WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

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WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#1 Post by Diadem » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:41 am

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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#2 Post by Johnny#5 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:02 pm

Bad link.....but it could be just me and my computer :?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#3 Post by NAT2 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:06 pm

The link works for me.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#4 Post by Diadem » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:25 pm

Sorry, I posted from my phone without thinking about it being a mobile site. Hopefully this works better: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/w ... -1.3105000
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#5 Post by acidgambit » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:30 am

Man, I don't know. I came from the Air Canada world and all I see is the union driving the company to the ground. There are pros and cons having the union. It all depends on what the union is fighting for i guess. My experience is that once the union is in.......good luck getting rid of the people that slack off at work all the time. When I was working at Air Canada....the base I was working at had about 300+ maintenance engineers and about 1/3 of those people were dead weight. Air Canada try to fire some of the guys, but the union always fought to get their jobs back. Probation system don't work anymore. Union dues all the time and some of the guys played the union card hardcore.....it drove the efficiency level so low.

I remember getting written up for helping to wash the airplane cause I wasn't a groomer...and also got written up for taking an electrical plug off of a component cause I wasn't an avionics technician. It was ridiculous.

I had bad experience with the union, so this is my opinion and my point of view.

Just be careful what you wish for.

Oh and one more thing.........lets say if the flight attendant union or pilot union don't get what they want and decide to go on strike, you can bet that the federal government is going to step in and force you back to work. Don't believe me???? Watch what happened at Air Canada and also to the teachers' union. The federal government will give you the same old reason for forcing people back to work. "It has a negative impact on the Canadian economy"
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#6 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:47 am

Guess the "key" word on the FA public statement is "legally enforceable". Which is true because WJ Senior Executive can change any wording in any so called agreement any time under any circumstances for whatever reasoning they wish to push forward simply because they are not bound by it.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#7 Post by Smitty » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:56 am

Signed agreements (which these are) are enforceable under common law. They can try to change the wording, but they can be taken to court over it.

Or you can leave your fate to the hands of the quasi-judicial CIRB which is influenced by the political will of the day.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#8 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:25 am

And how long would that(courts) take given the various litigation strategies and appeal processes. Political "will", that has a best before date as well under the term "ideology" and by current appearances this is gonna happen come this fall.

By all accounts there appears to be some cracks in the WJ foundation. Hopefully it gets more than just a patch job as WJ is a very good airline.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#9 Post by Bede » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:01 am

Old fella wrote:Guess the "key" word on the FA public statement is "legally enforceable". Which is true because WJ Senior Executive can change any wording in any so called agreement any time under any circumstances for whatever reasoning they wish to push forward simply because they are not bound by it.
No they can't. That's called constructive dismissal. Also, WJ has never so much as tried to do this before.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#10 Post by Troubleshot » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:28 am

Bede wrote:
Old fella wrote:Guess the "key" word on the FA public statement is "legally enforceable". Which is true because WJ Senior Executive can change any wording in any so called agreement any time under any circumstances for whatever reasoning they wish to push forward simply because they are not bound by it.
No they can't. That's called constructive dismissal. Also, WJ has never so much as tried to do this before.
Ha, learned something new there thanks!

But under that definition wouldn't WestJet just have to give reasonable notice before they make the changes? Also, the term "substantial changes" pops up a lot in the definition I read...so would a reduction of say 7% in salary considered substantial in court? I have no idea but it is interesting.

Thanks,

TS
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#11 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:30 am

Bede wrote:
Old fella wrote:Guess the "key" word on the FA public statement is "legally enforceable". Which is true because WJ Senior Executive can change any wording in any so called agreement any time under any circumstances for whatever reasoning they wish to push forward simply because they are not bound by it.
No they can't. That's called constructive dismissal. Also, WJ has never so much as tried to do this before.

So this isn't correct then. Just asking!!!


WestJet can change the terms at any time, because these guidelines are not legally enforceable to the company- WPFAA statement
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#12 Post by Smitty » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:05 pm

As far as I know, that statement is incorrect. In such a scenario WestJet would be facing a court challenge under breach of contract. Both certified and non union groups have recourse, it's just administered by different regulatory bodies. One judicial, one quasi judicial.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#13 Post by Red1 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:20 pm

Its a bit of fear mongering. Smitty's right, both the flight attendants and the pilots agreements are covered under Civil law.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#14 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:26 pm

edit and deleted
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Last edited by Old fella on Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#15 Post by Old fella » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:26 pm

A "certified bargaining agent" such as ALPA who represents many airline pilots at various airlines does have an asset in that they can "legally withdrew their services" after all avenues are exhausted in the collective bargaining process. That’s why you will see/hear “pilots of ABC airlines represented by ALPA are in a legal strike position effective Sunday June 10th at midnight local”. I don’t think you WJ folks can do this without some serious repercussions from your senior levels of management aka fired!!
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#16 Post by JSYK » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:06 pm

Red1 wrote:Its a bit of fear mongering. Smitty's right, both the flight attendants and the pilots agreements are covered under Civil law.
This is not the case the for the pilot or FA "Agreements" at WestJet.
WestJet itself acknowledges this is their response to the WPPA Complaint currently before the CIRB. A public tribunal.

WestJet states that employees are only employed on a individual basis not a collective one. They do not recognize PACT - WJPA or FAAB as an agent, legally, for the pilots or FAs. They are in fact, a department(business unit) within the corporation.

Individual contracts are negotiated by individuals. Collective Agreements are negotiated by authorized agents acting on an aligned-interest group's behalf. PACT or any of its subgroup's such as FAAB or WJPA are, according to WestJet even, not the bargaining agent for any employees at WestJet. Each pilot or FA does not does not have to sign off on these "agreements". It is not an individual employment contract. The original offer of employment (or re-offer when upgraded to Captain) are the technical contract each employee is on.

The fact these "agreements" are "voted" on by the respective group does not give those documents any legal status. Additionally, the voting process is 100% company operated and controlled anyways.

WestJet says in its affidavits to the CIRB that PACT/WJPA/FAAB are not a union or voluntary recognized and that these "agreements" do not constitute a legally enforceable (on them) collective agreement under Labour law.

WestJet consistently says to the investment community that unionization is a business risk because it would require them to bargain in good faith. That means now, without legitimate representation, they cannot be compelled to honour what has been "negotiated".
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#17 Post by JSYK » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:17 pm

Bede wrote:
Old fella wrote:Guess the "key" word on the FA public statement is "legally enforceable". Which is true because WJ Senior Executive can change any wording in any so called agreement any time under any circumstances for whatever reasoning they wish to push forward simply because they are not bound by it.
No they can't. That's called constructive dismissal. Also, WJ has never so much as tried to do this before.
Constructive dismissal is only relevant to individuals or small groups who are singled out for a reduction in previously agreed working conditions, pay or status(to get the person(s) to quit). It is highly exceptional to be successful with Constructive dismissal if the individual(s) do not quit. Constructive dismissal provisions under section III of the Code have no legal capacity to compel an employer to re-instate or retain an employee. Constructive dismissal awards are usually just some amount of money to compensate for damages. Then what?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#18 Post by mel gibson » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:23 pm

It is my opinion and after watching and observing the WPPA presentations
is the union would be there to protect the pilots for things such as mergers
and other things associated with labour law etc. Mr. Murray is one of the
minority pilots making a great wage in the Westjet pryamid scheme.
Unions are required to ensure that employee's rights are protected and that
one should not fear for their job if they have a different opinion. Safety would be
enhanced as there would be less pressure to " get the job done," or risk
facing repercussions as a new Captain or First Officer close to upgrade.
Westjet was a company I admired before the current and previous CEO showed
up. Do not give in to GS fear mongering. He is just afraid of his bonus being
cut. Smart people are behind the WPPA and will serve the Westjet pilot's well.

Ps. I work for the other major airline in Canada and a close relationship
between the other unions in Canada is a must to improve working conditions for
all professional pilots.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#19 Post by RustyDeuce » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:42 pm

Once upon a time the pilots at WestJet were smart people. They certainly haven't lost their influence. The FA's are following their lead.

The wall has been built regardless of the outcome. Us vs them.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#20 Post by aerobod » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:15 pm

mel gibson wrote: Westjet was a company I admired before the current and previous CEO showed
up. Do not give in to GS fear mongering. He is just afraid of his bonus being
cut. Smart people are behind the WPPA and will serve the Westjet pilot's well.

Ps. I work for the other major airline in Canada and a close relationship
between the other unions in Canada is a must to improve working conditions for
all professional pilots.
If you worked for WestJet, you would have seen and heard Clive's communications. They are fully aligned with Gregg's communications. Clive, as the principal founder, is still Chairman of the Board and very informed on day-to-day matters at WestJet.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#21 Post by loopa » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:52 pm

I understand this may be on the bottom of the list of things to worry about, but out of curiosity... has there been any communication with respect to the impact of WPPA on Encore? After speaking with some of the guys that fly at Encore, they are worried that incentives like one list and flow may get disintegrated if the union takes over. For example, why would a 737 F/O vote in favour of flow/one list if Encore driver #200 is going to cause a big delay in his/her upgrade, base selections, and all the nice things that come with seniority? I guess the worry seems to promote that the divided company can really seal the faith of Encore employees. Is it also true that since Encore is it's own company (with WJ's backing), that if a Union does present itself at WJ, it couldn't legally represent Encore? I'm unfamiliar with this union ordeal so apologies in advance if these seem like silly questions.

That being said, it seems like WJ pilots have tried to always take care of themselves and the guys coming in behind them.

I have been trying to follow along as much as I can, but what are the main reasons people feel like a union is a necessity at WJ? It's hard to filter out what has actually pissed people off versus people who just complain for the purpose of adding fuel to the fire. On the outside it seems like the company has become extremely divided. It almost seems like if you form a union, you'll piss people off, and if you don't you will piss people off. I hope you guys can find a win-win situation that satisfies the majority.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#22 Post by KAG » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:33 am

I'm a new cpt at WJ and don't live in fear of speaking my mind. I've spoken up/ against ideas during town halls over the years and never had any backlash. Sure things have changed, but that is the way of things. It's how we handle this change that matters.
Do we need a union, I don't know. I'm torn. I've heard all the arguments for and against, and I can honestly say I don't know. I feel our wjpa are doing exactly what they set out to do, and The company is listening to them. Change is happening. But is it too little too late for 50%+1. For me I'm content to sit and watch. I guess we'll see shortly. I hope we make the right decision.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#23 Post by ninjacrumb » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:40 am

If the WestJet Pilots Association is effective then don't unionize. Even if it's marginally effective don't unionize.

Also don't expect ALPA or any other union make a real difference compared to your Association. All you'll see is 1.95% of your wage gone.

For the guy that made $310,000 thats $6000 per year.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#24 Post by scopiton » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:58 am

ninjacrumb wrote: All you'll see is 1.95% of your wage gone.

For the guy that made $310,000 thats $6000 per year.
please stop, I'm gonna cry.... :roll:
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#25 Post by thenoflyzone » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:32 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3109821

315,000$ seems like a lot for a 737 captain. And to think the article says the majority of WS pilots make that kind of money.

That must include a lot of O/T, and the shares program as well no? Maybe he's an instructor as well and does line checks, thus increasing his salary.

If i calculate correctly via the following link, a 12 year captain on a 737 gives you 200,000$ at minimum monthly hours, no per diems or O/T or shares. He makes 50% more than that. Sounds like a lot.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... an/westjet
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