WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#76 Post by jjj » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:49 am

True North,

Have you made the assumption that I'm a union card signer?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#77 Post by #37 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:54 am

True North wrote:
#37 wrote: Oh, this is getting better all the time! Which union am I driveling for, and what actually constitutes "union drivel"?
Hooooo wheeee!!!!
I answered the question, I have not been betrayed!!!! Can you have a go at my question?
Hmm, #37. Yup, that's you.

"If you don't understand the issues just label it "entitled". Absolves oneself of trying to understand the betrayal, frustration, disappointment and anger involved by those affected".

That's a quote from #37 above so I'm pretty sure that's still you. Now you're saying you weren't betrayed. So you're just parroting the party line then? Or have you just forgotten you meds?
"By those affected". Not me.
Seriously, is your reading comprehension level at about grade 5?

I can see I've been having a nice chat with a very one dimensional person, Still haven't answered my question. What union am I driveling for and what exactly constitutes "union drivel"?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#78 Post by Red1 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:22 am

The thing is a union wouldn't have saved the ports... the company decides where it needs to have its crew.. the pilot organization only aids in helping build the policy.

The base conversation was happening for years as WestJet, it was always the white elephant in the room. To say that other things weren't looked at is naive. Everyone new it would eventually come, just didn't think it would effect them. There's no doubt it could have been done better, but they are here, its done. I don't envy the choice some had to make or have yet to make, but you still have a choice, its your choice, and its not forever. I understand that many made life choices on the belief that ports were forever, I am sure the same is true for people who worked for C3, Sky Service etc. Its rather cliche to say the only constant in aviation is change, but its a cliche for a reason. In the long run the bases had to happen (especially with the new duty day rules, assuming they eventually come). Whether it was five years ago, today, or five years from now, a group of people were going to be personally effected by this change. :|
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#79 Post by Mostly Harmless » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:57 am

KK7 wrote:Weren't bases voted on, and passed, by the pilots?

What would have been different if a union was in place at the time?
Hi KK7.

There was no vote on bases. It was a top down decision.

Since your second question is in the realm of hypothetical, none of us can factually answer it. The probable answer is, no.

True North: I have been reading through this thread and I am curious about something, if you would be so kind. Why is a person who does not work for the airline and who is retired, so extremely passionate about this issue?
True North wrote: Your company has a stated open door policy and the guys that I know in your flight ops management all seem pretty approachable. I'm sure any one of them would be happy to sit down with you.
Weeelllll.... it depends on how you define open door.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#80 Post by True North » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:40 pm

Mostly Harmless wrote:True North: I have been reading through this thread and I am curious about something, if you would be so kind. Why is a person who does not work for the airline and who is retired, so extremely passionate about this issue?
Fair question. Firstly, I'm hardly extremely passionate, mostly just bored right now because the weather is not conducive to golfing. And I must admit, in general and especially with pilots, I have zero tolerance for whiners and complainers and the oh, woe is me crowd. I do like to poke them. :D

I've been around a long time. I was around when WestJet was just a good idea and I know a couple of the founding fathers. I had the opportunity to get on right at the beginning but I had just gotten my dream job so I passed. I knew WestJet was going to be successful, it just felt right and I loved the idea of employee ownership. What I didn't pass on was the opportunity to by WJ stock as soon as I could, and I bought a bunch. Best, smartest investment I ever made. It returned an obscene profit which is significantly contributing to my very comfortable retirement. Thank you for that. I also have quite a few very good friends working there. Some are line pilots, one is a checker and one is in flight ops management. So yeah, I have a bit of a soft spot for WestJet. I started flying on WJ as a passenger, excuse me - a guest, whenever I could to support the new guy and my investment. It was a refreshing change from the drab and surly service at Air Canada at the time, and most U.S. carriers for that matter. I've noticed a change over the last couple of years and I'm sorry to say it but right now, Air Canada is eating your lunch. They have really picked up their game and you guys would do well to take notice.

I spent the last part of my career managing a corporate flight department that included a BBJ in the fleet. Over the years I have met several WestJet Chief Pilots and Standards pilots at various industry symposiums and conferences. They all impressed me as really top notch people and were always willing to share a beer and technical information, and sometimes more. So through my professional and personal contacts at WJ I have heard a great deal, from both sides of the fence.

WestJet is still a great company providing really good jobs. I'm sure nobody wants that to change but from the outside looking in, it sure seems like some of you guys are intent on messing that up. Talk about "betrayal", forced commuting and all the other BS paints you guys in a very poor light. All your perceived problems, every one of them, are first world problems. Some of you guys need to take a deep breath, take a step back and focus on what you have instead of what you don't have. Then go hug you wife or your kids and remember what's really important.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#81 Post by kaput » Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:08 pm

True North wrote:
Mostly Harmless wrote:True North: I have been reading through this thread and I am curious about something, if you would be so kind. Why is a person who does not work for the airline and who is retired, so extremely passionate about this issue?
Fair question. Firstly, I'm hardly extremely passionate, mostly just bored right now because the weather is not conducive to golfing. And I must admit, in general and especially with pilots, I have zero tolerance for whiners and complainers and the oh, woe is me crowd. I do like to poke them. :D

I've been around a long time. I was around when WestJet was just a good idea and I know a couple of the founding fathers. I had the opportunity to get on right at the beginning but I had just gotten my dream job so I passed. I knew WestJet was going to be successful, it just felt right and I loved the idea of employee ownership. What I didn't pass on was the opportunity to by WJ stock as soon as I could, and I bought a bunch. Best, smartest investment I ever made. It returned an obscene profit which is significantly contributing to my very comfortable retirement. Thank you for that. I also have quite a few very good friends working there. Some are line pilots, one is a checker and one is in flight ops management. So yeah, I have a bit of a soft spot for WestJet. I started flying on WJ as a passenger, excuse me - a guest, whenever I could to support the new guy and my investment. It was a refreshing change from the drab and surly service at Air Canada at the time, and most U.S. carriers for that matter. I've noticed a change over the last couple of years and I'm sorry to say it but right now, Air Canada is eating your lunch. They have really picked up their game and you guys would do well to take notice.

I spent the last part of my career managing a corporate flight department that included a BBJ in the fleet. Over the years I have met several WestJet Chief Pilots and Standards pilots at various industry symposiums and conferences. They all impressed me as really top notch people and were always willing to share a beer and technical information, and sometimes more. So through my professional and personal contacts at WJ I have heard a great deal, from both sides of the fence.

WestJet is still a great company providing really good jobs. I'm sure nobody wants that to change but from the outside looking in, it sure seems like some of you guys are intent on messing that up. Talk about "betrayal", forced commuting and all the other BS paints you guys in a very poor light. All your perceived problems, every one of them, are first world problems. Some of you guys need to take a deep breath, take a step back and focus on what you have instead of what you don't have. Then go hug you wife or your kids and remember what's really important.

Wow, well said.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#82 Post by Flyboycanada80 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:20 pm

Yeah! Screw all those young guys with their unrealistic expectations of a decent wage and lifestyle! You got what you wanted! Made a ton of money on shares off the workers backs! Retire early! Awesome congrats again! It's best all the FO's live together in a crew house anyways, that way they can study together and practice those SOPs. Having a house and family is so over rated.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#83 Post by KK7 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:33 pm

Mostly Harmless wrote:
KK7 wrote:Weren't bases voted on, and passed, by the pilots?

What would have been different if a union was in place at the time?
Hi KK7.

There was no vote on bases. It was a top down decision.

Since your second question is in the realm of hypothetical, none of us can factually answer it. The probable answer is, no.
Was there not a vote on the base MOA in June 2013?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#84 Post by Mostly Harmless » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:07 pm

True North,

Thanks. That was a very informative and well thought out answer. Two thumbs up.
KK7 wrote: Was there not a vote on the base MOA in June 2013?
No. There was a vote to accept or reject the compensation being offered for moving to Toronto but there was no say on the creation of bases. That may be the vote to which you are referring.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#85 Post by Legacy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:56 am

I will have to agree with flyboy on this one, true north. It's easy to sit back and be an armchair quarterback especially when guys here made you the money that you are sitting on. YOU'RE welcome. If you are going to express your opinion of what's going on at WJ you should get yourself informed first otherwise it's just a BS opinion.
There are some very legitimate concerns going on and you just sit back and spit in the face of those coming forward with them. You say go home and spend time with the family? Oh sorry, the bases took another 4-5 days away from the family for a good number of these pilots. Like I said, easy to sit back and be an arm chair quarterback. Wish I could be in your comfy shoes and criticize.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#86 Post by Red1 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:18 am

The base MOA was a vote on the policies regarding bases, not the bases themselves.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#87 Post by Impact » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:40 am

Very well said True North. Couldn't agree with you more.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#88 Post by North Shore » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:55 am

Seems like a bit of a moot point now: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3116512

It appears that the hill just got a little steeper for the union drive..
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#89 Post by #37 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:30 pm

Nicely done truenorth, AC is eating WestJet lunch, but the employees are just concerned about "1st world problems". Ya don't think there is a connection maybe?

Now that we have your very nice life story any chance you could let us know what union I am driveling for and what constitutes "union drivel"?
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#90 Post by Legacy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:47 pm

North Shore wrote:Seems like a bit of a moot point now: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3116512

It appears that the hill just got a little steeper for the union drive..
Why would you think that? Have a ballot vote. If you have 50+1 in the ballot vote you certify. So where's the difference really. Either way you need 50+1
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#91 Post by True North » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:53 pm

Flyboycanada80 wrote:Yeah! Screw all those young guys with their unrealistic expectations of a decent wage and lifestyle! You got what you wanted! Made a ton of money on shares off the workers backs! Retire early! Awesome congrats again! It's best all the FO's live together in a crew house anyways, that way they can study together and practice those SOPs. Having a house and family is so over rated.
"Off the workers backs!" That's pretty funny. While I was buying my WJA shares on the market, those poor downtrodden employees were getting theirs at half price through their share purchase plan. They did a helluva lot better than me on their investment so don't feel too sorry for them.

You're right though, after 35 years of hard work and some shrewd (lucky) investing I did get what I want. Not sure where I said I retired early. And what "young guys" at WestJet don't have a decent wage or lifestyle?

Your entire post screams ME TOO. Except you don't want to work for it, you want it now = ENTITLED.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#92 Post by True North » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:02 pm

Legacy wrote:I will have to agree with flyboy on this one, true north. It's easy to sit back and be an armchair quarterback especially when guys here made you the money that you are sitting on. YOU'RE welcome. If you are going to express your opinion of what's going on at WJ you should get yourself informed first otherwise it's just a BS opinion.
There are some very legitimate concerns going on and you just sit back and spit in the face of those coming forward with them. You say go home and spend time with the family? Oh sorry, the bases took another 4-5 days away from the family for a good number of these pilots. Like I said, easy to sit back and be an arm chair quarterback. Wish I could be in your comfy shoes and criticize.
You obviously didn't read what I said. I am informed, quite well actually and I think I have a very balanced view. I didn't get all my information from one source or one group. Like I said, I've heard from line guys, checkers, standards and management people. And just so you know, no one has ever said everything was perfect or that there isn't work to do. It's all just perspective.

You want more time with your family but bases took that away. Then MOVE. Go live at your base, stop commuting. IT'S A CHOICE! Maybe it's a hard one but it's still a choice.

You're right there with your pal flyboy. You wish you could be in my comfy shoes but you want it now. You can go join him in the Entitled line.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#93 Post by True North » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:09 pm

#37 wrote:Nicely done truenorth, AC is eating WestJet lunch, but the employees are just concerned about "1st world problems". Ya don't think there is a connection maybe?

Now that we have your very nice life story any chance you could let us know what union I am driveling for and what constitutes "union drivel"?
Son, you only got one oar in the water.

You still haven't told us who was betrayed or what the betrayal was. Here's what you do; go get a piece of paper and a crayon. Write down on the paper who the people were that were betrayed and how they were betrayed. Then go find a mirror. Hold the piece of paper up to the mirror and look at it and you will see the "party line", aka; union drivel.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#94 Post by True North » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:12 pm

Legacy wrote:
North Shore wrote:Seems like a bit of a moot point now: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3116512

It appears that the hill just got a little steeper for the union drive..
Why would you think that? Have a ballot vote. If you have 50+1 in the ballot vote you certify. So where's the difference really. Either way you need 50+1
Except that 50% + 1 is now of the entire workforce, not just those who voted and anyone who doesn't vote is now counted as a NO vote. Way, way steeper hill.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#95 Post by flyingvinnie » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:54 pm

True North wrote:
Mostly Harmless wrote:True North: I have been reading through this thread and I am curious about something, if you would be so kind. Why is a person who does not work for the airline and who is retired, so extremely passionate about this issue?
Fair question. Firstly, I'm hardly extremely passionate, mostly just bored right now because the weather is not conducive to golfing. And I must admit, in general and especially with pilots, I have zero tolerance for whiners and complainers and the oh, woe is me crowd. I do like to poke them. :D

I've been around a long time. I was around when WestJet was just a good idea and I know a couple of the founding fathers. I had the opportunity to get on right at the beginning but I had just gotten my dream job so I passed. I knew WestJet was going to be successful, it just felt right and I loved the idea of employee ownership. What I didn't pass on was the opportunity to by WJ stock as soon as I could, and I bought a bunch. Best, smartest investment I ever made. It returned an obscene profit which is significantly contributing to my very comfortable retirement. Thank you for that. I also have quite a few very good friends working there. Some are line pilots, one is a checker and one is in flight ops management. So yeah, I have a bit of a soft spot for WestJet. I started flying on WJ as a passenger, excuse me - a guest, whenever I could to support the new guy and my investment. It was a refreshing change from the drab and surly service at Air Canada at the time, and most U.S. carriers for that matter. I've noticed a change over the last couple of years and I'm sorry to say it but right now, Air Canada is eating your lunch. They have really picked up their game and you guys would do well to take notice.

I spent the last part of my career managing a corporate flight department that included a BBJ in the fleet. Over the years I have met several WestJet Chief Pilots and Standards pilots at various industry symposiums and conferences. They all impressed me as really top notch people and were always willing to share a beer and technical information, and sometimes more. So through my professional and personal contacts at WJ I have heard a great deal, from both sides of the fence.

WestJet is still a great company providing really good jobs. I'm sure nobody wants that to change but from the outside looking in, it sure seems like some of you guys are intent on messing that up. Talk about "betrayal", forced commuting and all the other BS paints you guys in a very poor light. All your perceived problems, every one of them, are first world problems. Some of you guys need to take a deep breath, take a step back and focus on what you have instead of what you don't have. Then go hug you wife or your kids and remember what's really important.

So, you say you never worked for WJ, yet you know it's a "great company". I think the people that work there might have a more realistic and accurate understanding? :roll:
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#96 Post by mel gibson » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:11 pm

Interesting debate.

All I can say is good luck at the bottom of the list of some merger and enjoy
watching Cseries flying around operated by Encore, If you believe in
GS and his lackies. Maybe talk to some Alaskan pilots and what he did to the
morale there.

Good luck
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#97 Post by URC » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:03 pm

Except that 50% + 1 is now of the entire workforce, not just those who voted and anyone who doesn't vote is now counted as a NO vote. Way, way steeper hill.
"28. (1) If the Board is satisfied on the basis of the results of a secret ballot representation vote that a majority of the employees in a unit who have cast a ballot have voted to have a trade union represent them as their bargaining agent, the Board shall, subject to this Part, certify the trade union as the bargaining agent for the unit".

I'm not a lawyer but the above sounds like you only need 50%+1 of those "who have cast a ballot". Not 50%+1 of the total members.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications ... =E&File=33
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#98 Post by Legacy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:28 pm

True North wrote:
Legacy wrote:I will have to agree with flyboy on this one, true north. It's easy to sit back and be an armchair quarterback especially when guys here made you the money that you are sitting on. YOU'RE welcome. If you are going to express your opinion of what's going on at WJ you should get yourself informed first otherwise it's just a BS opinion.
There are some very legitimate concerns going on and you just sit back and spit in the face of those coming forward with them. You say go home and spend time with the family? Oh sorry, the bases took another 4-5 days away from the family for a good number of these pilots. Like I said, easy to sit back and be an arm chair quarterback. Wish I could be in your comfy shoes and criticize.
You obviously didn't read what I said. I am informed, quite well actually and I think I have a very balanced view. I didn't get all my information from one source or one group. Like I said, I've heard from line guys, checkers, standards and management people. And just so you know, no one has ever said everything was perfect or that there isn't work to do. It's all just perspective.

You want more time with your family but bases took that away. Then MOVE. Go live at your base, stop commuting. IT'S A CHOICE! Maybe it's a hard one but it's still a choice.

LMAO you SURE you're not management at WJ? We heard it all before. That is something someone says that doesn't understand aviation. Some can't move because they lose shared custody of their kids. Some can't move because their wife has a job. Some can't move due to hardships on the family. I think you better walk in someone else's shoes before assuming life is so easy for everyone else.


You're right there with your pal flyboy. You wish you could be in my comfy shoes but you want it now. You can go join him in the Entitled line.
And yet another funny yet uneducated statement
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#99 Post by #37 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:18 pm

True North wrote:
#37 wrote:Nicely done truenorth, AC is eating WestJet lunch, but the employees are just concerned about "1st world problems". Ya don't think there is a connection maybe?

Now that we have your very nice life story any chance you could let us know what union I am driveling for and what constitutes "union drivel"?
Son, you only got one oar in the water.

You still haven't told us who was betrayed or what the betrayal was. Here's what you do; go get a piece of paper and a crayon. Write down on the paper who the people were that were betrayed and how they were betrayed. Then go find a mirror. Hold the piece of paper up to the mirror and look at it and you will see the "party line", aka; union drivel.
We will continue this discussion if/when you educate yourself on both aviation and WestJet. For starters, talk to T Morgan or any WestJet pilot about where WestJet was "based" prior to just mere weeks before the current unfolding. Then talk to those effected, "betrayed" by a managment that "cares" by their fellow pilots that voted yes. Again , not effected me at all, except in the general, broader sense that throwing select groups under the bus seems to be a theme in aviation. Call me a bleeding heart, liberal, mother Teresa whatever you wish. "Union drivel" isn't even close.
Going to go paddle in circles.
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Re: WestJet Pilots and Flight Attendants Race to Unionize

#100 Post by True North » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:30 pm

Legacy wrote:
True North wrote:
Legacy wrote:I will have to agree with flyboy on this one, true north. It's easy to sit back and be an armchair quarterback especially when guys here made you the money that you are sitting on. YOU'RE welcome. If you are going to express your opinion of what's going on at WJ you should get yourself informed first otherwise it's just a BS opinion.
There are some very legitimate concerns going on and you just sit back and spit in the face of those coming forward with them. You say go home and spend time with the family? Oh sorry, the bases took another 4-5 days away from the family for a good number of these pilots. Like I said, easy to sit back and be an arm chair quarterback. Wish I could be in your comfy shoes and criticize.
You obviously didn't read what I said. I am informed, quite well actually and I think I have a very balanced view. I didn't get all my information from one source or one group. Like I said, I've heard from line guys, checkers, standards and management people. And just so you know, no one has ever said everything was perfect or that there isn't work to do. It's all just perspective.

You want more time with your family but bases took that away. Then MOVE. Go live at your base, stop commuting. IT'S A CHOICE! Maybe it's a hard one but it's still a choice.

LMAO you SURE you're not management at WJ? We heard it all before. That is something someone says that doesn't understand aviation. Some can't move because they lose shared custody of their kids. Some can't move because their wife has a job. Some can't move due to hardships on the family. I think you better walk in someone else's shoes before assuming life is so easy for everyone else.
You’re still not hearing me. I have walked in those shoes, multiple times.

I got sucked into this debate because people were talking about being “forced to commute” and a sense that having a union would fix everything. The statement is patently untrue and a union won’t change anything. All the examples you listed would make the decision very hard but still, no one is holding a gun to your head. So you gather up all the important people in your life and you talk. You make pro/con lists. You lie in bed staring at the ceiling when you should be sleeping, driving yourself crazy examining the issues sideways and backwards trying to decide what’s best for everyone. Then you make a choice, actually a series of choices. You choose whether or not to accept the base transfer. If you choose yes, then you have to choose commuting or moving.

Anyone faced with this conundrum is by default a senior FO. That in turn means you already enjoy good working conditions and pay. 90% of the population is getting by on considerably less. It seems to me the worst case scenario is you do nothing. You’re ensconced where you want to be and I’m willing to bet that before the specter of bases reared it’s ugly head, being a senior FO at WJ was a great gig. I’d also be willing to bet that there are several thousand pilots in Canada alone that would trade places with you in a heartbeat. Another choice you have is the status quo and live with it. And by that I don’t mean you endure it but you live it. It’s not a prison sentence and it’s not for life because who knows what will happen next year or the next. If you haven’t figured it out yet, things change and life is not always going to go according to your plan. I can’t think of a more volatile industry than aviation. If you don’t like change you might have picked the wrong career.

When all is said and done and you’ve made your choices you have one last one to make. You can choose to focus on the good things in your life and what you have and be happy, or you can choose to focus on what you don’t have and be miserable. That one is dead simple but they’re all choices.

I’ve spent WAY more time on this than I intended. I’m done but you guys feel free to argue amongst yourselves.
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