Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

[Fanblade]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple.

Race to the bottom. Transat tells their pilots we need you the lowest. Then AC moves to demand the lowest. Then sunwing. Then WJ. Then Transat again and the cycle continues.

CEO's are like competitive athletes. The drive to compete or have an advantage over an opponent is intense. They will play it on the employees backs if we don't stop them. We are simply the easiest target. Low hanging fruit.

From a former insider, you heard it straight from his mouth. You will always have to be the lowest paid.

ALPA's policy. Everyone the same pay. No company gets a competitive advantage from pilot wages. Remove pilots from the race to the bottom cycle.

Get your cost savings elsewhere.

[yycflyguy]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple.

Race to the bottom. Transat tells their pilots we need you the lowest. Then AC moves to demand the lowest. Then sunwing. Then WJ. Then Transat again and the cycle continues.

CEO's are like competitive athletes. The drive to compete or have an advantage over an opponent is intense. They will play it on the employees backs if we don't stop them. We are simply the easiest target. Low hanging fruit.

From a former insider, you heard it straight from his mouth. You will always have to be the lowest paid.

ALPA's policy. Everyone the same pay. No company gets a competitive advantage from pilot wages. Remove pilots from the race to the bottom cycle.

Get your cost savings elsewhere.

Well said. Pilot WAWCON does not make a difference in viability.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple.

Race to the bottom. Transat tells their pilots we need you the lowest. Then AC moves to demand the lowest. Then sunwing. Then WJ. Then Transat again and the cycle continues.

CEO's are like competitive athletes. The drive to compete or have an advantage over an opponent is intense. They will play it on the employees backs if we don't stop them. We are simply the easiest target. Low hanging fruit.

From a former insider, you heard it straight from his mouth. You will always have to be the lowest paid.

ALPA's policy. Everyone the same pay. No company gets a competitive advantage from pilot wages. Remove pilots from the race to the bottom cycle.

Get your cost savings elsewhere.

In 2015, my T4 from WJ was $377,000. Where on the bottom shall I take my seat, and how much bigger will ALPA policy make that T4?

[Radcap55]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple.

Race to the bottom. Transat tells their pilots we need you the lowest. Then AC moves to demand the lowest. Then sunwing. Then WJ. Then Transat again and the cycle continues.

CEO's are like competitive athletes. The drive to compete or have an advantage over an opponent is intense. They will play it on the employees backs if we don't stop them. We are simply the easiest target. Low hanging fruit.

From a former insider, you heard it straight from his mouth. You will always have to be the lowest paid.

ALPA's policy. Everyone the same pay. No company gets a competitive advantage from pilot wages. Remove pilots from the race to the bottom cycle.

Get your cost savings elsewhere.

So your saying AT 330 Pilots are paid the same as all the other 330 carriers? And that their B737 Pilots are paid the same as all other B737 Pilots? They are ALPA are they not? Thats ALPA's policy...you said so.

[altiplano]

my T4 from WJ was $377,000.

It had to come out from someone... So predictable.

[Fanblade]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple.

Race to the bottom. Transat tells their pilots we need you the lowest. Then AC moves to demand the lowest. Then sunwing. Then WJ. Then Transat again and the cycle continues.

CEO's are like competitive athletes. The drive to compete or have an advantage over an opponent is intense. They will play it on the employees backs if we don't stop them. We are simply the easiest target. Low hanging fruit.

From a former insider, you heard it straight from his mouth. You will always have to be the lowest paid.

ALPA's policy. Everyone the same pay. No company gets a competitive advantage from pilot wages. Remove pilots from the race to the bottom cycle.

Get your cost savings elsewhere.

So your saying AT 330 Pilots are paid the same as all the other 330 carriers? And that their B737 Pilots are paid the same as all other B737 Pilots? They are ALPA are they not? Thats ALPA's policy...you said so.

Policy is maybe the wrong word. It's a goal. It's a target.

Don't confuse ALPA C with ALPA.

ALPA in the US will not allow anyone to sign a contract below the going rate. Every group is expected to meet or exceed the going rate.

They can do this because just about everyone is represented by ALPA. As such they can slowly march the bar higher with each successive contract.

In Canada this is not the case. I believe however it needs to be, and that includes AC pilots. It also needs to be part of the greater ALPA group and not ALPA C. So far ALPA C has been allowed to run its own show and IMO unlikely to produce/ has not produced the same results.

Think about it. Had AC pilots been ALPA I doubt Rouge would have ever seen the light of day. Rouge wages are now putting downward pressure on WJ WB wages. Rouge 319 wages downward pressure on WJ 737 wages. Downward pressure on Transat wages. Why? Because AC pilots bought into the notion that we had to compete with other pilots. The second you buy into that, the lowest wage is the benchmark.

We need to stop this. We have made ourselves cost reduction targets by buying into the notion we need to be cheaper than the next guy. Instead we need to reach parity with each other. Removing ourselves from corporate crosshairs. Removing ourselves from CEO's seeking a competitive advantage using pilot wages.

[Radcap55]

im not confusing anything, WestJet is Canadian therefore is ALPA (not ALPA C as you put it) available?

[Fanblade]

im not confusing anything, WestJet is Canadian therefore is ALPA (not ALPA C as you put it) available?

My understanding is that it is on the table for us both.

[Realitychex]

You might want to take a look at this before pontificating as to why US carriers have the ability to offer fat contracts.

I'm sure both AC and WJ would have far more leeway if they were producing the same sort of profit margins as their US counterparts.

[Fanblade]

I wasn't asserting we get paid on par with companies South of the border. There are way too many variables that will always make our companies have less ability to pay. The way our government taxes air travel being the biggest.

I was saying we have to stop one downing each other. We need to seek parity with each other. We need to outright reject the notion we should be cheaper than the next guy.

[yycflyguy]

Do you have the same graph as it applies to European legacy carriers AF, BA, Lufthansa? You can't compare Allegiant, Alaska and Spirit to AC.

[watermeth]

so how come delta is able to generate a 28% op margin AND increasing pay ?
SouthWest 22% and they have the best paid pilots in the country (hear say) ?
jetblue is not far behind.

So, what's so specially different in Canada ?

[Fanblade]

So, what's so specially different in Canada ?

Some of the most expensive landing fees in the world. Airport improvement fees. Nav fees. Security fees. Fuel taxes. Parking fees. GST on top of it all.

Part of Alegiants business model is to operate just south of our boarder, out of airports with almost no fees and free parking, poaching Canadian travelers. The recent drop in the loonie has slowed this down.

Anyone trying to sell something is looking to price at the top of the yield curve. In Canada the government takes a much larger cut of that price than South of the boarder.

If anything we may see an even larger cut being removed my middle men, if JT privatizes airports through his infrastructure bank. It doesn't seem to matter which political stripe. Canadian governments have been unable to resist using aviation as an ATM.

This places our companies at a competitive disadvantage to those across the boarder. The result has to be felt somewhere. In this case lower wages and margins.

I doubt we will ever be able to make the same wages as a result.

[Fanblade]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

:

BS

In Q3 AC's and WJ's CASM were equal for the first time ever at 12.5 cents.

Why was that? What changed at AC?

1) Stage length - More international flights. You need WB's for that.

2) Densification - cram more seats in. WJ has already done that.

3) Upguaging - 777 is acquired and flys transcon. That frees up 2 320's to fly 190 routes. Frees up 2 190's to get parked. There are less AC flights YYZ-YVR today than 5 years ago but way more seats. AC costs on the route must be hammering a WJ 737.

WJ needs WB's to restore their CASM advantage. Stage length and upguaging will take care of it all on its own. WJ does NOT need cheaper pilots to get this done.

The WB's are coming regardless. Us spectators are just watching to see who blinks first.

Go Pilots!

[Longtimer]

So will WestJet add widebodies using WetLeases?

[Legacy]

This is a so full of BS. You can argue the company side till your face turns blue but pilot's wages are so miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Even one of WJ's previous EVP's was on record stating so. As it stands right now, WJ gets some of the cheapest pilots and by far the most productive. Put the salaries up and they still have the most productive. I have been told from a few on the inside that WJ's penalties in LGW cancellations/delays are in the mark of 5 million thanks to some quality 767s. There alone can give one heck of a lot of raises to the WB pilots. I won't even mention the amount of money that is wasted in other departments. So when I hear that pilot's salaries will break an airline it's hard not to shoot starbucks out my nose.

[Longtimer]

Legacy: can we assume that the attempt to unionize is back on?

[Legacy]

I would be guessing so. I'm not part of that organization group.

[Mostly Harmless]

It is interesting that giving the pilots a better salary will destroy a company... but this same discussion never occurs when it comes to executive compensation. When the executives pay comes up the conversation is turned to having to pay above market to attract the best talent. No one ever accuses the executives of bankrupting the company with their pay. But pilots... they will destroy the universe.

I propose that the argument is the same for both. If you want to attract the most talented pilots to ensure your operation is safe and efficient, you have to pay the best wages. If you can't afford to compensate the pilots with market rates, then you can't afford to compensate the executives with mark rates either.

Argue one or the other, but you cannot stand on both sides of this argument.

[Longtimer]

mostly harmless: your post does have merit but there is one major difference beween the Best / Most talented executive and the Best / Most Talented pilot. The executive will not sell his services for a discounted rate, pilots on the otherhand, unless they somehow become united, will continue to do so.