Westjet invades LON

[pelmet]

What happened in the Zurich incident?

[Donald]

What happened in the Zurich incident?

Here, let me google that for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/

Seriously, Google "air canada fatigue Zurich" and the answer shall reveal itself.

[altiplano]

Basically a guy woke up from 'controlled' rest and was staring at Venus, bright in the night sky, and thought it was an aircraft coming in head on. He pushed the plane down to where there actually was an aircraft and the push-over/recovery by the other pilot sent a few people in the back for a toss. There were some minor injuries and people sued the airline.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Unfortunately, that incident changed nothing with respect to how Air Canada mitigates pilot fatigue and, more importantly, how Transport Canada and the Conservative government of Canada view pilot fatigue. Passengers were paid off and I am amazed at how quiet that incident was. It should have been the catalyst for positive change in the name of safety. Canada has the WORST fatigue mitigation in the world with no respect for Circadian rhythm. I was hoping Westjet would voluntarily raise the standard cuz Air Canada won't until it is written in blood.

Didn't Air Canada start augmenting that flight?

It was always "augmented". The RP sat in the back of the plane sipping Malbec through the dead of night over the Atlantic with only 2 operating pilots because it was under 9 hours block time but was an active crew member for the return flight that is over 9 hours... you know, for the daytime flight where Circadian Rhythms are not as impacted. Nothing has been improved as far as mitigating Crew Fatigue.

Doesn't AC get full credit for DHing? What is the point of having the guy DH if you have to pay him the same either way!?

Canada is seriously overdue for those flight and duty time regulation changes!

[yycflyguy]

Nope. Scheduled DH attracts 1/2 pay, 1/2 credit. Don't forget, AC is only paying half credit for an RP in the back that is generally on the low end of the pay scale. They are only saving pennies when fatigue safety is at play.

Next time you fly to Europe, buy your operating crew a cup of coffee to get through the night... they are gonna need it.

[complexintentions]

CARS duty regs are worse than the Americans, Europeans... Maybe the worst in the civilised world?

They are worse than ICAO standard so maybe worse than much of the rest?

Who's worse? What's the schtick?

Well, I haven't been trolling the AvCan for awhile, but since you asked...

Try any of the Gulf carriers if you want to see fatiguing schedules. Unlike most North American airlines, the widebodies fly mixed rosters: short, medium, long and ultra-longhaul in the same month. I doubt an AC B777 pilot does any short flights and only a few longhaul due to the sector lengths, while likewise a narrowbody pilot will do more sectors but stay in a much narrower timezone band and less (or zero) night flying.

The ME hubs have a huge amount of flying on the backside of the clock due to the hub-and-spoke model and location. As well as east-west mix, shorter rest times, shorter layovers, lighter augmenting, fewer days off, and higher monthly scheduled hours, around 95/month for the last couple years. Try DXB-BOS-DXB with a 26 hour layover, then a couple days off and then DXB-KIX (2 pilots). What's that crossing, a total of like 17 timezones in both directions? Follow that with a day or two off, a rest day, and then perhaps a night turnaround flight to Hyderabad. Pickup time 0030, departure time 0245, two 4 hour sectors, and returning to DXB around 1300. 2 pilots. It's called an "Annex 1" flight, because it actually exceeds the maximum operating time for only 2 pilots but EK has a waiver to do it as long as they meet certain conditions (i.e. can't do more than 3 in one month, etc). Throw in some Euro trips (6-8 hours sectors), maybe another night turn leaving at 10pm returning at 6am just to round out the month. Ground duties are not credited, so if it's PPC month or CRM or SEP or online training, all must be completed in addition to the monthly flying. This is why crews are resigning at unprecedented rates, and they have lowered the experience requirements to join to a bare ATPL, no jet experience required - the model is not sustainable, and the word is out. People are exhausted.

These are the fastest growing, most profitable airlines in the world, not to mention rapidly becoming the largest. (EK is apparently, the world's largest international airline now). And it's no coincidence that they also have the most "productive" workforces. Sadly, I doubt they are trying to match their regulatory levels to that of the Europeans or the North Americans, if anything I'm absolutely sure companies like AC would LOVE to have the same leeway with scheduling enjoyed in the ME. It is always a race to the bottom.

But that's why I have to laugh when I hear a rant about how Canada's regs are "the worst". Not a chance. They could be better, and pilots need to advocate endlessly to improve them. But don't feel too sorry for yourself, it's all relative and a schedule at any Canadian 705 is pretty cushy. Just underpaid and overtaxed.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

CI,

He seems to have been referring to the regulations, not the airline scheduling. CARs flight and duty regs are far less restrictive than the regs in the Gulf. The Gulf airlines push the limits of their regs more than the Canadian airlines do though.

[altiplano]

Regulation is what I was wondering..

But.. since you're trolling I may as well bite...

Interesting that an 0030 p/u , 02:45 dep, with a 1300 return requires an exemption to do on the regs...

I count that as a 11.5 hr duty day and I could get assigned those with 2 pilots all month... No exemption required... Doesn't matter if it's on the backside of the clock.

In fact AC is operating red-eye turns with widebody crew on a similar pairing out of YYZ - going west late evening and then operating a red eye back.. Home just in time for Toronto rush hour...

Then I could easily be gone overseas the next day, even the same night if back early and get a late report for the second pairing - two duty periods in the same day...

I'm sure you guys are getting the shaft in general... But 10.5 hours duty all night flying needing an exemption? And only 3 times a month! Pretty sweet from where I'm sitting...

Shit, that's most of the European schedule out of Canada... And is being done with only 2 guys at AC/AT/rouge... Now WS... And guys are doing it and longer more than 3 times a month... AFAIK AC is the only one using 3rd pilots and a trip like that wouldn't get one... In fact RPse are deadheading half the time because the contract doesn't require it on the shorter flight eastbound...

Pilots in Canada are doing 10, 11 and longer block hour days... duty hours pushing 14, flying all night - even extending when things run a little late unforeseen... 2 pilots... Day in day out and Transport Canada is okay with it. Archaic...

[yycflyguy]

Regulation is what I was wondering..

But.. since you're trolling I may as well bite...

Interesting that an 0030 p/u , 02:45 dep, with a 1300 return requires an exemption to do on the regs...

I count that as a 11.5 hr duty day and I could get assigned those with 2 pilots all month... No exemption required... Doesn't matter if it's on the backside of the clock.

In fact AC is operating red-eye turns with widebody crew on a similar pairing out of YYZ - going west late evening and then operating a red eye back.. Home just in time for Toronto rush hour...

Then I could easily be gone overseas the next day, even the same night if back early and get a late report for the second pairing - two duty periods in the same day...

I'm sure you guys are getting the shaft in general... But 10.5 hours duty all night flying needing an exemption? And only 3 times a month! Pretty sweet from where I'm sitting...

Shit, that's most of the European schedule out of Canada... And is being done with only 2 guys at AC/AT/rouge... Now WS... And guys are doing it and longer more than 3 times a month... AFAIK AC is the only one using 3rd pilots and a trip like that wouldn't get one... In fact RPse are deadheading half the time because the contract doesn't require it on the shorter flight eastbound...

Pilots in Canada are doing 10, 11 and longer block hour days... duty hours pushing 14, flying all night - even extending when things run a little late unforeseen... 2 pilots... Day in day out and Transport Canada is okay with it. Archaic...

Well said Altiplano. I was hoping Westjet would break the norm but they elected to place profit ahead of safety like everyone else going TransAtlantic.

[complexintentions]

Regulation is what I was wondering..

But.. since you're trolling I may as well bite...

Interesting that an 0030 p/u , 02:45 dep, with a 1300 return requires an exemption to do on the regs...

I count that as a 11.5 hr duty day and I could get assigned those with 2 pilots all month... No exemption required... Doesn't matter if it's on the backside of the clock.

In fact AC is operating red-eye turns with widebody crew on a similar pairing out of YYZ - going west late evening and then operating a red eye back.. Home just in time for Toronto rush hour...

Then I could easily be gone overseas the next day, even the same night if back early and get a late report for the second pairing - two duty periods in the same day...

I'm sure you guys are getting the shaft in general... But 10.5 hours duty all night flying needing an exemption? And only 3 times a month! Pretty sweet from where I'm sitting...

Shit, that's most of the European schedule out of Canada... And is being done with only 2 guys at AC/AT/rouge... Now WS... And guys are doing it and longer more than 3 times a month... AFAIK AC is the only one using 3rd pilots and a trip like that wouldn't get one... In fact RPse are deadheading half the time because the contract doesn't require it on the shorter flight eastbound...

Pilots in Canada are doing 10, 11 and longer block hour days... duty hours pushing 14, flying all night - even extending when things run a little late unforeseen... 2 pilots... Day in day out and Transport Canada is okay with it. Archaic...

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but I AM curious at your attempt to portray Canadian regs and thus schedules, as "tough" and still say...uhhhh no.I did fly in Canada for many years before leaving, you know. I find the comparisons interesting.

A few questions?

I count that as a 11.5 hr duty day and I could get assigned those with 2 pilots all month... No exemption required... Doesn't matter if it's on the backside of the clock.

In fact AC is operating red-eye turns with widebody crew on a similar pairing out of YYZ - going west late evening and then operating a red eye back.. Home just in time for Toronto rush hour...

1. "similar pairing"? How is a YYZ-Europe (which city? Not mentioned.) comparable to a turnaround? You say "most of the European schedule out of Canada" but surely YVR-LHR has different crewing levels than YYZ-LHR? Are you saying 2 pilots fly YYZ-LHR-YYZ in one duty day? I sorta doubt it. The example I gave was two flights in one duty, not one sector. Are any Euro destinations done as turnarounds? And the limit of three per month is only for those types of flights, not total flights lol. The flight I was mentioning would be more like doing YYZ-YVR as a turnaround with two pilots, on the backside of the clock. Do you really do such a pairing multiple times a month, plus two flights to SYD, something about the length of YYZ-LAX and a something like YYZ-JFK length thrown in? Are you saying you can do a 10, 11, and longer single sector with only two pilots? Hmmm. I don't think we can go more than 10.5 hours block without a third pilot so I guess we do have it pretty "sweet" hahah!

2. What is the shortest sector a widebody flies versus longest at AC? EK goes from about 1:00 (ACC-ABJ) to more than 17 hours (DXB-PTY starting in February, also DXB-IAH and DXB-LAX are nearly 17hr). Do AC pilots really get scheduled from ULR to the shortest flight that regularly? Timezones do matter.

3. Do ground duties at AC count towards monthly hour totals? At EK, they do not. So you can easily bump up around 100 block hours (not duty!), then have a recurrent PPC with two 0200 sessions and an all-day groundschool on top of that. Been there, done that.

4. The big question. Ultimately, how many hours/month do AC pilots fly on average? That's where the killer factors settle in, because fatigue is cumulative. Anyone can do a huge schedule for a month, two, six...but trying pulling 95+ hrs block/month of mixed flying year in year out...yes, I know, a float pilot flying seasonally does eight zillion hours a month and washes the plane blah blah blah. But let's talk international longhaul ops if we can try to get a relevant comparison of regulatory oversight.

AllI know is I have numerous acquaintances in airlines in Canada, including RP on the B777 at AC and he mostly does a few Oz flights a month and is shocked by the schedules in the ME. If the most senior position at AC (widebody captain) is really such a grind I find that news to me.

I do apologize for the thread drift but it does link to this comment of

I was hoping Westjet would break the norm but they elected to place profit ahead of safety like everyone else going TransAtlantic.

What does that mean? Is YYC-LGW with two pilots considered unsafe? What would you consider adequate crewing for the sector? Get serious. EK would be doing YVR-LHR with 2 pilots and LHR-YVR with 3. With the more "restrictive" regs.

He seems to have been referring to the regulations, not the airline scheduling. CARs flight and duty regs are far less restrictive than the regs in the Gulf. The Gulf airlines push the limits of their regs more than the Canadian airlines do though.

If the Canadian regs are so lax, how come - by your own statement - airlines in Canada allow their crews to be so unproductive versus their Gulf competitors? Unions? In that case, expect the overseas competitors to continue to take market share. I fully expect to see ME aircraft in YYC, YVR and elsewhere in the next few years. Protectionism only delays the inevitable. Thankfully I will be long gone from both the ME and Canada.

[altiplano]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match either. As I said, I'm sure you're getting the shaft and being used right up by EK. In your case it's only the regs that stop you from getting it worse. Here it's largely the contract that limits it.

Edit-

Don't want to hijack this further.
Suffice to say widebodies flying domestic sectors as short as an hour, long turnds, red eye turns (ie. yyz-yyc 767), and multileg overseas. Your impression of 3 ultra long hauls a month are only the most senior guys on the 777/787 most guys are on amixed bag of sorts getting their hours the hard way.

Again, don't want to make it a pissing match on who works harder. We all work hard and fly 1000 hours a year give or take. Point is that the regs in Canada are behind what the US has, what Europe has, what ICAO has.

That was my question... Where are the regs worse than in Canada?