls hit then leave.....why will no one engage me?

Why not start a conversation? If you don't like reality then say so, but to resort to name calling is a little childish.

The tables are turning a bit. We've been hearing Westjetters rage for nearly two decades about how they are "a force to be reckoned with", and "unstoppable", and heard many a time how the "culture" was unique, and that AC was a twisted, unionized "uncaring" monster that had to be stopped for the sake of all travelling Canadians.

Where are our respective companies at now???

DP.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#11 Post by dukepoint » Wed May 27, 2015 8:51 am

bmc wrote:Increasing ASM's simply means they added capacity. While it's important to list ASM and RPM measure for load factor comparison.

Increasing RPM's is not that hard to do. It's easy to fill an airplane. Price it right and people will fly. Making good money is the challenge.

Asking how their yield did YOY will also be misleading. Long haul yield is always lower than short haul yield. If the added capacity is mostly long haul, expect an overall lower yield when blended with the network.

Yes bmc, I have to agree.

Apples to Oranges comparisons might "muddy the waters" significantly.

Thank you for jumping in.

DP

FWIW....Im not claiming everything is all "sunshine and candy floss" at AC, for the pilots especially. We've seen a tremendous erosion of our wages and serious divisions within the group with the introduction of Rouge and a DC pension. At least you guys still have your dignity intact in that regard.......we don't.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#12 Post by Bede » Wed May 27, 2015 11:01 am

Why won't anyone engage you? Because no one cares. I just got a $10,000 profit share (CRA took half). Some guys got $20,000. AC is doing well. It's good times- until oil goes up. Or down. Or something crazy happens.

Right now my concern is with the regional guys and the guys getting laid off.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#13 Post by Johnny#5 » Wed May 27, 2015 12:29 pm

Are WJ pilots officially unionized yet?
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#14 Post by privateer » Wed May 27, 2015 1:22 pm

I was impressed to see AC stock surge today on the news that they were following WJ and removing the middle seat on their Rouge planes (I assume). The two companies are not that same though. It would be like comparing Delta or United, to Alaska or Southwest.

I am curious as to why AC thinks the MAX 900 is going to work for them and WJ didn't order any. I believe brake energy limits were the issue with WJ not ordering them.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#15 Post by whiteguy » Wed May 27, 2015 3:22 pm

privateer wrote:I was impressed to see AC stock surge today on the news that they were following WJ and removing the middle seat on their Rouge planes (I assume). The two companies are not that same though. It would be like comparing Delta or United, to Alaska or Southwest.

I am curious as to why AC thinks the MAX 900 is going to work for them and WJ didn't order any. I believe brake energy limits were the issue with WJ not ordering them.
AC isn't really doing the same as WJ with the seats up front. Rouge is reconfiguring the seats and going from 3x3 to 2x2. WJ is leaving the seats 3x3 and then blocking the middle seat in Plus.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#16 Post by altiplano » Wed May 27, 2015 10:47 pm

Rouge was blocking the middle seat on the 319 from day 1, what WS is now moving to as rouge goes to a proper J seat.

I think the stock surge was on the pension opt out and share buyback announcement.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#17 Post by bandaid » Thu May 28, 2015 8:31 am

dukepoint wrote:I'm hearing rumblings that Air Canada outstripped Westjet in ASM increace (year over year) by double, and increaced RPM over Westjet by 3 fold. AC also very nearly matched Westjet In Return on Investment Capital (ROIC)....total revenue at AC still 3x higher. Nearly 100 Widebodies at Air Canada by the end of 2017......beating my initial prediction of 95 Widebodies by 2019. A similar number of 737 Max's with option and firm orders being about equal to WJ's entire fleet.....not including the EMJ replacement.

Don't mean to start an arguement, as these are just the facts.

I may be accused of fanning the flames a bit though;-)

Lets get a conversation going!

I personally remember Bedoe back in '03, refering to Air Canada as the "bankrupt monopoly" with billions in market cap sitting there for the taking. I wonder if he made a prediction then about the situation 12 years into the future, he'd have seen this.....or reversed roles......just sayin'.

Whats going on at "Team Teal?" BTW....... Its been real quiet. Make some noise!

DP.
Not too sure what point you are trying to make. Both companies are doing well right now and that is good for the industry, good for the staff and good for the customers.
I think this thread is just your way of trying to rile up the Westjet pilots and employees. I have a question for you, of the two carriers which one has received government money to remain solvent?
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#18 Post by The Raven » Thu May 28, 2015 8:39 am

bandaid wrote:
dukepoint wrote:I'm hearing rumblings that Air Canada outstripped Westjet in ASM increace (year over year) by double, and increaced RPM over Westjet by 3 fold. AC also very nearly matched Westjet In Return on Investment Capital (ROIC)....total revenue at AC still 3x higher. Nearly 100 Widebodies at Air Canada by the end of 2017......beating my initial prediction of 95 Widebodies by 2019. A similar number of 737 Max's with option and firm orders being about equal to WJ's entire fleet.....not including the EMJ replacement.

Don't mean to start an arguement, as these are just the facts.

I may be accused of fanning the flames a bit though;-)

Lets get a conversation going!

I personally remember Bedoe back in '03, refering to Air Canada as the "bankrupt monopoly" with billions in market cap sitting there for the taking. I wonder if he made a prediction then about the situation 12 years into the future, he'd have seen this.....or reversed roles......just sayin'.

Whats going on at "Team Teal?" BTW....... Its been real quiet. Make some noise!

DP.
Not too sure what point you are trying to make. Both companies are doing well right now and that is good for the industry, good for the staff and good for the customers.
I think this thread is just your way of trying to rile up the Westjet pilots and employees. I have a question for you, of the two carriers which one has received government money to remain solvent?
Neither.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#19 Post by bandaid » Thu May 28, 2015 9:04 am

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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#20 Post by The Raven » Thu May 28, 2015 9:34 am

Those were loans, all paid back with interest.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#21 Post by altiplano » Fri May 29, 2015 12:35 am

As a moderator in a Canadian aviation forum I would have thought you better informed on the subject, Bandaid, and maybe more 'moderate' when interjecting in a topic... Anyway keep up the good work...
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#22 Post by redbaron » Sat May 30, 2015 11:11 pm

The Raven wrote:Those were loans, all paid back with interest.
In fairness, Bandaid is at least partially right. Loans from a government given at either below market rate or when traditional lenders are unwilling still obviously benefit the recipient. Taxpayer money is either at higher than normal risk or not earning the interest it could otherwise. The government in this case believed it was for the greater good which probably was true.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#23 Post by bandaid » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:15 pm

Funny, as a moderator I have seen comments on here bemoaning my lack of knowledge in aviation and that I add very little to the discussions. Now I make an observation which, by the way, I knew was semi correct to a person whose intent is was to try and start a pissing match between WJ and AC pilots.
I realise that it was a loan and I appreciate the fact that it was in the best interest of aviation in Canada. I also appreciate the fact that the two companies are very different in the way business is conducted. I guess the better way of putting it is only one company has had to ask for financial help and got it at the expense of taxpayers at a lower interest than Johnny Q public could expect from their bankers.
It is in pilots best interests that all companies in Canada do well, the job market isn't that great right now.
I guess because I am not a pilot I should not be allowed to comment on any topic in here. Thanks Altiplano for pointing that out. Keep up those keen observations.
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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#24 Post by dukepoint » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:46 pm

I wouldn't poke you guys if I knew you couldn't take it. I mean Westjet is truly a success story, and I'm not being sarcastic. Just trying to ignite a little fire in Dullsville....... Air Canada needs a healthy competitor.

I'd call this thread a success if you can include a moderator "rolling around in the mud" with us. :D

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Re: WJ vs. AC......performance

#25 Post by URC » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:56 am

I bought that stock on big promises Clive made more than a decade ago at a shareholder meeting just before AC went into CCAA........I'm dissappointed so far.
Since 2001 ...

WestJet has increased ASM's by 854%
Had a net income of $1.73 Billion

WTF were you expecting ?

Did you buy Air Canada stock when it IPO's at $20.00 ? How's that been working for you ?
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