Westjet Pilots Vote Against Expanding Widebody Fleet

[dialdriver]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3858528

[infiniteregulus]

Pilots voting down more pay?? There's obviously more to this story.

[hamstandard]

Does this mean Encore will get the 767's or perhaps a new airline spun off?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3858528

[atphat]

Betcha ol Greggy isn't too happy this am.

[Realitychex]

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple. There is absolutely no point going ahead adding capacity to become the second or third least expensive Cdn based WB operator. Had WJ gotten into the game on that strategic basis in 1996, it would have lasted about as long as 99% of all other startups.

If anyone is thinking or counting on the BoD cratering on this issue, going ahead and ordering WB's anyway, thus allowing the pilot group to put a gun to the head of management to get a deal, any deal, done is living in utter lala land.

CB will not allow it to happen. It's a mortal lock. Period. End of story.

I've run enough models for enough successful operations to have a good handle on how costs, all costs, impact the overall cost structure of any airline. Suffice it to say, there's a lot of misinformation out there on this issue. In the words of, in my opinion, one of the best airline CFO's in Canada over the past 30 years, "it's the pennies that make the dollars".

There's a nice little window of opportunity out there to get traction in this and other long haul marketplaces. That window has been handed over to a number of competitors for at least another season. In terms of new WB's at WJ, that probably meaningfully pushes things off to about 2020.

If I were at WOW, Norwegian or Icelandair, I'd be thanking my lucky stars and adding TATL capacity to Canada fast and furiously. You know. Sort of like Alaska did to Hawaii when Southwest was unable to get an agreement from its pilots to do the same.

We all know how that worked out for Alaska.

It's odd that the negotiating group was able to get a deal done, and then it was shot down in flames. There's obviously a pretty big disconnect somewhere.

Sometimes it's better to give a little in battles to win the wars.

[altiplano]

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

How much of the hourly operating cost of a 787 is pilot wages? Minimal.

My sources tell me the agreement was at a significant discount to both AC mainline and rouge rate - not to mention the lack of work rules, lack of pension, self paid benefits, etc...

Clearly they have a lot of room still in terms of being the lowest compensated.

If Westjet can't make the business case as the lowest cost operator, it's not the Pilot's fault.

I particularly like the sell job and urgency you place on the reader through the end of your post. If there is a nice little window of opportunity I'm sure Westjet will take it.

[Bede]

Realtychex,

As always, thanks for the insight. You are right, you want to be the lowest cost. However, getting these costs down in exchange for pilots losing their options is a non-starter for me.

I remember talking to Gregg years ago about the Thomas Cook flying tat Jazz did. WJ was offered the contract (according to him anyways). WJ turned it down because "it just wasn't worth our while to do it at the price they were offering." Same goes here. I'd love to see more wide bodies, but it's not worth my while at the price they want.

The sad thing about this (and many other things) is that things have changed significantly since you were here. We used to be all in this together. Then the culture changed and it was all about "what can I get out of this". That philosophy trickled down and now we're all just shewed businessmen who won't do anything unless there's a bunch of money in it for us. Sad, but we didn't start it.

[aerodude]

Deleted

[Transonic]

Thanks for your thoughts RealityChex, always great to see you here.

This is a massive disappointment from all sides. MOA#4 was endorsed by our pilot representatives, required 6 months of talks and then mediated by a third party mediator. The end result was voted down by 81%.

On a positive note, at least 81% of our pilots value their options and foresee great upside in our future.

[Realitychex]

Thanks for your thoughts RealityChex, always great to see you here.

This is a massive disappointment from all sides. MOA#4 was endorsed by our pilot representatives, required 6 months of talks and then mediated by a third party mediator. The end result was voted down by 81%.

On a positive note, at least 81% of our pilots value their options and foresee great upside in our future.

Put Clive in the room at 9:00am to negotiate a deal and the champagne corks would be popped by all at 3pm.

[Beach 200]

Thanks for your thoughts RealityChex, always great to see you here.

This is a massive disappointment from all sides. MOA#4 was endorsed by our pilot representatives, required 6 months of talks and then mediated by a third party mediator. The end result was voted down by 81%.

On a positive note, at least 81% of our pilots value their options and foresee great upside in our future.

Curious were you got your information from. I never heard these talks were mediated by a professional mediator. If it was those costs weren't shared to the WJPA pilot group. Unless they got someone internal to mediate it, but then that would be biased.

Fact is, pilots at Westjet weren't offered a pay raise. Only options taken away and that cost added to our pay rate. Wasn't a pay raise at all. They made it look that way. The pay scale for 767 pilots was a small increase but fell generously short of ACPA pilots flying for mainline or Rouge. Weather we get wide bodies or not at this point, who cares! Keeps us competitive and the airline going. The whole wide body trial is still a trial regardless if we got more frames or not. Routes do fail, economies change. Making money on international routes is far tighter than what we have here in North America doing what we are doing now. Sometimes I think all this wide body expansion is just some Ego thing of Saretsky's and a legacy for him to walk out the door with his head held high. Then leave the next guy to figure it out and us pilots to deal with in the future when we find out pay cuts or cost cutting is necessary etc.. it's all happened before!

[Mach1]

Realtychex,

As always, thanks for the insight. You are right, you want to be the lowest cost. However, getting these costs down in exchange for pilots losing their options is a non-starter for me.

I remember talking to Gregg years ago about the Thomas Cook flying tat Jazz did. WJ was offered the contract (according to him anyways). WJ turned it down because "it just wasn't worth our while to do it at the price they were offering." Same goes here. I'd love to see more wide bodies, but it's not worth my while at the price they want.

The sad thing about this (and many other things) is that things have changed significantly since you were here. We used to be all in this together. Then the culture changed and it was all about "what can I get out of this". That philosophy trickled down and now we're all just shewed businessmen who won't do anything unless there's a bunch of money in it for us. Sad, but we didn't start it.

I think that is well said and covers the point. Things have changed... and it wasn't the staff that changed them... in fact they started changing drastically about... oh I don't know... 5 years ago or so.

[Transonic]

Curious were you got your information from. I never heard these talks were mediated by a professional mediator. If it was those costs weren't shared to the WJPA pilot group. Unless they got someone internal to mediate it, but then that would be biased.

WJPA Forum

Forums Index » General » Comp and Benefits topics, questions and discussion » Delta has a new TA

Msg. 13 of 28 posted on: Oct 12, 2016 09:54 PM

[yycflyguy]

On behalf of all pilots in Canada, and especially at AC where we are heading into a re-opener, I'd like to congratulate Westjet pilots for voting down a contract that would further erode wide-body wages all under the ridiculous fatigue levels allowed under CARs. Delta (ALPA) just smashed it out of the park for their pilots with 18% retroactive and a cumulative raise of 30% with increases in profit sharing. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... union-says

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ.

It's that simple. There is absolutely no point going ahead adding capacity to become the second or third least expensive Cdn based WB operator. Had WJ gotten into the game on that strategic basis in 1996, it would have lasted about as long as 99% of all other startups.

If anyone is thinking or counting on the BoD cratering on this issue, going ahead and ordering WB's anyway, thus allowing the pilot group to put a gun to the head of management to get a deal, any deal, done is living in utter lala land.

CB will not allow it to happen. It's a mortal lock. Period. End of story.

Yeah. AC threatened the pilots with cancellation of 18 Boeing 777's and 14 Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft in 2005. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9639C8B63 They did but then renegotiated rates, I think it was the following year. So, just because it is voted down today does not mean it can't be explored again. If WJ wants 'em, they will get 'em. After Saretsky is removed is my guess.

[Realitychex]

When WJ starts producing the same sorts of margins as Delta, Alaska and others have south of the border over the last 36 months or longer, the company might be in the position to match that sort of largesse.

WJ continues to be well ahead of AC's margins, but is currently a country mile behind Delta and others.

I know a very senior Delta captain who is happy to take the money, but is under no illusions as to what the new contract will do to Delta's bottomline when oil reverts anywhere close to its previous levels.

We've seen this boom and bust countless times before.

I'd like to see options to continue to be part of the program for all. If the company does well over the long term, you do well. Raiding the goodwill piggy bank to prop up earnings to keep the bonus money flowing in is not the way to keep shareholders happy.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Dockjock]

Oil ain't going anywhere, they just found another 20billion barrels in something called the Wolfcamp shale in the Permian basin.

[yycflyguy]

When WJ starts producing the same sorts of margins as Delta, Alaska and others have south of the border over the last 36 months or longer, the company might be in the position to match that sort of largesse.

WJ continues to be well ahead of AC's margins, but is currently a country mile behind Delta and others.

I know a very senior Delta captain who is happy to take the money, but is under no illusions as to what the new contract will do to Delta's bottomline when oil reverts anywhere close to its previous levels.

We've seen this boom and bust countless times before.

I'd like to see options to continue to be part of the program for all. If the company does well over the long term, you do well. Raiding the goodwill piggy bank to prop up earnings to keep the bonus money flowing in is not the way to keep shareholders happy.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Economic prognostications aside, don't you think this is a statement by the troops that the Generals have lost the plot?

You have been a long time outspoken proponent for how rosy things are at WJ but now you are concerned about future bust cycle? As an employee that helped to build the success of the company, that is hard to swallow. Swimming in riches today yet unwilling to share the wealth equitably?

Big changes on the horizon for WJ both culturally and corporately.

[Old fella]

Oil ain't going anywhere, they just found another 20billion barrels in something called the Wolfcamp shale in the Permian basin.

It will if Trump over the course of his cycle, decided to step into the Mid-East in an unconventional way............

[Realitychex]

When WJ starts producing the same sorts of margins as Delta, Alaska and others have south of the border over the last 36 months or longer, the company might be in the position to match that sort of largesse.

WJ continues to be well ahead of AC's margins, but is currently a country mile behind Delta and others.

I know a very senior Delta captain who is happy to take the money, but is under no illusions as to what the new contract will do to Delta's bottomline when oil reverts anywhere close to its previous levels.

We've seen this boom and bust countless times before.

I'd like to see options to continue to be part of the program for all. If the company does well over the long term, you do well. Raiding the goodwill piggy bank to prop up earnings to keep the bonus money flowing in is not the way to keep shareholders happy.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Economic prognostications aside, don't you think this is a statement by the troops that the Generals have lost the plot?

You have been a long time outspoken proponent for how rosy things are at WJ but now you are concerned about future bust cycle? As an employee that helped to build the success of the company, that is hard to swallow. Swimming in riches today yet unwilling to share the wealth equitably?

Big changes on the horizon for WJ both culturally and corporately.

Read my post carefully, especially the comment about "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". Sharing the wealth was always a key proponent in the corporate philosophy and still should be.

A prosperous future is based on a having the lowest cost / most productive organization in Canada. If that slips and slides into oblivion, so to, ultimately, will the company.

There are probably another group like CB, DB, TM, MH and BL sitting in the wings salivating at the opportunity to do to WJ in 2018 what WJ did to CP and a slew of others starting in 1996.

Don't give them the opportunity.

[Mr. North]

I know a very senior Delta captain who is happy to take the money, but is under no illusions as to what the new contract will do to Delta's bottomline when oil reverts anywhere close to its previous levels.

Actually that Delta captain should hope for sky high oil prices. Delta after all owns an oil refinery which they purchased in 2012. Since then they've sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into it only to have oil prices where they are now. What was a hedge against oil volatility is now nothing but a huge albatross. That they are in such good financial shape despite this is even more impressive.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopher ... 6f8257113b