WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

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altiplano
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#26 Post by altiplano » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:40 pm

True North wrote: They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.
LOL just like that refurb PC with windows 95 and a pentium processor you bought last year - guess it was on Future Shop when it turned out to suck @$$ - if you weren't such an apologist I'd say you were naive.

Used airplanes are used airplanes for a reason - I know AC wouldn't touch those airplanes and they are an established 767 operator.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#27 Post by True North » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:20 pm

complexintentions wrote:This is an unsubstantiated rumour. There's no way anyone outside of higher management at either company knows the terms of a deal like this.
No, it's a statement of fact known by many well below "higher management". You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#28 Post by True North » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:21 pm

altiplano wrote:
True North wrote: They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.
LOL just like that refurb PC with windows 95 and a pentium processor you bought last year - guess it was on Future Shop when it turned out to suck @$$ - if you weren't such an apologist I'd say you were naive.

Used airplanes are used airplanes for a reason - I know AC wouldn't touch those airplanes and they are an established 767 operator.
You really should avoid posting when you've been drinking.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#29 Post by Realitychex » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:29 am

True North wrote:
complexintentions wrote:This is an unsubstantiated rumour. There's no way anyone outside of higher management at either company knows the terms of a deal like this.
No, it's a statement of fact known by many well below "higher management". You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.

Tell us about the "new to the fleet" AC 767 in heavy maintenance with corroded fuel tanks.

Last I heard, it was supposed to be in service right about now but won't even see a test flight for a long, long time.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#30 Post by altiplano » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:27 am

@ True North - it might hurt but it's true regardless of how much I'm drinking.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#31 Post by JBI » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:56 pm

altiplano wrote:
True North wrote: They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.
LOL just like that refurb PC with windows 95 and a pentium processor you bought last year - guess it was on Future Shop when it turned out to suck @$$ - if you weren't such an apologist I'd say you were naive.

Used airplanes are used airplanes for a reason - I know AC wouldn't touch those airplanes and they are an established 767 operator.
There's definitely an argument that WJ should have considered a different type of aircraft, but your analogy isn't accurate. It's not like WJ needed the newest and fanciest long haul equipment, it just needed something reliable to take its first steps in to the long haul market.

In your above example, it is more like a consumer going to HP and saying they don't need the mega fast gaming computer with all the bells and whistles, but they just want something reliable that will let them surf the net to read altiplano's latest pontifications, check Facebook and do some word processing. HP assured the consumer that refurbished computers that are a few years old with a warranty would work well to indeed have their mind blown by altiplano's groundbreaking conclusions, check Facebook and do some word-processing. Is it on the consumer or HP if things don't work out? From a legal contracts perspective, HP would be on the hook as it made representations to the consumer as to the suitability of purpose.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#32 Post by LittleNelly » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:27 pm

The problem isn't that the 767s they got turned out bad. It was that WestJet pushed the utilization too high. They thought they could have their cake and eat it too by running high utilization with older aircraft that need more maintenance, more often. They had no excuse not to know that they would not be able to maintain the schedule they planned. You can bet that AC, United, BA, etc.. dont push their 767 fleets as hard as their 787s.

Now that their utilization has dropped with the addition of the chartered one, its getting back to normal. Just poor planning, not bad planes.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#33 Post by JTrain » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:28 am

LittleNelly wrote:The problem isn't that the 767s they got turned out bad. It was that WestJet pushed the utilization too high. They thought they could have their cake and eat it too by running high utilization with older aircraft that need more maintenance, more often. They had no excuse not to know that they would not be able to maintain the schedule they planned. You can bet that AC, United, BA, etc.. dont push their 767 fleets as hard as their 787s.

Now that their utilization has dropped with the addition of the chartered one, its getting back to normal. Just poor planning, not bad planes.
Not poor planning or overutilization.

WS owns four B767s, and the schedule is based around having three doing the LGW flights so there is always a spare aircraft somewhere in the system. That being said, the range of the 767 flying is vast -from London to Vancouver- so knowing that the spare aircraft or reserve crews can't always be in the right place at the right time they went through the added expense of contracting with various ACMI carriers such as Omni or EuroAtlantic to have supplemental lift immediately available.

If anything, the initial hiccups in the 767 operation were due to bad luck and some other maintenance factors beyond WS' control. They are getting better on a daily basis - for the last month or so they are turning into a solid, reliable operation. It will only continue to trend in the right direction.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#34 Post by JTrain » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:31 am

Not just WS that this stuff happens to.

This week AC is the one getting the bad press.

----------------

Air Canada passengers stranded in U.K.

Canadian Press


TORONTO - Air Canada is taking heat on social media from passengers spending two unexpected days in Manchester, England.

The flight to Toronto was scheduled to leave on Friday, but Air Canada says the 197 passengers will have to wait until Sunday.

One person tweeted "horrendous experience. Stuck in Manchester for 2 days and no one has been in contact to tell us what's going on."

And another tweet to Air Canada said "A second night in Manchester ... due to more flight delays. AirCanada this is not how to treat your passengers."

An Air Canada spokeswoman called it an "unfortunate situation" caused by mechanical problems and crew duty restrictions.

Isabelle Arthur said on Saturday in an email that the airline will contact the passengers directly regarding compensation for having their travel plans disrupted.

"We have a team working around the clock behind the scene to ensure we can get them to their final destination as soon as it is safe to so do," she said.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#35 Post by JTrain » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:31 am

Maintenance issues happen to everyone. Two weeks ago WS was the internet villain, today it was AC, and next week it will probably be Transat's turn.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#36 Post by pianokeys » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:06 am

JTrain wrote:Maintenance issues happen to everyone. Two weeks ago WS was the internet villain, today it was AC, and next week it will probably be Transat's turn.
I like how this article made the front page of CBCs website. Then come the comments on FB. Everyone hates AC. WS is the best. Blah blah blah. The flying public makes me lose faith in humanity. Get over it and go fly Lion Air in Indonesia. Losers.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#37 Post by Old fella » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:42 pm

JTrain wrote:Maintenance issues happen to everyone. Two weeks ago WS was the internet villain, today it was AC, and next week it will probably be Transat's turn.
To right... just gets the WJ bashers and AC haters going
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#38 Post by Transonic » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:48 pm

fish4life wrote:What's the issue?
Gregg answered that question today in the Q2 call.

Ben Cherniavsky

And are you guys discussing like what would be any potential objection that pilots or anyone else are needing other WestJetters would have to expanding initiative at this point?

Gregg Saretsky

That’s a great question, we’re not sure why there would be objections, but I will tell you that there is a view among the pilots that they deals that they struck for the first four aircraft would not be reflective of what they would expect would be the deal for something that is anything other than an experiment.

So we’re in this waltz now around what might that look like, if it’s no longer an experiment than it has to continue to provide economics that make it in our best interest to expand that fleet. So if we can’t come the terms on what those economic need to look like than there will be no expansion of that fleet, it’s simple at that. And I’m hoping that we’ll get to an engagements that results in a good answer for all WestJet including our pilots.


Transcript at
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3991779 ... art=single
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#39 Post by fish4life » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:29 am

So what I gather from that is the pilots made an agreement with lower pay during the roll out and now that they want to expand the fleet the pilots want more pay and Greg is saying they won't buy more airplanes if the pilots get paid more?
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#40 Post by watermeth » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:21 am

it works better backwards.
:wink:
if it’s no longer an experiment than it has to continue to provide economics that make it in our best interest to expand that fleet.
And I’m hoping that we’ll get to an engagements that results in a good answer for all WestJet including our pilots.
So if we can’t come the terms on what those economic need to look like than there will be no expansion of that fleet, it’s simple at that.
bigger aircraft, same pay ; one would assume.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#41 Post by PositiveRate27 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:21 pm

Aka WS wants to upgage to the 787 and pay the pilots the same
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#42 Post by complexintentions » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:09 am

True North wrote:
complexintentions wrote:This is an unsubstantiated rumour. There's no way anyone outside of higher management at either company knows the terms of a deal like this.
No, it's a statement of fact known by many well below "higher management". You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.
Well, whether Boeing supposedly kicked in some compensation or not the new operation took a big chunk out of the bottom line. Really, I don't care how you spin it or who you want to blame, it's just the way it is. The B767 rollout was executed terribly. Hopefully it will become better, it seems to be slowly doing so.
WestJet said it now expects full-year cost per available seat mile, excluding fuel and employee profit share, to rise 2.5 to 3.5 per cent. This is above the previous forecast of 0.5 to 2.5 per cent due to “guest experience costs” and maintenance expenses associated with the London routes, said chief financial officer Harry Taylor.
http://business.financialpost.com/news/ ... costs-rise

I'm sure realitychex will be along shortly to explain how a 40% drop in profit is a good thing or "business as usual" or whatever.

I have no interest in seeing WestJet fail. But sometimes it's best to acknowledge your own fallibility and move on instead of trying to pass the buck.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#43 Post by altiplano » Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:09 am

Cherniavsky is a WS corporate puppet and that question was likely a plant to give GS a chance to pass a message indirectly to the pilots without having to bring it up himself.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#44 Post by Realitychex » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:59 pm

altiplano wrote:Cherniavsky is a WS corporate puppet and that question was likely a plant to give GS a chance to pass a message indirectly to the pilots without having to bring it up himself.
Cherniavsky is as critical about WS's foibles as anyone else. Perhaps the better question is why Ben is apparently not permitted on AC conference calls?

No one, including WJ itself, is patting themselves on the back for a flawless 767 roll-out. However, BC recognizes that WS's unit cost advantage continues to give WJ a huge advantage in the marketplace.

Lest anyone forget, it was Cherniavsky who alerted the markets that the UK and now Europe was in a yield meltdown 3 months ago. The problem escalated about 3 weeks ago when a number of yield bastion markets that have NEVER been available on a one-way discounted basis suddenly were being fire saled during the busiest travel season of the year.

For example, when one-way n/s fares on YVR-LHR tomorrow, July 31st, during the busiest travel period of the year, are c$525 compared to $1,628 from at least January 2016 through the end of June, there's probably a problem. British Airways are still holding to premium one-way fares, ($1,683). The cheapest one-way fare from SEA to LHR tomorrow is c$2,533. That's what happens when airlines don't flood the market with capacity.

YYC-YUL-BCN on AC next Weds is $2,100. Why pay that when you can fly YYC-LHR on AC for $497 and then fly Iberia or Veuling from LHR to BCN for under $200. Tough choice. $2,100 or $697? What would you do? Both are one-stop flights.

There are virtually countless examples of this sort of thing, to and from all markets in North America and Europe. It has gotten progressively worse this month compared to last, (ie, in the 3rd quarter), as more markets have been opened to discounting, one of the latest being FRA. There are more.

It doesn't take people very long to figure this sort of stuff out. As it occurs, the uptake becomes almost exponential as people talk to people, word spreads about the crazy deals and the discounting starts to spread like a run in the wife's nylons during the period of highest demand when fares should be at an absolute premium.

Add them all up and their impact on rasm and it paints a very troubling picture on the TATL this summer and into the future. It's not as if it can be made up by filling more seats. The TATL ran at 88% last summer. Lest anyone forget, the TATL has been an enormous source of profitability for legacy airlines in the peak summer years for as long as TATL air travel has ever existed.

WJ's 2Q numbers weren't great, but consider that WJ's 2Q has traditionally been their worst quarter for a decade or more as they transition from their winter "north-south" schedule to their summer "east-west" schedule and they incurred some pretty significant strategic growth pains in the quarter. I doubt we'll ever know the true costs of what they incurred over the first 8 weeks of the LGW program. It was undoubtedly a very large chunk of change.

2Q has always been Air Canada's 2nd best quarter and their growth has been of the easy variety. For example, adding Lyon to the network, just 25 miles further than the existing YUL-GVA operation, or Warsaw, 370 miles further than YYZ-FRA, using existing or brand new equipment with long established infrastructure isn't a big stretch.

Adding a new fleet type, (B767-300's) and operating it into utterly new markets, (LGW), the closest of which is 3,500 miles from home is a very different kettle of fish, but a challenge WJ needs to overcome if the airline is to move into different geographic realms. No one said it was going to be easy in the short term.

As was the case with Norwegian's TATL roll out, their were some significant burps but they ultimately settle down. OTP has been pretty good now for a little over 3 weeks. WJ is having no issues filling its TATL capacity. Flights are regularly sold-out and often can't be booked on-line.

I'd say this is all unfolding pretty much as predicted.

Now it's up to the pilots to come to terms on a long term deal for WJ WB growth, without which I'd estimate the odds of further expansion, or even replacement of the existing WB fleet are somewhere between slim and none.

8)
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#45 Post by Shady McSly » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:00 am

Don't worry, ALPA will figure all that out.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#46 Post by Squid » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:58 am

Wouldn't hold my breath there. they aren't exactly helping with much these days at the shops. Transat comes to mind. Post of the year btw.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#47 Post by rudder » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:28 am

Squid wrote:Wouldn't hold my breath there. they aren't exactly helping with much these days at the shops. Transat comes to mind. Post of the year btw.
Are you kidding?

ALPA membership gets you IFALPA membership. And if you ever find yourself in an accident or locked up in a foreign country I am certain that you will appreciate the resources that are made available.

But don't let that stop you from clinging to the notion that your employer will take care of you.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#48 Post by Squid » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:25 pm

you talk like they are the only ones that will help...many associations and companies can and will step up. Ironically IFALPA will likely assist (or offer to assist) as do other associations and companies/crew in crisis or that have accidents no matter the rep model. they aint the end all be all...that’s the point for shady.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#49 Post by rudder » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:14 am

Squid wrote:you talk like they are the only ones that will help...many associations and companies can and will step up. Ironically IFALPA will likely assist (or offer to assist) as do other associations and companies/crew in crisis or that have accidents no matter the rep model. they aint the end all be all...that’s the point for shady.
Professional courtesy? Possibly. You just keep ticking 'NO' on your ballot. I am sure that everything will be OK......
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#50 Post by George Taylor » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:55 am

rudder wrote:
Squid wrote:Wouldn't hold my breath there. they aren't exactly helping with much these days at the shops. Transat comes to mind. Post of the year btw.
Are you kidding?

ALPA membership gets you IFALPA membership. And if you ever find yourself in an accident or locked up in a foreign country I am certain that you will appreciate the resources that are made available.

But don't let that stop you from clinging to the notion that your employer will take care of you.
How's ALPA working for the Transat pilots in Scotland ?
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