Ex pilot sues Westjet

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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#26 Post by Fanblade » Sun May 29, 2016 12:16 pm

In Canada it is exceedingly difficult to terminate someone's employment. Every I has to be dotted. Every T crossed. The employees history is important to show a trend. But it means nothing without a solid trigger event for termination that places all blame on the employee. Any partial blame on the employer and the courts will almost always side with the employee.

In the first case Ms Lewis's trigger point was a swear word. If WJ is found to have any responsibility in creating the frustration that led to the word? The courts will very likely side with her.

In the second case the trigger is a missed meeting and a resulting claim of abandonment. Again if WJ is found to have been unreasonable in their demand for a meeting considering the employees health? The courts will very likely side with him.

The two cases look similar in that both appear, from reading, to be HR gaffs. If these employees really deserved to be terminated, HR looks to have picked questionable trigger events to justify termination. Hence the litigation.

I also note the timeline for the two cases is prior to WJ announcing an overhaul to its HR department.

I very much doubt either of these will see the inside of a court. They will get settled quietly with non disclosure statements. We will never know the truth or how it was settled.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#27 Post by 43S/172E » Sun May 29, 2016 12:31 pm

Fanblade +1

It will be very interesting if the person who has been diagnosed with mental illness had this condition before his alleged financial issues.

I would hazard a guess friend brooks is not known for critical thinking by his previous pedestrian vapid postings
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#28 Post by brooks » Sun May 29, 2016 8:25 pm

Keep leaving out that corporate fraud note there Fanblade. Do you think it's cool to take over $12,000 for a move to a new base then never move? Or how about the 3 employees he took money from? How about falsely representing the company for his own personal gain?
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#29 Post by sportingrifle » Sun May 29, 2016 8:31 pm

brooks wrote:
The joys of a non-unionized environment, you actually get held accountable for your actions.

Actually brooks, the current brand damage to WJ is in part due to their lack of a union coupled with their apparently clueless HR department. I work in a very unionized environment with an HR department staffed with really smart lawyers. While it has not always been the case, the union and company work very cooperatively and effectively together to prevent these sort of [personal issues from blowing up.
My guess is that had Ms. Lewis's case occurred at my place of employment, she would not have been stonewalled to the point where she felt the need to send an overly strong but quite justified email to get information that she was legally entitled to. Our HR department has very fair steps in place for dealing with these kinds of issues and the union would ensure that they were followed.
And I would also hazard a guess that had Mr. Kippen been employed by my employer, the union run, company funded, Employee Assistance Program would have pulled him off the line and got him the help he needed before this also blew up. These cases are really making me appreciate where I am now. I also wouldn't be surprised if at the arbitration's, the management conduct of WJ gets compared to what would have been expected at other airlines.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#30 Post by brooks » Sun May 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Sure unions can be beneficial to some degree, but I don't think a union would have made a lick of difference in any of these cases.

Again, keep leaving out the Mr Kippen defrauding WestJetters out of their hard earned money.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#31 Post by Fanblade » Mon May 30, 2016 1:50 am

brooks wrote:Keep leaving out that corporate fraud note there Fanblade. Do you think it's cool to take over $12,000 for a move to a new base then never move? Or how about the 3 employees he took money from? How about falsely representing the company for his own personal gain?
Brooks,

I'm sure you meant allegation of fraud. Right? I say that because I know just how balanced your perspective usually is.

Even WJ's definition of fraud, within the statement of defence, states that fraud is a deliberate attempt to deceive. Many would define it as lying to get something you would otherwise not get. In this case you need to determine if the plaintif deliberately attempted to deceive. Did he? Or did circumstances simply over come him that prevented the move or repayment of money?

I doubt this would be considered fraud by just about anyone. You would need to prove he never intended to move right from the beginning. Doubtful.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#32 Post by Old fella » Mon May 30, 2016 8:10 am

brooks wrote:Sure unions can be beneficial to some degree, but I don't think a union would have made a lick of difference in any of these cases.

Again, keep leaving out the Mr Kippen defrauding WestJetters out of their hard earned money.
Ok.... fair enough. Guess we will hear Mr. Kippen's side of the story (defrauding Westjetters) in a court of law - there is always another side. Also those Westjetters who were involved in the Kippen's fraud allegations will be subject to subpoena no doubt to give their account of what transpired and will be subject to cross-examination as well. Uncomfortable scenario needless to say, however that(court) is where guilt and innocence is decided. Then again as I and others postulated, it may never get that far………
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#33 Post by brooks » Mon May 30, 2016 10:14 am

Oh ya, there's always another side of the story. Especially when said WestJetters have their own civil suit against Mr Kippen.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#34 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 30, 2016 10:53 am

brooks wrote:Oh ya, there's always another side of the story. Especially when said WestJetters have their own civil suit against Mr Kippen.
How about a link to the documentation Brooks. I wasn't aware of any civil suits against him. Where's it filed.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#35 Post by Old fella » Mon May 30, 2016 11:26 am

brooks wrote:Oh ya, there's always another side of the story. Especially when said WestJetters have their own civil suit against Mr Kippen.
Yes, there always is two sides of the story - Plaintiff and Defendant. I mean we are talking about a court of law, are we not.

By your leave..........
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#36 Post by tailgunner » Mon May 30, 2016 11:29 am

Brooks,
Seems to me that each of the "Westjetters" who lost money need to carry a huge degree of responsibility. They each GAVE this person money on the hope /expectation of a reasonable, and I would guess profitable, return. Who does this without investigating the background story or business plan?
I think they may have been swayed by the promise of profitable returns...., " a fool and his money are easily parted"
Cheers.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#37 Post by True North » Mon May 30, 2016 12:31 pm

Fanblade wrote:In Canada it is exceedingly difficult to terminate someone's employment. Every I has to be dotted. Every T crossed. The employees history is important to show a trend. But it means nothing without a solid trigger event for termination that places all blame on the employee. Any partial blame on the employer and the courts will almost always side with the employee.

In the first case Ms Lewis's trigger point was a swear word. If WJ is found to have any responsibility in creating the frustration that led to the word? The courts will very likely side with her.

In the second case the trigger is a missed meeting and a resulting claim of abandonment. Again if WJ is found to have been unreasonable in their demand for a meeting considering the employees health? The courts will very likely side with him.

The two cases look similar in that both appear, from reading, to be HR gaffs. If these employees really deserved to be terminated, HR looks to have picked questionable trigger events to justify termination. Hence the litigation.

I also note the timeline for the two cases is prior to WJ announcing an overhaul to its HR department.

I very much doubt either of these will see the inside of a court. They will get settled quietly with non disclosure statements. We will never know the truth or how it was settled.
43S/172E wrote:Fanblade +1

It will be very interesting if the person who has been diagnosed with mental illness had this condition before his alleged financial issues.

I would hazard a guess friend brooks is not known for critical thinking by his previous pedestrian vapid postings
Simpletons. You should read the WHOLE statement of defence. Since you seem incapable I'll help you out. There wasn't "a missed meeting" there were multiple missed meetings and at no time has Mr Kippen produced documentation supporting his medical claim, despite repeated requests. It is simple enough to get a letter from your doctor stating why you are unfit to fly, but Mr Kippen has been unwilling, or unable to do so. Why do you suppose that is?

Then there is the issue of defrauding the company of moving expenses...
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#38 Post by Biff » Mon May 30, 2016 5:31 pm

tailgunner wrote:Brooks,
Seems to me that each of the "Westjetters" who lost money need to carry a huge degree of responsibility. They each GAVE this person money on the hope /expectation of a reasonable, and I would guess profitable, return. Who does this without investigating the background story or business plan?
I think they may have been swayed by the promise of profitable returns...., " a fool and his money are easily parted"
Cheers.
And the lady who was subletting his apartment? Another "fool and his(her) money are easily parted"?

Really? From what I've read he sounds like a shyster. Unfortunately, as is often the case, some people are too trusting of those who will take advantage of that trust. Hopefully after this is all over this gentleman will not be able to swindle any more trusting "fools".
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#39 Post by Old fella » Mon May 30, 2016 5:55 pm

Biff wrote:
tailgunner wrote:Brooks,
Seems to me that each of the "Westjetters" who lost money need to carry a huge degree of responsibility. They each GAVE this person money on the hope /expectation of a reasonable, and I would guess profitable, return. Who does this without investigating the background story or business plan?
I think they may have been swayed by the promise of profitable returns...., " a fool and his money are easily parted"
Cheers.
And the lady who was subletting his apartment? Another "fool and his(her) money are easily parted"?

Really? From what I've read he sounds like a shyster. Unfortunately, as is often the case, some people are too trusting of those who will take advantage of that trust. Hopefully after this is all over this gentleman will not be able to swindle any more trusting "fools".
Both plaintiffs(FA and this pilot) must be getting piss poor legal advice and representation by heading to court over their issues then
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#40 Post by Biff » Mon May 30, 2016 7:46 pm

Old fella wrote:
Both plaintiffs(FA and this pilot) must be getting piss poor legal advice and representation by heading to court over their issues then
Perhaps it's a case of the lawyers not knowing the entire story or not doing the necessary due diligence before signing on to represent the plaintiffs. Perhaps in the pilots case the lawyer was as mesmerized by the plaintiff's story as the pilots who lent him money were mesmerized by his promises.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#41 Post by Fanblade » Tue May 31, 2016 12:36 am

True North wrote:
Fanblade wrote:In Canada it is exceedingly difficult to terminate someone's employment. Every I has to be dotted. Every T crossed. The employees history is important to show a trend. But it means nothing without a solid trigger event for termination that places all blame on the employee. Any partial blame on the employer and the courts will almost always side with the employee.

In the first case Ms Lewis's trigger point was a swear word. If WJ is found to have any responsibility in creating the frustration that led to the word? The courts will very likely side with her.

In the second case the trigger is a missed meeting and a resulting claim of abandonment. Again if WJ is found to have been unreasonable in their demand for a meeting considering the employees health? The courts will very likely side with him.

The two cases look similar in that both appear, from reading, to be HR gaffs. If these employees really deserved to be terminated, HR looks to have picked questionable trigger events to justify termination. Hence the litigation.

I also note the timeline for the two cases is prior to WJ announcing an overhaul to its HR department.

I very much doubt either of these will see the inside of a court. They will get settled quietly with non disclosure statements. We will never know the truth or how it was settled.
43S/172E wrote:Fanblade +1

It will be very interesting if the person who has been diagnosed with mental illness had this condition before his alleged financial issues.

I would hazard a guess friend brooks is not known for critical thinking by his previous pedestrian vapid postings
Simpletons. You should read the WHOLE statement of defence. Since you seem incapable I'll help you out. There wasn't "a missed meeting" there were multiple missed meetings and at no time has Mr Kippen produced documentation supporting his medical claim, despite repeated requests. It is simple enough to get a letter from your doctor stating why you are unfit to fly.
It is highly recommended that you make absolutely sure you know exactly what you are talking about when you start using words like simpleton.

Read paragraph 44 of the complainants submission. The Psychiatrist took about two weeks to respond to the request for a note. In the interim he was fired.

It is not "simple enough" to get to a psychiatrist in this country. Quite the opposite. It can take close to a year unless it is an emergency.

The mere fact that he saw a psychiatrist on short notice means he was in bad shape. Please start showing just a little compassion.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#42 Post by Old fella » Tue May 31, 2016 5:34 am

Biff wrote:
Old fella wrote:
Both plaintiffs(FA and this pilot) must be getting piss poor legal advice and representation by heading to court over their issues then
Perhaps it's a case of the lawyers not knowing the entire story or not doing the necessary due diligence before signing on to represent the plaintiffs. Perhaps in the pilots case the lawyer was as mesmerized by the plaintiff's story as the pilots who lent him money were mesmerized by his promises.
I understand what you are saying Biff, but not sure I agree. There is plenty of info in the public domain, actually from the Defendant (WJ) that suggests this pilot was nowhere near a model employee. I am sure this pilot's defense counsel did re-enforce the necessity to lay it all on the line the good/ugly and warts because it will be found out and your case will be in jeopardy. WJ is going to defend itself vigorously as it should, more important, it is their right. There will be some ugliness from both sides that will be exposed…… again I go back to out of court. Just my useless two cents worth of commentary as I have no bone in this fight, just following along
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#43 Post by AirMail » Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:43 pm

guy is clearly nuts. WS should do psyc evals for applicants. Discuss.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#44 Post by porcsord » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:01 pm

Hypothetically speaking, if this makes it to court, where would one look up the court date, I'd love to be in the stands.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#45 Post by Airbrake » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:18 pm

AirMail wrote:guy is clearly nuts. WS should do psyc evals for applicants. Discuss.
Not being a specialist in anything, I don't know that it would provide any benefit at all.
Remember Williams from Trenton? He was under a microscope with the Military for years, they saw nothing to indicate his underlying issues.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#46 Post by Beaverskipper » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:12 pm

I've been a creeper for years but have to chime in on this one

I can't believe some of the things guys are saying about the 2 cases against WJ. I personally know the pilot and believe me he has been through hell these past few years and did and still suffers terrible depression issues.
I wouldn't judge too quickly guys these allegations are exactly that allegations !! I know for a fact that he had a company in alberta with 2 other WJ guys and with the 2008 - 9 economy there the company lost a lot of money . The so called borrowing personal money is bogus they all put money in the company was named KipNic for those Westjetters they will know who one of the partners was. DP called all those guys in 2014 asking them to make a complaint against Kippen. They refused ....

The hunt continued and many nights we talked for hours and his fears were realized when suddenly the benfits were gone and westjet wanted to bring him to a meeting without his lawyer or anyone from WPPA although WJPA could attend.
This was clearly to fire him even though he should still have been disabled and did not have a medical.

Too much detail for here and the courts will decide but on June 8 His family doctor called the OPP for fear that he would harm himself. He was involuntarily admitted to hospital and all firearms removed from his house.
My friend was in a terrible place and had been on depression meds since 2012 , there is no conspiracy to get money from WJ I've seen his letters to his doctors and the reports ....this man was sick.

Rather than offer help they continued to harass him , there are signs that Wj may have been involved in the raid on his property i( 10 OPP Swat team and 2 dogs all with battering rams and lots of adrenaline ) in mid July 2015. They were looking for bomb making materials even though Kippen was nowhere near being involved in the bomb threats against WJ.

Place was wrecked and he cleaned it up with some help from friends.

As for the law suit WJ came out with both barrels loaded with BS and did like they always do they tried to shift the blame back to the accuser.
They did the same with the Lewis case and continue to do it in the flight deck ... allegations of drug use , she was bipolar and ect.
She only was fired for swearing though guys , if you felt your daughters were being assaulted in the workplace and you kept getting blocked by the WJ old boys club wouldn't you have a few choice words for them . Id be livid if I was Lewis father or husband.
No matter what will be decided the company let the Captain get out of Dodge (Hawaii) even though there was an arrest warrant issued for him. They then let him fly only to certain spots where he wouldn't be put in jail.

This has to stop we are all pilots and some of the things happening are very disturbing and the only way to change most of this is to have a union separate from the management loving one the WJPA one is.

I personally know someone who is going through a terrible time now , divorce, financial issues and depression . This guy is so scared to go to management and tell them he's sick and needs time off to deal with those issues that he's flying as little as possible and trying to fix himself.
It used to be that PAT had power to not even disclose the pilots name for a few days till the dust settled but thats recently changed now Management needs a call from PAT with the pilots name and type of illness he will be off for......its scary Sh..


Cant wait for ALPA to move in myself !!
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#47 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:49 am

Whatever.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#48 Post by sarg » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:13 am

Beaverskipper wrote:I've been a creeper for years but have to chime in on this one

I can't believe some of the things guys are saying about the 2 cases against WJ. I personally know the pilot and believe me he has been through hell these past few years and did and still suffers terrible depression issues.
I wouldn't judge too quickly guys these allegations are exactly that allegations !! I know for a fact that he had a company in alberta with 2 other WJ guys and with the 2008 - 9 economy there the company lost a lot of money . The so called borrowing personal money is bogus they all put money in the company was named KipNic for those Westjetters they will know who one of the partners was. DP called all those guys in 2014 asking them to make a complaint against Kippen. They refused ....

The hunt continued and many nights we talked for hours and his fears were realized when suddenly the benfits were gone and westjet wanted to bring him to a meeting without his lawyer or anyone from WPPA although WJPA could attend.
This was clearly to fire him even though he should still have been disabled and did not have a medical.

Too much detail for here and the courts will decide but on June 8 His family doctor called the OPP for fear that he would harm himself. He was involuntarily admitted to hospital and all firearms removed from his house.
My friend was in a terrible place and had been on depression meds since 2012 , there is no conspiracy to get money from WJ I've seen his letters to his doctors and the reports ....this man was sick.

Rather than offer help they continued to harass him , there are signs that Wj may have been involved in the raid on his property i( 10 OPP Swat team and 2 dogs all with battering rams and lots of adrenaline ) in mid July 2015. They were looking for bomb making materials even though Kippen was nowhere near being involved in the bomb threats against WJ.

Place was wrecked and he cleaned it up with some help from friends.

As for the law suit WJ came out with both barrels loaded with BS and did like they always do they tried to shift the blame back to the accuser.
They did the same with the Lewis case and continue to do it in the flight deck ... allegations of drug use , she was bipolar and ect.
She only was fired for swearing though guys , if you felt your daughters were being assaulted in the workplace and you kept getting blocked by the WJ old boys club wouldn't you have a few choice words for them . Id be livid if I was Lewis father or husband.
No matter what will be decided the company let the Captain get out of Dodge (Hawaii) even though there was an arrest warrant issued for him. They then let him fly only to certain spots where he wouldn't be put in jail.

This has to stop we are all pilots and some of the things happening are very disturbing and the only way to change most of this is to have a union separate from the management loving one the WJPA one is.

I personally know someone who is going through a terrible time now , divorce, financial issues and depression . This guy is so scared to go to management and tell them he's sick and needs time off to deal with those issues that he's flying as little as possible and trying to fix himself.
It used to be that PAT had power to not even disclose the pilots name for a few days till the dust settled but thats recently changed now Management needs a call from PAT with the pilots name and type of illness he will be off for......its scary Sh..

Lets not forget that 2 of our family of WJ pilots took their own lives in the past 4 years .......lets hope they did not die in vain its time to wake up and stop management harassing you into closed meetings for dreamed up BS

Cant wait for ALPA to move in myself !!
Beaverskipper,

It's a pretty cheap tactic implying that either of the 2 pilots that took their lives was due to management harassment, are you willing to supply some proof?

As a close personal friend of one of those pilots, I am sickened that you're trying to use his memory as a union drive tool.

From my personal experience in dealing with the company during a family crisis they are nothing but supportive. Time off was not an issue, lot of support from both Dave P(CP) and PAT including covering extra time in counselling over the benefit plan limit
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#49 Post by Mach1 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:57 am

sportingrifle wrote: ... the current brand damage to WJ is in part due to their lack of a union coupled with their apparently clueless HR department. I work in a very unionized environment with an HR department staffed with really smart lawyers. While it has not always been the case, the union and company work very cooperatively and effectively together to prevent these sort of personal issues from blowing up.
My guess is that had Ms. Lewis's case occurred at my place of employment, she would not have been stonewalled to the point where she felt the need to send an overly strong but quite justified email to get information that she was legally entitled to. Our HR department has very fair steps in place for dealing with these kinds of issues and the union would ensure that they were followed.
And I would also hazard a guess that had Mr. Kippen been employed by my employer, the union run, company funded, Employee Assistance Program would have pulled him off the line and got him the help he needed before this also blew up. These cases are really making me appreciate where I am now. I also wouldn't be surprised if at the arbitration's, the management conduct of WJ gets compared to what would have been expected at other airlines.
I have some real issues with what you are saying here. Unions are many things, but a magical wand carrying cure all is not one of them. I had a friend in a union airline... (I just can't/won't tell you his story for the sake of a point. I'm just going to say things went badly for everyone involved....) So where, exactly, were your magical union wizards in all of this? I would suggest that you take off the rose coloured glasses for a while, and take a realistic look at what a union can and can not accomplish in the real world.
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Re: Ex pilot sues Westjet

#50 Post by Airbrake » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:44 pm

Beaverskipper wrote:


It used to be that PAT had power to not even disclose the pilots name for a few days till the dust settled but thats recently changed now Management needs a call from PAT with the pilots name and type of illness he will be off for.....

Lets not forget that 2 of our family of WJ pilots took their own lives in the past 4 years .......lets hope they did not die in vain its time to wake up and stop management harassing you into closed meetings for dreamed up BS
!!


Your comments about PAT and the horrible situation for 2 of our pilots are; uneducated and irresponsibly inaccurate.
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