WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

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yycflyguy
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#76 Post by yycflyguy » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:49 am

Radcap442 wrote:You really have no idea. If all you can do is try and stir, dont bother. The program is just fine, top notch management on the 767, all the support we need. I am having a great time
So nobody gets tired doing 6 or 7 crossings a month with no augment?
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#77 Post by Old fella » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:10 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Radcap442 wrote:You really have no idea. If all you can do is try and stir, dont bother. The program is just fine, top notch management on the 767, all the support we need. I am having a great time
So nobody gets tired doing 6 or 7 crossings a month with no augment?
That would tire me out as a passenger, let alone flying the thing...............
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#78 Post by outflying8 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:56 am

As far as the flying itself, with so much automation, most of the flight is not exherting, there are a lot of smaller things like altitude changes or vectors, changing frequencies but nothing major really until arrival/departure in which case is similar to most every other flight... the flight crew (pilots) may also take place in whats called a controlled rest (sleep on the flight deck- one at a time obviously)......the worst part of doing that leg by far is the time zone hopping....trying to sleep at 3 in the am when your body thinks it is really 8pm is quite a challenge....also why all the layovers there for crew are minimum 24 hours....the biggest issue with the 67s is that they came with some issues after Boeing guaranteed they would be good to go. I dont recall reading anything but I would be shocked if WestJet didn't sue boeing for loss of income and expenses of repairs
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#79 Post by snag » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:28 am

Whoa..hold on a sec.

The pilot exits the cockpit while a flight attendant stays in the flight deck for the duration of the controlled rest period?
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#80 Post by av8ts » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Relief F/a's at half the cost of a relief pilot.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#81 Post by outflying8 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:02 pm

snag wrote:Whoa..hold on a sec.

The pilot exits the cockpit while a flight attendant stays in the flight deck for the duration of the controlled rest period?

Yes sir, whichever pilot is not taking the rest obviously still maintains control of the aircraft(monitors the AP and related systems),the FA is there more for safety in case something happens, also for accountability.....

Once the controlled rest is over the pilots will quite often trade places.

EDIT** this was not correct I apologize, the pilot may exit the flight deck (a FA takes their place while absent) but NOT for the controlled rest period, I have posted the regulation below that details the controlled rest
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#82 Post by ckl » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:11 pm

I believe Canadian regulations require the resting flight crew member must be on the flight deck for controlled rest.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#83 Post by outflying8 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:27 pm

I believe Canadian regulations require the resting flight crew member must be on the flight deck for controlled rest.
You are correct sir:
(4) Rest Period

(a) Only one flight crew member at a time shall rest and the other flight crew member(s) shall remain alert. An alertness monitor may be considered as a back-up system;
(amended 1998/03/23)
(b) The resting flight crew member's duties shall be completed by the non-resting flight crew member(s);
(amended 1998/03/23)
(c) All flight crew members shall remain on the flight deck throughout the rest period;
(d) Each rest period shall be limited to a maximum of 45 minutes to avoid sleep inertia when the flight crew member is awakened;
(e) Rest periods shall occur only during the cruise phase of the flight and shall be completed at least 30 minutes before planned top of descent, workload permitting; and
(f) If required, more than one sleep opportunity may be taken by the flight crew members.
Source : https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 0-2153.htm

The regulation for FA to be in the cockpit is used when a pilot must exit the flight deck for whatever reason (stretching legs, bathroom etc...) I do know that on the 767 they have a segregated crew rest area, I guess it is for flights with either a 3rd air crew member (flights over 8 hours) or a second air crews (flights over 12 hours) or for flight attendants maybe....European companies may not be subject to our regulations either not sure the legalities of that.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#84 Post by TheStig » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:06 am

outflying8 wrote: I do know that on the 767 they have a segregated crew rest area, I guess it is for flights with either a 3rd air crew member (flights over 8 hours) or a second air crews (flights over 12 hours) or for flight attendants maybe....European companies may not be subject to our regulations either not sure the legalities of that.
outflying8, please stop posting about matters which you are clearly not familiar with. WJ and AC's B767 do not have crew rest bunks as they are not required due to the fact that under the CAR's 2 pilots are capable of operating duty days up to 14 hours, Air Canada has contractual augment provisions beyond what the CAR's requires. The frequency of North Atlantic crossings that the Transat, WJ and AC wide body crews make over the summer time makes their jobs pretty tiring despite what you may believe about automation or controlled rest.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#85 Post by outflying8 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:32 am

TheStig wrote:
outflying8 wrote: I do know that on the 767 they have a segregated crew rest area, I guess it is for flights with either a 3rd air crew member (flights over 8 hours) or a second air crews (flights over 12 hours) or for flight attendants maybe....European companies may not be subject to our regulations either not sure the legalities of that.
outflying8, please stop posting about matters which you are clearly not familiar with. WJ and AC's B767 do not have crew rest bunks as they are not required due to the fact that under the CAR's 2 pilots are capable of operating duty days up to 14 hours, Air Canada has contractual augment provisions beyond what the CAR's requires. The frequency of North Atlantic crossings that the Transat, WJ and AC wide body crews make over the summer time makes their jobs pretty tiring despite what you may believe about automation or controlled rest.

Please get your head out of your ass and read what im actually saying....I never said they have a crew rest bunk, they have a segregated crew rest area though comprised of a seat with a partioned curtain to give them privacy...the 8 hours was simply a generic time statement as 8 is the max for single-pilot IFR and may or may not be international/FAA standards (FAA i thought was 9 hours).....and the 14 hours doesnt detail the requirement of a rest area, just the max amount of hours may be flown by a split flight duty (I have attached the source for that underneath) not only have I been on one of WJ's 767s, my father is the captain on one of them, so maybe check your own facts, you are not God of the forum based on your responses (note that my source on my last post was directly from transport canada) you are quite ignorant and seek to police others.....and I know exactly how taxing it is on people AS I ALREADY SAID my father is captain and does the LGW trip multiple times a month, i know exactly how tiring it is
(5) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations in aerial application operations, the maximum flight duty time may be extended for a split flight duty assignment provided that:

(a) the total flight duty time shall not exceed 14 hours in 24 consecutive hours;
(amended 1998/03/23)
- https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 0-2153.htm
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#86 Post by yycflyguy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:42 am

:shock:
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#87 Post by GRK2 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:48 am

Do your parents know you are using Daddy's laptop? Time for all of Daddy's little Captains to go to bed...
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#88 Post by 43S/172E » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:48 am

YYCFLYGUY

Methinks you are dealing with someone whose knowledge of long haul aviation is described succinctly as anecdotal as opposed to factual.

Given a choice in following posted discussions your postings have more gravitas than the poster you are referring to.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#89 Post by culver10 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:08 am

they have a segregated crew rest area though comprised of a seat with a partioned curtain to give them privacy
This does not exist on the WJ767's. My dad does not fly them, but I maintain them.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#90 Post by Arctic84 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:27 am

There is no crew rest area of any kind. There are no plans to install one.

There is no augmented crew. There is no plan augment them as long as the CARs remain lame assed.

Who doesn't love a 14 red eye.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#91 Post by fish4life » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:35 am

Well MY DAD is an astronaut and thinks our duty days are too relaxed and we are wimps he is up there doing 6 months straight of flying with no days off... :roll:
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#92 Post by TheStig » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:45 am

outflying8 wrote:
Please get your head out of your ass and read what im actually saying...
I'll do that, time being, please mind your language. What I was writing must have come across wrong. My issue with your comments was the assertion that automation and controlled rest make the job easy. It isn't.

If your reaction to someone telling you that you're incorrect is to start name calling...I'm not sure sure what to tell you...good luck With life.

I hope your Dad is enjoying his time on the 767, I enjoyed every second of my time on it.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#93 Post by lazyeight » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:04 pm

Hey OutFlying, do you have a pilots license? Or do you just go off of whatever daddy tells you. Hows that ATC application going these days?

Leave the flying to the pilots.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#94 Post by outflying8 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:34 am

lazyeight wrote:Hey OutFlying, do you have a pilots license? Or do you just go off of whatever daddy tells you. Hows that ATC application going these days?

Leave the flying to the pilots.

I have my PPL, why dont you leave talking to the adults and grow up?
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#95 Post by lazyeight » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:09 am

Oh.. Burn. :lol:
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#96 Post by CAL » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:20 am

I dont know whats more dangerous sleeping pilots or an FA holding is ummmm hand 8)

Not sure what the argument is here...its well within the 14 hours......not saying that its right! but its within the rules right?
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#97 Post by watermeth » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:44 am

because it's in the rules doesn't mean it's not tiring.
mind you : coming back from Europe with a morning departure, even thought it's day light, your body is telling you it's still the middle of the night and you just walk up at 3/2am Canadian time and even earlier if you live in yyc/yvr.
14hrs duty time at night is tiring even if within the rules.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#98 Post by Eric Janson » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:52 pm

watermeth wrote:14hrs duty time at night is tiring even if within the rules.
My company also used to fly long, night 2 Pilot flights.

Then a representative from the National CAA went along on one of these flights as an observer....

Now we operate anything over about 10 hours with 3 Pilots and a crew rest area. Much better and it gives a lot more operational flexibility. My company also qualifies all Captains to operate from the right seat as PNF only. Not unusual for us to operate flights with 3 Captains or 2 Captains and a First Officer.
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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#99 Post by Colibri » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:16 am

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Re: WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

#100 Post by TheStig » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:28 am

Still blaming some mid-western MRO for all their problems.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/w ... -1.3788113
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