Saretsky's legacy

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KK7
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#26 Post by KK7 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:18 am

BE20 Driver wrote:They represent the company and it's their job to defend the current system.
They represent the pilots, not the company.
Fact is we can't be a part of this union drive because we are a separate company with a separate OC on effectively a B-scale. Management structured it this way and has created an us and them. The fact that we are treated like separate and lesser employees is what is driving some of the union support in the first place. 96% of WS pilots don't like it and support one list. The WPPA supports one list. Management supports one list. Everyone supports it and it is one of the only thing driving people to apply at Encore.

You eff with our spots on that list and no one will apply to Encore and some of the ones that are here will move on to greener pastures. If that happens, you'll see deliveries pushed back and airplanes parked.
The ones who don't support it are those who end up below Encore pilots at WJA. Question: If certification happens, and these at the bottom of the date of hire list complain to the CIRB that the union is not looking after their interests in good faith by having someone from outside the employee group enter in at a higher seniority level, what could happen to the one list?
Funny though, the WJPA wants to see Encore included in the vote but they want to keep us as separate companies under the current conditions. Seems a little (lot) hypocritical to me. I'm pretty sure they fought hard to keep the 767 guys from loosing any of their benefits.
I believe this is incorrect. WJPA and PACT (for all of Encore employees) is fighting to eventually merge Encore back into WestJet now that the venture has been proven successful.
If the WJPA was serious about representing all of the employees, not just the jet pilots, they would be having discussions with management about changing the structure of Encore to create one company, no separate OC. Just like the wide body pilots. You do this and you'll cut the WPPA guys off at the knees.
The WJPA does not represent all employees, just all the pilots. They seem to be doing a good job for Encore through the current agreement negotiations for Encore with the Encore rep and the negotiating team.
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#27 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:05 am

KK7 wrote:They represent the pilots, not the company.
I actually meant to type "the current system", not the company. Being that the WJPA is an arm of PACT and PACT is an arm of the company, it's not too far off and is one of the criticisms of the current system.

KK7 wrote:The ones who don't support it are those who end up below Encore pilots at WJA. Question: If certification happens, and these at the bottom of the date of hire list complain to the CIRB that the union is not looking after their interests in good faith by having someone from outside the employee group enter in at a higher seniority level, what could happen to the one list?
I agree. As time goes by you will see a bigger rift between the us and them. Again, company created this system. One year ago, 96% of the company supported merging lists. Currently there is a document with my name on it at position XYZ. Both parties would have to agree in writing to another system before I get bumped off of said list. Neither party want that to happen. Support will dwindle as time goes by if and only if we don't move to 100% flow sooner rather than later. I have heard rumours that WS wants this. Mainline wants this and Encore can support it but is using flow as a major bargaining chip in the current contract negotiations. Just a rumour though. To make a major change to something as fundamental as a seniority list, I would suspect you would have to have a clear majority vote and I don't see the support dwindling from 96% down to below 2/3 of the WS pilots in the next year or two. Hopefully by then we will at least be up to 75% flow from Encore.
Funny though, the WJPA wants to see Encore included in the vote but they want to keep us as separate companies under the current conditions. Seems a little (lot) hypocritical to me. I'm pretty sure they fought hard to keep the 767 guys from loosing any of their benefits.
KK7 wrote:I believe this is incorrect. WJPA and PACT (for all of Encore employees) is fighting to eventually merge Encore back into WestJet now that the venture has been proven successful.
If anyone at all, other than the WPPA, is fighting for full integration, they haven't said a single word about it. There aren't even any cockpit rumours that this is something that is being worked on. It hasn't hit any of the WJPA communications about their priorities this year. The WJPA is up to their eyes in negotiating a work contract for Encore Pilots and fighting off the WPPA threat. I have my doubts that this is even on their radar.
KK7 wrote:The WJPA does not represent all employees, just all the pilots. They seem to be doing a good job for Encore through the current agreement negotiations for Encore with the Encore rep and the negotiating team.
[/quote][/quote]

Yes, I know the WJPA doesn't represent anyone other than pilots. Again, I used pilots in the second half of my sentence. Ferio has come out and said that he supports segregation and lower WAWCON for Encore. In fact he has said publicly he doesn't even want to start contract negotiations for Encore until 2017. I'm told the negotiations are going well so far but I have yet to see any actual changes come about.
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#28 Post by KK7 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:17 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:It's not too far off and is one of the criticisms of the current system.
The current executive was voted in by the pilots, you can criticize the system all you want, but do you mean to say the current Executive is secretly fighting for the company and don't have the pilots best interest in mind? If so why don't we go ahead and recall them? I am pretty confident that the current WJPA executive is not throwing anyone under the bus. The WPPA executive on the other hand seem to be throwing Encore pilots under the bus.

I agree. As time goes by you will see a bigger rift between the us and them. Again, company created this system. One year ago, 96% of the company supported merging lists. Currently there is a document with my name on it at position XYZ. Both parties would have to agree in writing to another system before I get bumped off of said list. Neither party want that to happen. Support will dwindle as time goes by if and only if we don't move to 100% flow sooner rather than later. I have heard rumours that WS wants this. Mainline wants this and Encore can support it but is using flow as a major bargaining chip in the current contract negotiations. Just a rumour though. To make a major change to something as fundamental as a seniority list, I would suspect you would have to have a clear majority vote and I don't see the support dwindling from 96% down to below 2/3 of the WS pilots in the next year or two. Hopefully by then we will at least be up to 75% flow from Encore.
It may not come down to a choice about altering the list, but a legal issue. The company might have set it up this way, and that's bad for the pilots. But the WJPA has gone a long way to convince the company that there is value in one list. It might have taken low number of applications at Encore, but so be it. Then comes the WPPA to segregate the two groups of pilots while claiming to support both groups. Who has the proven track record here?

Have you asked the WPPA what will happen to the WPDL?
KK7 wrote:I believe this is incorrect. WJPA and PACT (for all of Encore employees) is fighting to eventually merge Encore back into WestJet now that the venture has been proven successful.
If anyone at all, other than the WPPA, is fighting for full integration, they haven't said a single word about it. There aren't even any cockpit rumours that this is something that is being worked on. It hasn't hit any of the WJPA communications about their priorities this year. The WJPA is up to their eyes in negotiating a work contract for Encore Pilots and fighting off the WPPA threat. I have my doubts that this is even on their radar.
Refer to the PACT AGM minutes. For pilots has been hinted strongly that the intent is to negotiate a single agreement for both pilot groups the next round.
Ferio has come out and said that he supports segregation and lower WAWCON for Encore. In fact he has said publicly he doesn't even want to start contract negotiations for Encore until 2017. I'm told the negotiations are going well so far but I have yet to see any actual changes come about.
Ferio has said a lot of things. But I prefer to go by facts. There is a team negotiating the agreement for Encore pilots right now. According to the recent comms they will have an agreement that will be voted on by the pilots, the just completed the survey and released the results, and their next meeting with leadership is on July 6 and 7.

They also once said they wouldn't fly anything but 737s, never operate east of Winnipeg, never fly in to YYZ and never fly into the US. Seems sometimes things are said and something else happens later, this is not isolated to aviation.
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#29 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:39 pm

KK7 wrote:do you mean to say the current Executive is secretly fighting for the company and don't have the pilots best interest in mind? If so why don't we go ahead and recall them? I am pretty confident that the current WJPA executive is not throwing anyone under the bus. The WPPA executive on the other hand seem to be throwing Encore pilots under the bus.
No and Yes. I can tell you that people at Encore have gone to the WJPA for help on big issues only to be told to go fly a kite. They sure don't seem to be fighting too hard when it might cost the company some money in terms of a 'grievance.' I'm not involved in the contract negotiations and yes, I do believe that the negotiating team is working hard on this.
KK7 wrote:Have you asked the WPPA what will happen to the WPDL?
Yes, I have. Their position is that there exists a document with my name and 300 other pilots at Encore. This is very unusual in that we don't belong to the company but have a place holder. Still, since the document exists today, it remains in force until something else gets negotiated. The WPPA want to strengthen the list and make it a true date of hire seniority list. You will be able to fly what ever aircraft from which ever seat your seniority number will allow you to hold. Each aircraft will have their own pay scale but they want to get rid of the divisions like charging Encore twice as much for their medical dental benefits. The current system is based on being in good standing (pretty vague statement with no definition) and could be flipped on its head tomorrow by the sole option of the company.

Where there is a 96% will to include Encore, there will be a way to accomplish it. If you get rid of the one list and management will have to come up with a new way to attract talent. Money would have to go (way) up. Lifestyle would have to (greatly) improve. Work days would have to decrease from 20. Either way it would be a win.
KK7 wrote:Refer to the PACT AGM minutes. For pilots has been hinted strongly that the intent is to negotiate a single agreement for both pilot groups the next round.
I have read through the AGM minutes for 2013 and 2014. No mention in either document. I can't find the actual minutes for 2015, but I read through all of the motions. There isn't one motion to even consider opening a channel to discuss merging Encore. If you can point me to a document on westnet that contains a reference to this, let me know.

Next round is in 2020? By then, the WPPA will either be a distant memory or will be running the show. I don't know which but waiting until then to merge the two groups will be too little too late. We will become a more fractious, divided group if we continue to hire off the street for the 737 for the next five years.

I too want us to be one harmonious group. I really don't want to see us pitted against each other and treated differently. No one likes to feel like an inferior employee. I don't see the WPPA as the big threat that others do. They're being run by former members of the WJPA and have consulted with SWAPA so they're not completely amateurs. I'm also not certain that they are the solution to all of my problems. I am actually approaching this with an open mind and trying to seek first hand information. The sad thing is that when the time comes, I won't have a say in the decision since I'm not at mainline. This bothers me more than thinly veiled threats from management and almost childish finger pointing from the current ring masters.

Yes, the WJPA has a track record because they have been the only sanctioned group representing pilots. Comparing the track records is like judging an elephant and a monkey on their abilities to climb a tree.
KK7 wrote:Ferio has said a lot of things.
My bad. This is a little off topic and could be its own 3 page thread.

So to my original point, this isn't as scary as the WJPA are making it out to sound. I stand by my opinion if the wide body pilots are treated as well as 737 pilots, then Encore should be as well. I really don't care who manages to accomplish this.
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#30 Post by KK7 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:19 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:I can tell you that people at Encore have gone to the WJPA for help on big issues only to be told to go fly a kite. They sure don't seem to be fighting too hard when it might cost the company some money in terms of a 'grievance.' I'm not involved in the contract negotiations and yes, I do believe that the negotiating team is working hard on this.
Can you provide some examples? I find this pretty hard to believe.
Their position is that there exists a document with my name and 300 other pilots at Encore. This is very unusual in that we don't belong to the company but have a place holder. Still, since the document exists today, it remains in force until something else gets negotiated. The WPPA want to strengthen the list and make it a true date of hire seniority list. You will be able to fly what ever aircraft from which ever seat your seniority number will allow you to hold. Each aircraft will have their own pay scale but they want to get rid of the divisions like charging Encore twice as much for their medical dental benefits. The current system is based on being in good standing (pretty vague statement with no definition) and could be flipped on its head tomorrow by the sole option of the company.

Where there is a 96% will to include Encore, there will be a way to accomplish it. If you get rid of the one list and management will have to come up with a new way to attract talent. Money would have to go (way) up. Lifestyle would have to (greatly) improve. Work days would have to decrease from 20. Either way it would be a win.
It's all nice to say that everyone supports the one list, but we already have this and we have the opportunity to make it better instead of restarting it from scratch. If you visit the WPPA forum you can start to see some of their supporters who are starting to suggest those who were hired directly into WestJet might not deserve being leapfrogged by those who went through Encore. It only takes one to complain to the CIRB that the WPPA is not acting in good faith to protect its members, and the one list is at risk regardless of widespread support.
So to my original point, this isn't as scary as the WJPA are making it out to sound. I stand by my opinion if the wide body pilots are treated as well as 737 pilots, then Encore should be as well. I really don't care who manages to accomplish this.
I beg to differ. I know the WJPA, and it is pretty good representation. I know what unions are like and I have no appetite for that can of worms.
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#31 Post by mikeecho » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:35 pm

johnkruk wrote:His job is to push things as much as possible to raise the stock price as much as possible , what does he care , worse comes to worse , a union gets in the execs get to blame him , fire him and he gets a 10 mill handshake , would you really care if that's what waited for you if you &(":ed your job up ?
The company, from the board level to the executives have been preparing for a union since somewhere around 2012. They aren't going to go out and encourage anyone to unionize, but they've made the decision to not base their actions on whether or not it would spark a potential union drive.

Gone are the days where the executive feared the word union and got canned because some of the line guys aren't happy.
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Re: Saretsky's legacy

#32 Post by Oleo 4 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:06 am

Don't we have two internal website forums that we can discuss these topics. I guess I'd rather keep our laundry in house than air it to the public much like our recent T4-gate.

Just my opinion.
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