Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

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Fanblade
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Fanblade »

Radcap55 wrote:
Fanblade wrote:
Realitychex wrote:Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple.
Race to the bottom. Transat tells their pilots we need you the lowest. Then AC moves to demand the lowest. Then sunwing. Then WJ. Then Transat again and the cycle continues.

CEO's are like competitive athletes. The drive to compete or have an advantage over an opponent is intense. They will play it on the employees backs if we don't stop them. We are simply the easiest target. Low hanging fruit.

From a former insider, you heard it straight from his mouth. You will always have to be the lowest paid.

ALPA's policy. Everyone the same pay. No company gets a competitive advantage from pilot wages. Remove pilots from the race to the bottom cycle.

Get your cost savings elsewhere.

So your saying AT 330 Pilots are paid the same as all the other 330 carriers? And that their B737 Pilots are paid the same as all other B737 Pilots? They are ALPA are they not? Thats ALPA's policy...you said so.
Policy is maybe the wrong word. It's a goal. It's a target.

Don't confuse ALPA C with ALPA.

ALPA in the US will not allow anyone to sign a contract below the going rate. Every group is expected to meet or exceed the going rate.

They can do this because just about everyone is represented by ALPA. As such they can slowly march the bar higher with each successive contract.

In Canada this is not the case. I believe however it needs to be, and that includes AC pilots. It also needs to be part of the greater ALPA group and not ALPA C. So far ALPA C has been allowed to run its own show and IMO unlikely to produce/ has not produced the same results.

Think about it. Had AC pilots been ALPA I doubt Rouge would have ever seen the light of day. Rouge wages are now putting downward pressure on WJ WB wages. Rouge 319 wages downward pressure on WJ 737 wages. Downward pressure on Transat wages. Why? Because AC pilots bought into the notion that we had to compete with other pilots. The second you buy into that, the lowest wage is the benchmark.

We need to stop this. We have made ourselves cost reduction targets by buying into the notion we need to be cheaper than the next guy. Instead we need to reach parity with each other. Removing ourselves from corporate crosshairs. Removing ourselves from CEO's seeking a competitive advantage using pilot wages.
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Radcap55
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Radcap55 »

im not confusing anything, WestJet is Canadian therefore is ALPA (not ALPA C as you put it) available?
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Fanblade
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Fanblade »

Radcap55 wrote:im not confusing anything, WestJet is Canadian therefore is ALPA (not ALPA C as you put it) available?
My understanding is that it is on the table for us both.
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Realitychex
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Realitychex »

You might want to take a look at this before pontificating as to why US carriers have the ability to offer fat contracts.

I'm sure both AC and WJ would have far more leeway if they were producing the same sort of profit margins as their US counterparts.
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Fanblade
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Fanblade »

I wasn't asserting we get paid on par with companies South of the border. There are way too many variables that will always make our companies have less ability to pay. The way our government taxes air travel being the biggest.

I was saying we have to stop one downing each other. We need to seek parity with each other. We need to outright reject the notion we should be cheaper than the next guy.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by yycflyguy »

Do you have the same graph as it applies to European legacy carriers AF, BA, Lufthansa? You can't compare Allegiant, Alaska and Spirit to AC.
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watermeth
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by watermeth »

so how come delta is able to generate a 28% op margin AND increasing pay ?
SouthWest 22% and they have the best paid pilots in the country (hear say) ?
jetblue is not far behind.

So, what's so specially different in Canada ?
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Fanblade
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Fanblade »

watermeth wrote:
So, what's so specially different in Canada ?
Some of the most expensive landing fees in the world. Airport improvement fees. Nav fees. Security fees. Fuel taxes. Parking fees. GST on top of it all.

Part of Alegiants business model is to operate just south of our boarder, out of airports with almost no fees and free parking, poaching Canadian travelers. The recent drop in the loonie has slowed this down.

Anyone trying to sell something is looking to price at the top of the yield curve. In Canada the government takes a much larger cut of that price than South of the boarder.

If anything we may see an even larger cut being removed my middle men, if JT privatizes airports through his infrastructure bank. It doesn't seem to matter which political stripe. Canadian governments have been unable to resist using aviation as an ATM.

This places our companies at a competitive disadvantage to those across the boarder. The result has to be felt somewhere. In this case lower wages and margins.

I doubt we will ever be able to make the same wages as a result.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Fanblade »

Realitychex wrote:Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

:
BS

In Q3 AC's and WJ's CASM were equal for the first time ever at 12.5 cents.

Why was that? What changed at AC?

1) Stage length - More international flights. You need WB's for that.

2) Densification - cram more seats in. WJ has already done that.

3) Upguaging - 777 is acquired and flys transcon. That frees up 2 320's to fly 190 routes. Frees up 2 190's to get parked. There are less AC flights YYZ-YVR today than 5 years ago but way more seats. AC costs on the route must be hammering a WJ 737.

WJ needs WB's to restore their CASM advantage. Stage length and upguaging will take care of it all on its own. WJ does NOT need cheaper pilots to get this done.

The WB's are coming regardless. Us spectators are just watching to see who blinks first.

Go Pilots!
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Longtimer »

So will WestJet add widebodies using WetLeases?
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Legacy
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Legacy »

This is a so full of BS. You can argue the company side till your face turns blue but pilot's wages are so miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Even one of WJ's previous EVP's was on record stating so. As it stands right now, WJ gets some of the cheapest pilots and by far the most productive. Put the salaries up and they still have the most productive. I have been told from a few on the inside that WJ's penalties in LGW cancellations/delays are in the mark of 5 million thanks to some quality 767s. There alone can give one heck of a lot of raises to the WB pilots. I won't even mention the amount of money that is wasted in other departments. So when I hear that pilot's salaries will break an airline it's hard not to shoot starbucks out my nose.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Longtimer »

Legacy: can we assume that the attempt to unionize is back on?
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Legacy »

I would be guessing so. I'm not part of that organization group.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Mostly Harmless »

It is interesting that giving the pilots a better salary will destroy a company... but this same discussion never occurs when it comes to executive compensation. When the executives pay comes up the conversation is turned to having to pay above market to attract the best talent. No one ever accuses the executives of bankrupting the company with their pay. But pilots... they will destroy the universe.

I propose that the argument is the same for both. If you want to attract the most talented pilots to ensure your operation is safe and efficient, you have to pay the best wages. If you can't afford to compensate the pilots with market rates, then you can't afford to compensate the executives with mark rates either.

Argue one or the other, but you cannot stand on both sides of this argument.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Longtimer »

mostly harmless: your post does have merit but there is one major difference beween the Best / Most talented executive and the Best / Most Talented pilot. The executive will not sell his services for a discounted rate, pilots on the otherhand, unless they somehow become united, will continue to do so.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Dockjock »

It has been too easy for airlines to view pilots as an massive firehose connected to a bottomless ocean. Remember when a WJ captain was only guaranteed like $60K and you needed 5000hrs and 3 internals, and had to be able to tell a good joke without looking like a serial killer just to get in the door? The math is a lot different now but old habits die hard.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Realitychex »

Fanblade wrote:
Realitychex wrote:Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

:
BS

In Q3 AC's and WJ's CASM were equal for the first time ever at 12.5 cents.

:roll: Check out the respective asl's.....

Why was that? What changed at AC?

AC's avg stage length has increased from 909 miles in 3Q 2010 to 1,634 miles in 3Q 2016. Even with TATL flying, WJ's ASL has dropped from 962 miles to 907 miles over the same period.

The longer the flight, the lower the unit costs. The shorter the flight, the higher the unit costs.

Fuel was 66.9 a liter in 2010, it was 55.2 cents a liter last quarter.

The factory was operating at 100% capacity. The church was built for Easter Sunday. In Canada, Easter Sunday is July 1 to Sept 30. When Campbell's soup production line is operating at full capacity, and if all other variables are the same, the cost per can drops to it's lowest point. Slow down the production line and costs start to move up quickly again.

3Q 2015, AC's casm,, with 61.4 cent fuel, was 15.36 cents with 21.3b asm's flown. The next quarter, they flew 18.9b asms, fuel dropped to 58.6 cents and casm rose to 16 cents. Margins dropped almost 10% points quarter to quarter. Same thing happens every year.

1) Stage length - More international flights. You need WB's for that.

2) Densification - cram more seats in. WJ has already done that.

Max density in a 737-800 is 189. WJ has lots of room to go if that's a direction they choose.

3) Upguaging - 777 is acquired and flys transcon. That frees up 2 320's to fly 190 routes. Frees up 2 190's to get parked. There are less AC flights YYZ-YVR today than 5 years ago but way more seats. AC costs on the route must be hammering a WJ 737.

What do you think WJ's costs are on AC's asl of 1,634 miles? 12.5 cents? :lol:

What happens to AC's costs in 4Q and 1Q when roughly 20% of the fleet is idle or in maintenance? Probably the same thing that happens every year.

WJ needs WB's to restore their CASM advantage. Stage length and upguaging will take care of it all on its own. WJ does NOT need cheaper pilots to get this done.

The WB's are coming regardless.

No they are not. Bank on it. Take it from someone who knows how the Chairman thinks, and from a time long before WJ was a glimmer in anyone's eye.

Us spectators are just watching to see who blinks first.

Go Pilots!
See comments embedded above.

It's the pennies, ALL the pennies, that make the dollars.

Nothing would make union pilots happier than having WJ's costs soar resulting in the company getting into all kinds of trouble down the road, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that they are lobbying to have WJ be the second or third least costly bananas on the shelf.

Anyone around when C3000 hit the wall knows precisely how much the flight crew unions, who also represented those at other airlines, did for C3000.

Squat.

"Sayonara and good riddance C3000. Oh, and by the way, don't bother applying to Big Red, and if you get in, even with 20 years Captain experience, welcome to the bottom of the ladder with B scale pay".


8)
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sanjet
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by sanjet »

Realitychex wrote: Anyone around when C3000 hit the wall knows precisely how much the flight crew unions, who also represented those at other airlines, did for C3000.

Squat.

"Sayonara and good riddance C3000. Oh, and by the way, don't bother applying to Big Red, and if you get in, even with 20 years Captain experience, welcome to the bottom of the ladder with B scale pay".


8)
With all due respect Realitychex, c3000's demise was not because of unions. It was managements decision to acquire Royal aviation. They later sued the former owner (who also ran Jetsgo) for fraud and misrepresentation. They simply didn't do their homework before acquiring C3000, then came along September-11 which just drained their cash flow.
It's not the unions that shut down C3000, it was just a way to ensure the blame was deflected from management. Fleet grounding was inevitable, cashflow is king.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Realitychex wrote:
It's the pennies, ALL the pennies, that make the dollars.
All the pennies? Even the CEO's pay, the VP's pay and the Board's pay? Because they have given themselves some impressive raises in the last few years... and yet, never discussed.

Leadership is when you lead and others want to follow you. There is no leadership at WJ any more. There is management.
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Re: Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

Post by Mostly Harmless »

sanjet wrote:
With all due respect Realitychex, c3000's demise was not because of unions. It was managements decision to acquire Royal aviation. They later sued the former owner (who also ran Jetsgo) for fraud and misrepresentation. They simply didn't do their homework before acquiring C3000, then came along September-11 which just drained their cash flow.
It's not the unions that shut down C3000, it was just a way to ensure the blame was deflected from management. Fleet grounding was inevitable, cashflow is king.
Some excellent points there.

Entering full on rant mode:

Since ALL the pennies matter, how many millions have been lost to bad management decisions? I could list examples, but we all know what they are, so I will dispense with rehashing the past. Yet, no one ever seems to fall on the sword for wasting millions in bad decisions. Bad management has been the cause of more failed companies than employee wages ever will be.

Let's look at this like it's professional sports. I'm going to negotiate the best wage I can for my skills. The owners are going to negotiate the best deal they can to get me to work for them, without over paying me. If they over pay me, well that was a bad decision on their part. If I work for less than I am worth, well that's a bad decision on my part.

To blame the employees for destroying a company is a very far fetched argument. I'm sure it could happen but it's far more likely to be bad management that kills the place than over priced talent. Now, if you want to turn WJ into Air Canada of 10 years ago when moral was so low that the employee group took it out on the customer, you are on the right road to success. Having abandoned the principal of successful companies that; Look after the staff, they will look after the customer and the customer will look after the stock price; you have now entered the regime of shareholder value management. Whatever it takes to make the next quarter, collect a bonus and let someone else pick up the pieces. You no longer have a team wherein everyone shares the successes along with the failures, you no longer have a whole team to watch the pennies. You no longer have long term vision. Companies that employ shareholder value management don't last very long compared to companies that do not go down this road.

If WJ needs lower wages to be competitive, let the leaders take the first cut. Then you will see everyone follow.
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