WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#51 Post by flyingvinnie » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:40 am

True North wrote:
flyingvinnie wrote:Maybe they should have interviewed more people for that article, and not just one guy who is hammered on the WJ juice?

An interesting quote, in reply to a CBC news article:


"There are a few concerns I have being a WJ pilots wife... First and most important is safety. My husband is pushed to his limits alllll the time. Working 13 hour days and 19-21 days a month not 16. Most are unpaid due to changes of bases in the company. He has been forced to commute from accross the country rather then the WEST he was hired for. When he drives home after 17-20 hr days due to his commute I worry. Sure he could choose not to further his carrier and stay commuting from the west and many have chosen that but is that fair? For the record the union is pilot run, not an outside representative. There are many more points like no loss of license insurance or no mental disability... I could go on...."
"Forced to commute". Hilarious. No one is ever forced to commute, it is always a choice.
Not much of a choice when you are settled in Calgary. Especially if your wife has a good job there, you have a nice home there, all you babystitting/daycare arrangements are there. Then nice ol' WJ comes along and says " if you want to keep your left seat, pack your bags and move to Toronto. Or, move three hours north, so you can afford a house."

Yup, that's the friendly WJ family attitude now.

If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#52 Post by complexintentions » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:45 am

Personal attack. Keep your comment civil or don't comment
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#53 Post by True North » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:50 am

flyingvinnie wrote:
True North wrote:
flyingvinnie wrote:Maybe they should have interviewed more people for that article, and not just one guy who is hammered on the WJ juice?

An interesting quote, in reply to a CBC news article:


"There are a few concerns I have being a WJ pilots wife... First and most important is safety. My husband is pushed to his limits alllll the time. Working 13 hour days and 19-21 days a month not 16. Most are unpaid due to changes of bases in the company. He has been forced to commute from accross the country rather then the WEST he was hired for. When he drives home after 17-20 hr days due to his commute I worry. Sure he could choose not to further his carrier and stay commuting from the west and many have chosen that but is that fair? For the record the union is pilot run, not an outside representative. There are many more points like no loss of license insurance or no mental disability... I could go on...."
"Forced to commute". Hilarious. No one is ever forced to commute, it is always a choice.
Not much of a choice when you are settled in Calgary. Especially if your wife has a good job there, you have a nice home there, all you babystitting/daycare arrangements are there. Then nice ol' WJ comes along and says " if you want to keep your left seat, pack your bags and move to Toronto. Or, move three hours north, so you can afford a house."

Yup, that's the friendly WJ family attitude now.

If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
Cry me a river. It's aviation, it's inherently unstable. Airlines have bases and need to staff them. As a pilot, you go to the base or you don't, it's a choice and sometimes it's not easy. The airline is a business and like any other business exists to make money, not provide you a job anywhere you want to live.

And just FYI, no Union is ever going to change that. Get over it.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#54 Post by flyingvinnie » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:04 am

If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
Cry me a river. It's aviation, it's inherently unstable. Airlines have bases and need to staff them. As a pilot, you go to the base or you don't, it's a choice and sometimes it's not easy. The airline is a business and like any other business exists to make money, not provide you a job anywhere you want to live.

And just FYI, no Union is ever going to change that. Get over it."
Wow, why so defensive? You must be starting to realize that west jet is no longer what is once was, and are getting angry at that? Or, maybe you are the captain they quoted in the article, and are mad that even your fellow pilots think you sound like an as# clown? :wink:

Or, are you also drunk on the WJ juice? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#55 Post by True North » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:34 am

flyingvinnie wrote:
If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
Cry me a river. It's aviation, it's inherently unstable. Airlines have bases and need to staff them. As a pilot, you go to the base or you don't, it's a choice and sometimes it's not easy. The airline is a business and like any other business exists to make money, not provide you a job anywhere you want to live.

And just FYI, no Union is ever going to change that. Get over it."
Wow, why so defensive? You must be starting to realize that west jet is no longer what is once was, and are getting angry at that? Or, maybe you are the captain they quoted in the article, and are mad that even your fellow pilots think you sound like an as# clown? :wink:

Or, are you also drunk on the WJ juice? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Wrong on all accounts. I don't work for WestJet, never did and I don't work for anyone else for that matter. Been retired several years now, I just still have an active iinterest in the industry. It's disheartening to hear a bunch of self entitled whiners moaning about how mean big bad WestJet is because they opened up a couple of bases and now they might have to move. Suck it up princess, it's the airline business and no Union is going to rush in and save the day. Move or don't move, it's a choice. Make a descision, move on and shut the hell up already. I had to move 8 times during my 35 years in the biz. No sympathy.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#56 Post by flyingvinnie » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:59 am

True North wrote:
flyingvinnie wrote:
If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
Cry me a river. It's aviation, it's inherently unstable. Airlines have bases and need to staff them. As a pilot, you go to the base or you don't, it's a choice and sometimes it's not easy. The airline is a business and like any other business exists to make money, not provide you a job anywhere you want to live.

And just FYI, no Union is ever going to change that. Get over it."
Wow, why so defensive? You must be starting to realize that west jet is no longer what is once was, and are getting angry at that? Or, maybe you are the captain they quoted in the article, and are mad that even your fellow pilots think you sound like an as# clown? :wink:

Or, are you also drunk on the WJ juice? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Wrong on all accounts. I don't work for WestJet, never did and I don't work for anyone else for that matter. Been retired several years now, I just still have an active iinterest in the industry. It's disheartening to hear a bunch of self entitled whiners moaning about how mean big bad WestJet is because they opened up a couple of bases and now they might have to move. Suck it up princess, it's the airline business and no Union is going to rush in and save the day. Move or don't move, it's a choice. Make a descision, move on and shut the hell up already. I had to move 8 times during my 35 years in the biz. No sympathy.
Man, you sound so bitter and angry. Go outside for a walk, and try to enjoy life, at least for a minute!
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#57 Post by ZBBYLW » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:23 am

Wrong on all accounts. I don't work for WestJet, never did and I don't work for anyone else for that matter. Been retired several years now, I just still have an active iinterest in the industry. It's disheartening to hear a bunch of self entitled whiners moaning about how mean big bad WestJet is because they opened up a couple of bases and now they might have to move. Suck it up princess, it's the airline business and no Union is going to rush in and save the day. Move or don't move, it's a choice. Make a descision, move on and shut the hell up already. I had to move 8 times during my 35 years in the biz. No sympathy.
Nice! The old "I suffered so you should too" crowd. That will really help progress.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#58 Post by True North » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:30 am

ZBBYLW wrote:
Wrong on all accounts. I don't work for WestJet, never did and I don't work for anyone else for that matter. Been retired several years now, I just still have an active iinterest in the industry. It's disheartening to hear a bunch of self entitled whiners moaning about how mean big bad WestJet is because they opened up a couple of bases and now they might have to move. Suck it up princess, it's the airline business and no Union is going to rush in and save the day. Move or don't move, it's a choice. Make a descision, move on and shut the hell up already. I had to move 8 times during my 35 years in the biz. No sympathy.
Nice! The old "I suffered so you should too" crowd. That will really help progress.
Nice! The new "I deserve everything I want and screw the consequences" crowd. Starting the swirl around the drain.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#59 Post by North Shore » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:49 am

flyingvinnie wrote:
True North wrote:
flyingvinnie wrote:Maybe they should have interviewed more people for that article, and not just one guy who is hammered on the WJ juice?

An interesting quote, in reply to a CBC news article:


"There are a few concerns I have being a WJ pilots wife... First and most important is safety. My husband is pushed to his limits alllll the time. Working 13 hour days and 19-21 days a month not 16. Most are unpaid due to changes of bases in the company. He has been forced to commute from accross the country rather then the WEST he was hired for. When he drives home after 17-20 hr days due to his commute I worry. Sure he could choose not to further his carrier and stay commuting from the west and many have chosen that but is that fair? For the record the union is pilot run, not an outside representative. There are many more points like no loss of license insurance or no mental disability... I could go on...."
"Forced to commute". Hilarious. No one is ever forced to commute, it is always a choice.
Not much of a choice when you are settled in Calgary. Especially if your wife has a good job there, you have a nice home there, all you babystitting/daycare arrangements are there. Then nice ol' WJ comes along and says " if you want to keep your left seat, pack your bags and move to Toronto. Or, move three hours north, so you can afford a house."

Yup, that's the friendly WJ family attitude now.

If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
There's always a choice; there are four, in fact, here: Move, commute, downgrade, or quit. Yes, it sucks, and I'm sure that upper management would rather that it didn't disrupt their employees, but it is the nature of business that circumstances change. I suppose that we could get into a philosophical discussion about the nature of businesses: would the WJ employee group take a smaller profit share or reduced share value if the business was run somewhat inefficiently, so as to keep people on the bases that they were originally hired for? I suspect that the answer to that is no, seeing as dozens of their peers have moved in response to the company's needs.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#60 Post by kaput » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:24 pm

flyingvinnie wrote:
True North wrote:
flyingvinnie wrote:Maybe they should have interviewed more people for that article, and not just one guy who is hammered on the WJ juice?

An interesting quote, in reply to a CBC news article:


"There are a few concerns I have being a WJ pilots wife... First and most important is safety. My husband is pushed to his limits alllll the time. Working 13 hour days and 19-21 days a month not 16. Most are unpaid due to changes of bases in the company. He has been forced to commute from accross the country rather then the WEST he was hired for. When he drives home after 17-20 hr days due to his commute I worry. Sure he could choose not to further his carrier and stay commuting from the west and many have chosen that but is that fair? For the record the union is pilot run, not an outside representative. There are many more points like no loss of license insurance or no mental disability... I could go on...."
"Forced to commute". Hilarious. No one is ever forced to commute, it is always a choice.
Not much of a choice when you are settled in Calgary. Especially if your wife has a good job there, you have a nice home there, all you babystitting/daycare arrangements are there. Then nice ol' WJ comes along and says " if you want to keep your left seat, pack your bags and move to Toronto. Or, move three hours north, so you can afford a house."

Yup, that's the friendly WJ family attitude now.

If there wasn't a need for a union, there wouldn't be a big push. Simple as that!
What a sense of entitlement.... You remind me of that old joke, "what's the difference between God and a pilot? God doesn't think he's a pilot."

It's union slobs like yourself who turn a well oiled machine into a junk heap incapable of change.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#61 Post by #37 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:48 am

If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#62 Post by jjj » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:45 am

The five choices of; move, commute, downgrade, bypass, quit were unnecessarily enshrined.

There were other solutions tabled and were ignored. The difference at WestJet was that these were choices that were imposed after the fact. This is not a case of somebody joining an airline and then disliking the consequences of business choices. These ultimatums were unrealistic creations of narrow minded policy makers.

These are not whiners - they're real people with families that had the rules arbitrarily changed. The stress is palpable and not to be dismissed.

So mister retired aviator of 35 years that only had to move 8 times - you don't know what you're talking about in this situation.

Have a nice day.

JJJ
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#63 Post by complexintentions » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:13 am

My apologies to the fine readers, my earlier post was deleted due to I assume, my colourful language describing my opinion of someone tossing around their T4 info during a union drive. I shall rephrase.

My query still stands: has anyone flown with the good Captain Robin Murray lately? (Surely I can use his name since it's plainly mentioned in the CBC news article?)

And did he pay for lunch? (Given that he's apparently quite open about making 315K/yr...)

:mrgreen:
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#64 Post by True North » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:05 pm

#37 wrote:If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.
Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#65 Post by True North » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:11 pm

jjj wrote:The five choices of; move, commute, downgrade, bypass, quit were unnecessarily enshrined.

There were other solutions tabled and were ignored. The difference at WestJet was that these were choices that were imposed after the fact. This is not a case of somebody joining an airline and then disliking the consequences of business choices. These ultimatums were unrealistic creations of narrow minded policy makers.

These are not whiners - they're real people with families that had the rules arbitrarily changed. The stress is palpable and not to be dismissed.

So mister retired aviator of 35 years that only had to move 8 times - you don't know what you're talking about in this situation.

Have a nice day.

JJJ
I put the same challenge to you as #37, educate us. Tell us about the "narrow minded policy makers" and their "unrealistic creations". I'm very curious. What are these other solutions that were tabled and ignored? I already know about the Ports experiment that failed miserably. What else was there?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#66 Post by jjj » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:38 pm

Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#67 Post by jjj » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:47 pm

complexintentions wrote:My apologies to the fine readers, my earlier post was deleted due to I assume, my colourful language describing my opinion of someone tossing around their T4 info during a union drive. I shall rephrase.

My query still stands: has anyone flown with the good Captain Robin Murray lately? (Surely I can use his name since it's plainly mentioned in the CBC news article?)

And did he pay for lunch? (Given that he's apparently quite open about making 315K/yr...)

:mrgreen:
Complex.

Captain Murray is a hell of a guy. Even the people that are pissed about the article still respect him. The article blew up and was a misfire and a backfire at the same time.

'Nuff said.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#68 Post by #37 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:34 pm

True North wrote:
#37 wrote:If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.
Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".
Ha ha, I sure wasn't. Figure it out.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to read betrayal, anger and disappointment between the lines of recent news articles, this thread and others. Doesn't take a psychologist to know that calling it entitled or telling people to suck it up won't help the situation and is rarely true.
You seem close to the action, if you can't figure it out, I certainly can't help you.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#69 Post by True North » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:25 pm

jjj wrote:Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ
That's one side of the story.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#70 Post by True North » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:29 pm

#37 wrote:
True North wrote:
#37 wrote:If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected.

Always a positive move to shove head firmly into sand and cover it with the "entitlement" sand.
Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".
Ha ha, I sure wasn't. Figure it out.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to read betrayal, anger and disappointment between the lines of recent news articles, this thread and others. Doesn't take a psychologist to know that calling it entitled or telling people to suck it up won't help the situation and is rarely true.
You seem close to the action, if you can't figure it out, I certainly can't help you.
Typical politcal/union drivel. Can't answer the question so just regurgitate your previous statement.

I'm not sure what action you think I'm close to to. The golf course is shut down for the day.

Some of you guys are truly pathetic.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#71 Post by KK7 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:46 pm

Weren't bases voted on, and passed, by the pilots?

What would have been different if a union was in place at the time?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#72 Post by jjj » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:44 pm

True North wrote:
jjj wrote:Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ
That's one side of the story.
Well then True North - please do share a snippet of the other side of the story - I'm all ears.

JJJ
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#73 Post by #37 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:56 pm

True North wrote:
#37 wrote:
True North wrote: Then do please help us understand how you were "betrayed".
Ha ha, I sure wasn't. Figure it out.
Doesn't take a brain surgeon to read betrayal, anger and disappointment between the lines of recent news articles, this thread and others. Doesn't take a psychologist to know that calling it entitled or telling people to suck it up won't help the situation and is rarely true.
You seem close to the action, if you can't figure it out, I certainly can't help you.
Typical politcal/union drivel. Can't answer the question so just regurgitate your previous statement.

I'm not sure what action you think I'm close to to. The golf course is shut down for the day.

Some of you guys are truly pathetic.
Oh, this is getting better all the time! Which union am I driveling for, and what actually constitutes "union drivel"?
Hooooo wheeee!!!!
I answered the question, I have not been betrayed!!!! Can you have a go at my question?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#74 Post by True North » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:15 am

jjj wrote:
True North wrote:
jjj wrote:Ports were not a failure - they were continuing to evolve. Ask the many fine Pilots and FAs from Edmonton and Winnipeg what they thought of their ports?

It was never proven that ports even on a very limited level could not work with bases. It was a policy based on bias and in reaction to a very bad winter. Perhaps bases should have been started years sooner when the pilots wanted them.

The base committee warned WestJet that they were not going to be able to build a base so quickly in YYZ. Without some form of organic growth in the beginning you're creating commuters not soldiers on the ground where you need. The base committee was right and their recommends were dismissed.

The policy makers initially offered about 6K for a cross country move. The pilots fought for more than 50K. They eventually shook hands on 45K. WestJet put a red pen to that and released 40K!

It took almost 2 years but now the WJPA has squeezed out 52K.

Anyhow - that is the tip of the iceberg - I think you get the idea.

So True North, thanks for chiming in and have a nice day. Keep up the good work there son.

JJJ
That's one side of the story.
Well then True North - please do share a snippet of the other side of the story - I'm all ears.

JJJ
Seriously? You want me, some guy on the Internet to explain it to you? Why don't you really educate yourself and go to the source. Your company has a stated open door policy and the guys that I know in your flight ops management all seem pretty approachable. I'm sure any one of them would be happy to sit down with you. I'm serious here, you guys are heading down a road with a lot of potholes in it. Doing that without getting ALL the information you need is folly.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#75 Post by True North » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:32 am

#37 wrote: Oh, this is getting better all the time! Which union am I driveling for, and what actually constitutes "union drivel"?
Hooooo wheeee!!!!
I answered the question, I have not been betrayed!!!! Can you have a go at my question?
Hmm, #37. Yup, that's you.

"If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected".

That's a quote from #37 above so I'm pretty sure that's still you. Now you're saying you weren't betrayed. So you're just parroting the party line then? Or have you just forgotten you meds?
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