Ex pilot sues Westjet

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Fanblade
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Fanblade »

In Canada it is exceedingly difficult to terminate someone's employment. Every I has to be dotted. Every T crossed. The employees history is important to show a trend. But it means nothing without a solid trigger event for termination that places all blame on the employee. Any partial blame on the employer and the courts will almost always side with the employee.

In the first case Ms Lewis's trigger point was a swear word. If WJ is found to have any responsibility in creating the frustration that led to the word? The courts will very likely side with her.

In the second case the trigger is a missed meeting and a resulting claim of abandonment. Again if WJ is found to have been unreasonable in their demand for a meeting considering the employees health? The courts will very likely side with him.

The two cases look similar in that both appear, from reading, to be HR gaffs. If these employees really deserved to be terminated, HR looks to have picked questionable trigger events to justify termination. Hence the litigation.

I also note the timeline for the two cases is prior to WJ announcing an overhaul to its HR department.

I very much doubt either of these will see the inside of a court. They will get settled quietly with non disclosure statements. We will never know the truth or how it was settled.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Sun May 29, 2016 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
43S/172E
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by 43S/172E »

Fanblade +1

It will be very interesting if the person who has been diagnosed with mental illness had this condition before his alleged financial issues.

I would hazard a guess friend brooks is not known for critical thinking by his previous pedestrian vapid postings
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brooks
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by brooks »

Keep leaving out that corporate fraud note there Fanblade. Do you think it's cool to take over $12,000 for a move to a new base then never move? Or how about the 3 employees he took money from? How about falsely representing the company for his own personal gain?
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by sportingrifle »

brooks wrote:
The joys of a non-unionized environment, you actually get held accountable for your actions.

Actually brooks, the current brand damage to WJ is in part due to their lack of a union coupled with their apparently clueless HR department. I work in a very unionized environment with an HR department staffed with really smart lawyers. While it has not always been the case, the union and company work very cooperatively and effectively together to prevent these sort of [personal issues from blowing up.
My guess is that had Ms. Lewis's case occurred at my place of employment, she would not have been stonewalled to the point where she felt the need to send an overly strong but quite justified email to get information that she was legally entitled to. Our HR department has very fair steps in place for dealing with these kinds of issues and the union would ensure that they were followed.
And I would also hazard a guess that had Mr. Kippen been employed by my employer, the union run, company funded, Employee Assistance Program would have pulled him off the line and got him the help he needed before this also blew up. These cases are really making me appreciate where I am now. I also wouldn't be surprised if at the arbitration's, the management conduct of WJ gets compared to what would have been expected at other airlines.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by brooks »

Sure unions can be beneficial to some degree, but I don't think a union would have made a lick of difference in any of these cases.

Again, keep leaving out the Mr Kippen defrauding WestJetters out of their hard earned money.
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Fanblade
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Fanblade »

brooks wrote:Keep leaving out that corporate fraud note there Fanblade. Do you think it's cool to take over $12,000 for a move to a new base then never move? Or how about the 3 employees he took money from? How about falsely representing the company for his own personal gain?
Brooks,

I'm sure you meant allegation of fraud. Right? I say that because I know just how balanced your perspective usually is.

Even WJ's definition of fraud, within the statement of defence, states that fraud is a deliberate attempt to deceive. Many would define it as lying to get something you would otherwise not get. In this case you need to determine if the plaintif deliberately attempted to deceive. Did he? Or did circumstances simply over come him that prevented the move or repayment of money?

I doubt this would be considered fraud by just about anyone. You would need to prove he never intended to move right from the beginning. Doubtful.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Old fella »

brooks wrote:Sure unions can be beneficial to some degree, but I don't think a union would have made a lick of difference in any of these cases.

Again, keep leaving out the Mr Kippen defrauding WestJetters out of their hard earned money.
Ok.... fair enough. Guess we will hear Mr. Kippen's side of the story (defrauding Westjetters) in a court of law - there is always another side. Also those Westjetters who were involved in the Kippen's fraud allegations will be subject to subpoena no doubt to give their account of what transpired and will be subject to cross-examination as well. Uncomfortable scenario needless to say, however that(court) is where guilt and innocence is decided. Then again as I and others postulated, it may never get that far………
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brooks
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by brooks »

Oh ya, there's always another side of the story. Especially when said WestJetters have their own civil suit against Mr Kippen.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Arctic84 »

brooks wrote:Oh ya, there's always another side of the story. Especially when said WestJetters have their own civil suit against Mr Kippen.
How about a link to the documentation Brooks. I wasn't aware of any civil suits against him. Where's it filed.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Old fella »

brooks wrote:Oh ya, there's always another side of the story. Especially when said WestJetters have their own civil suit against Mr Kippen.
Yes, there always is two sides of the story - Plaintiff and Defendant. I mean we are talking about a court of law, are we not.

By your leave..........
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Last edited by Old fella on Mon May 30, 2016 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by tailgunner »

Brooks,
Seems to me that each of the "Westjetters" who lost money need to carry a huge degree of responsibility. They each GAVE this person money on the hope /expectation of a reasonable, and I would guess profitable, return. Who does this without investigating the background story or business plan?
I think they may have been swayed by the promise of profitable returns...., " a fool and his money are easily parted"
Cheers.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by True North »

Fanblade wrote:In Canada it is exceedingly difficult to terminate someone's employment. Every I has to be dotted. Every T crossed. The employees history is important to show a trend. But it means nothing without a solid trigger event for termination that places all blame on the employee. Any partial blame on the employer and the courts will almost always side with the employee.

In the first case Ms Lewis's trigger point was a swear word. If WJ is found to have any responsibility in creating the frustration that led to the word? The courts will very likely side with her.

In the second case the trigger is a missed meeting and a resulting claim of abandonment. Again if WJ is found to have been unreasonable in their demand for a meeting considering the employees health? The courts will very likely side with him.

The two cases look similar in that both appear, from reading, to be HR gaffs. If these employees really deserved to be terminated, HR looks to have picked questionable trigger events to justify termination. Hence the litigation.

I also note the timeline for the two cases is prior to WJ announcing an overhaul to its HR department.

I very much doubt either of these will see the inside of a court. They will get settled quietly with non disclosure statements. We will never know the truth or how it was settled.
43S/172E wrote:Fanblade +1

It will be very interesting if the person who has been diagnosed with mental illness had this condition before his alleged financial issues.

I would hazard a guess friend brooks is not known for critical thinking by his previous pedestrian vapid postings
Simpletons. You should read the WHOLE statement of defence. Since you seem incapable I'll help you out. There wasn't "a missed meeting" there were multiple missed meetings and at no time has Mr Kippen produced documentation supporting his medical claim, despite repeated requests. It is simple enough to get a letter from your doctor stating why you are unfit to fly, but Mr Kippen has been unwilling, or unable to do so. Why do you suppose that is?

Then there is the issue of defrauding the company of moving expenses...
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Biff »

tailgunner wrote:Brooks,
Seems to me that each of the "Westjetters" who lost money need to carry a huge degree of responsibility. They each GAVE this person money on the hope /expectation of a reasonable, and I would guess profitable, return. Who does this without investigating the background story or business plan?
I think they may have been swayed by the promise of profitable returns...., " a fool and his money are easily parted"
Cheers.
And the lady who was subletting his apartment? Another "fool and his(her) money are easily parted"?

Really? From what I've read he sounds like a shyster. Unfortunately, as is often the case, some people are too trusting of those who will take advantage of that trust. Hopefully after this is all over this gentleman will not be able to swindle any more trusting "fools".
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Old fella »

Biff wrote:
tailgunner wrote:Brooks,
Seems to me that each of the "Westjetters" who lost money need to carry a huge degree of responsibility. They each GAVE this person money on the hope /expectation of a reasonable, and I would guess profitable, return. Who does this without investigating the background story or business plan?
I think they may have been swayed by the promise of profitable returns...., " a fool and his money are easily parted"
Cheers.
And the lady who was subletting his apartment? Another "fool and his(her) money are easily parted"?

Really? From what I've read he sounds like a shyster. Unfortunately, as is often the case, some people are too trusting of those who will take advantage of that trust. Hopefully after this is all over this gentleman will not be able to swindle any more trusting "fools".
Both plaintiffs(FA and this pilot) must be getting piss poor legal advice and representation by heading to court over their issues then
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Biff »

Old fella wrote:
Both plaintiffs(FA and this pilot) must be getting piss poor legal advice and representation by heading to court over their issues then
Perhaps it's a case of the lawyers not knowing the entire story or not doing the necessary due diligence before signing on to represent the plaintiffs. Perhaps in the pilots case the lawyer was as mesmerized by the plaintiff's story as the pilots who lent him money were mesmerized by his promises.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Fanblade »

True North wrote:
Fanblade wrote:In Canada it is exceedingly difficult to terminate someone's employment. Every I has to be dotted. Every T crossed. The employees history is important to show a trend. But it means nothing without a solid trigger event for termination that places all blame on the employee. Any partial blame on the employer and the courts will almost always side with the employee.

In the first case Ms Lewis's trigger point was a swear word. If WJ is found to have any responsibility in creating the frustration that led to the word? The courts will very likely side with her.

In the second case the trigger is a missed meeting and a resulting claim of abandonment. Again if WJ is found to have been unreasonable in their demand for a meeting considering the employees health? The courts will very likely side with him.

The two cases look similar in that both appear, from reading, to be HR gaffs. If these employees really deserved to be terminated, HR looks to have picked questionable trigger events to justify termination. Hence the litigation.

I also note the timeline for the two cases is prior to WJ announcing an overhaul to its HR department.

I very much doubt either of these will see the inside of a court. They will get settled quietly with non disclosure statements. We will never know the truth or how it was settled.
43S/172E wrote:Fanblade +1

It will be very interesting if the person who has been diagnosed with mental illness had this condition before his alleged financial issues.

I would hazard a guess friend brooks is not known for critical thinking by his previous pedestrian vapid postings
Simpletons. You should read the WHOLE statement of defence. Since you seem incapable I'll help you out. There wasn't "a missed meeting" there were multiple missed meetings and at no time has Mr Kippen produced documentation supporting his medical claim, despite repeated requests. It is simple enough to get a letter from your doctor stating why you are unfit to fly.
It is highly recommended that you make absolutely sure you know exactly what you are talking about when you start using words like simpleton.

Read paragraph 44 of the complainants submission. The Psychiatrist took about two weeks to respond to the request for a note. In the interim he was fired.

It is not "simple enough" to get to a psychiatrist in this country. Quite the opposite. It can take close to a year unless it is an emergency.

The mere fact that he saw a psychiatrist on short notice means he was in bad shape. Please start showing just a little compassion.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Old fella »

Biff wrote:
Old fella wrote:
Both plaintiffs(FA and this pilot) must be getting piss poor legal advice and representation by heading to court over their issues then
Perhaps it's a case of the lawyers not knowing the entire story or not doing the necessary due diligence before signing on to represent the plaintiffs. Perhaps in the pilots case the lawyer was as mesmerized by the plaintiff's story as the pilots who lent him money were mesmerized by his promises.
I understand what you are saying Biff, but not sure I agree. There is plenty of info in the public domain, actually from the Defendant (WJ) that suggests this pilot was nowhere near a model employee. I am sure this pilot's defense counsel did re-enforce the necessity to lay it all on the line the good/ugly and warts because it will be found out and your case will be in jeopardy. WJ is going to defend itself vigorously as it should, more important, it is their right. There will be some ugliness from both sides that will be exposed…… again I go back to out of court. Just my useless two cents worth of commentary as I have no bone in this fight, just following along
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by AirMail »

guy is clearly nuts. WS should do psyc evals for applicants. Discuss.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by porcsord »

Hypothetically speaking, if this makes it to court, where would one look up the court date, I'd love to be in the stands.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

Post by Airbrake »

AirMail wrote:guy is clearly nuts. WS should do psyc evals for applicants. Discuss.
Not being a specialist in anything, I don't know that it would provide any benefit at all.
Remember Williams from Trenton? He was under a microscope with the Military for years, they saw nothing to indicate his underlying issues.
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