WestJet To Launch ULCC

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True North
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by True North » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:26 am

PositiveRate27 wrote:What you conveniently and I'm sure quite intentionally left out was the "min" part of his quote. Airlines without a minimum guaranteed credit per day can keep pilots in the hotel away from base for days without paying them. If you're at work, you should be getting paid, no? We aren't talking about "x amount per month." We are talking about "x amount of credits per flight hour." A trip is worth a certain amount of flying credits and those credits add up to a monthly pay cheque. If the company wants to keep me in a hotel for 37hrs that's fine. Don't call it a "day off" though. You can explain to my daughter why daddy gets to spend some of his minimum guaranteed days off in Saskatoon and not at home with her.
Are you trying to tell us that if you have a 37 hour layover, that is considered a "day off"?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by True North » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:31 am

Squid wrote:That's why we have seniority to avoid those sits even with trip n duty rigs or low credit blocks. If you are junior you can explain to your daughter when you sit in those hotels with credit or not that I don't have enough seniority to hold a good block. Not sure why that's hard to explain.
Says the senior pilot.

I'm sure the daughter will be much more understanding when you give her that explanation. :roll:
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PositiveRate27
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by PositiveRate27 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:04 am

Squid wrote:That's why we have seniority to avoid those sits even with trip n duty rigs or low credit blocks. If you are junior you can explain to your daughter when you sit in those hotels with credit or not that I don't have enough seniority to hold a good block. Not sure why that's hard to explain.

You may be arguing against proper representation but it's that kind of attitude that pushes the junior pilots towards it. "Who cares about your broke junior ass. Explain to your 4 year old daughter that by the time she is all grown up and out of the house you'll finally have the money and days off to spend with them..."

At places like Encore the junior pilot can absolutely NOT afford to deadhead or sit away from home all day not being paid.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Mostly Harmless » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:11 pm

I have been flying with a lot of... I'll say... angry guys lately. Some of it is legitimate concerns about working conditions, improving pay and quality of life. What I hate hearing, what really grates on my ears are:

Well, Air Canada has....
Well, over at Air Canada...
My Dad worked for Air Canada...

And I can't help but think, "Well, then why are you working here if you wanted to work at Air Canada?"

I'm not saying that WJ isn't in need of improvement... every company is, including Air Canada but, enough already.

Next up on my list of stuff I just have to vent about today...

But I want a pension...
Why do I have to keep my shares locked up for a year...
I want more money now...

Okay, take home pay sucks. But, they very carefully explained the pay to me when I was hired. Did they not do that with everyone? Did you guys not understand what you were signing up for? If you knew what you were signing onto, why did you say yes if you are so damned angry about it? I live a bit of a modest life, but I have a lot of savings and what we have now with the ESPP is going to make me a wealthy person by retirement... and it's my money, I control it if I want to save it or spend it all on hookers and blow. That's my choice. I get much better returns than anything a pension fund is doing these days...

As for the ULCC... all I have seen is speculation... no facts. Why don't we take it down from 11 on the volume levels to maybe a nice 6... and wait to see what they are going to throw on the table before we spend a whole pairing ranting about how angry you are.

Okay. I feel a little better now I've vented.... let's all have a nice relaxing breath and enjoy the day.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Realitychex » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:13 pm

groundpilot wrote:Oh RealityChex...

I've been eagerly waiting for your return after your posts about WJ taking over the international markets and the crumbling of AC.

B767s broken down and a recently cashed maxed out profit sharing cheque and you have returned!!!

Ah this time talks about how ALPA is an evil to WJ pilots and this ULCC is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I eagerly await for more of your brilliant posts because as a pilot you are an embarrassment to the occupation. You are exactly the reason pilots need unions to look out for their interests...

- min daily guarantees
- min pay for time away from base
- having cleaning staff clean the planes. Yes, pilots should be focused on the safety of flight. Not looking for left over coffee cups
- years of service

Keep up the posts...it has been entertaining!!
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by True North » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:14 pm

True North wrote:
PositiveRate27 wrote:What you conveniently and I'm sure quite intentionally left out was the "min" part of his quote. Airlines without a minimum guaranteed credit per day can keep pilots in the hotel away from base for days without paying them. If you're at work, you should be getting paid, no? We aren't talking about "x amount per month." We are talking about "x amount of credits per flight hour." A trip is worth a certain amount of flying credits and those credits add up to a monthly pay cheque. If the company wants to keep me in a hotel for 37hrs that's fine. Don't call it a "day off" though. You can explain to my daughter why daddy gets to spend some of his minimum guaranteed days off in Saskatoon and not at home with her.
Are you trying to tell us that if you have a 37 hour layover, that is considered a "day off"?
PositiveRate27,

Since you're ignoring the question I'm guessing this is more union propaganda BS, no?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Realitychex » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:15 pm

groundpilot wrote:Oh RealityChex...

I've been eagerly waiting for your return after your posts about WJ taking over the international markets and the crumbling of AC.

B767s broken down and a recently cashed maxed out profit sharing cheque and you have returned!!!

Ah this time talks about how ALPA is an evil to WJ pilots and this ULCC is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I eagerly await for more of your brilliant posts because as a pilot you are an embarrassment to the occupation. You are exactly the reason pilots need unions to look out for their interests...

- min daily guarantees
- min pay for time away from base
- having cleaning staff clean the planes. Yes, pilots should be focused on the safety of flight. Not looking for left over coffee cups
- years of service

Keep up the posts...it has been entertaining!!
I guess you haven't been following what has happened to the Canada to U.K. market over the past 12 months. A bit of a sea change. I recently spoke about it as well as larger TATL issues at a conference in NYC.

No one is going to argue that, operationally, WJ's TATL effort over the first six months was anything better than a C effort, and that might be a tad generous.

Had it been a stand alone, independent startup, I'm on record of having said it would have likely failed by about Sept last year.

However, from a commercial perspective, WJ has clearly proven the market is more than viable. Acquiring the right airframes for the long term is the issue.

As one who has been intimately involved in the fundamental creation of more than a few thousand pilot jobs over the past couple of decades in Canada, the US and elsewhere, I have a pretty good understanding of the big picture.

I'm not sure how following the same path that has rarely worked out for others will magically work this time around without a more enlightened and innovative approach.

Doing things differently is what made WJ a success in 1996 and beyond and that's what it'll take to continue that record moving forward.

Think forests, not trees.
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Last edited by Realitychex on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3down&loct
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by 3down&loct » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:13 pm

Mostly Harmless,
Honest questions.
How long have you been at WJ so you can retire wealthy?(I would consider 4-5 Mil as a very healthy retirement fund) Perhaps you were one of the lucky ones that made a ton on options when the going was good, or perhaps you have been very lucky in the stock market. Just curious.
How long did your upgrade take?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Schooner69A » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:52 pm

So... Time away from home.

As I understand it, WJ pilots get an annual wage based on a minimum of XX hours per month/per year. They fly less than that minimum, they still get paid. They fly more than the minimum, they get overtime. No premium for night or over water, etc. Basically, you're salaried workers.

Now, during the scheduled flights away, they're sometimes required to spend an overnight - even longer: maybe a day and a half. And some folks think they should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Because they're away from home and family?

Somethings wonky here... Either being away from family is OK or it's not. If it's OK, stop complaining. If it's not OK and family life will not survive, then quit. However, you're on shaky ground if it's not OK but being paid some money makes it OK...

I would hazard a guess that time away from home is nothing new to WJ pilots or their families. Why do folks think it should change because they've "hit the bigtime"? And why do some folks think that salaried workers should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Basically, a "day off" with no responsibility except to show up sober and rested for the start of the next duty day?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by atphat » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Schooner69A wrote:So... Time away from home.

As I understand it, WJ pilots get an annual wage based on a minimum of XX hours per month/per year. They fly less than that minimum, they still get paid. They fly more than the minimum, they get overtime. No premium for night or over water, etc. Basically, you're salaried workers.

Now, during the scheduled flights away, they're sometimes required to spend an overnight - even longer: maybe a day and a half. And some folks think they should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Because they're away from home and family?

Somethings wonky here... Either being away from family is OK or it's not. If it's OK, stop complaining. If it's not OK and family life will not survive, then quit. However, you're on shaky ground if it's not OK but being paid some money makes it OK...

I would hazard a guess that time away from home is nothing new to WJ pilots or their families. Why do folks think it should change because they've "hit the bigtime"? And why do some folks think that salaried workers should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Basically, a "day off" with no responsibility except to show up sober and rested for the start of the next duty day?
I'm convinced you're just some WJ lackey troll at this point. If you're not, thank goodness you're retired and just some old kermugin on a keyboard.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Smitty » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:41 am

I'm getting a good laugh out of those that think Westjet management has the time to organize an internet troll campaign and that anyone who disagrees with bringing a union in must be participating in said campaign.

I guess it's a lot easier than coming up with a valid counterpoint.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:55 am

I suppose attacking a person is easier than responding to their argument. Cool kids call that technique an ad hominem attack.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by complexintentions » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:14 am

Schooner69A wrote:So... Time away from home.

As I understand it, WJ pilots get an annual wage based on a minimum of XX hours per month/per year. They fly less than that minimum, they still get paid. They fly more than the minimum, they get overtime. No premium for night or over water, etc. Basically, you're salaried workers.

Now, during the scheduled flights away, they're sometimes required to spend an overnight - even longer: maybe a day and a half. And some folks think they should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Because they're away from home and family?

Somethings wonky here... Either being away from family is OK or it's not. If it's OK, stop complaining. If it's not OK and family life will not survive, then quit. However, you're on shaky ground if it's not OK but being paid some money makes it OK...

I would hazard a guess that time away from home is nothing new to WJ pilots or their families. Why do folks think it should change because they've "hit the bigtime"? And why do some folks think that salaried workers should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Basically, a "day off" with no responsibility except to show up sober and rested for the start of the next duty day?

Uhhh...you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of employment concepts, let alone aviation. Downroute time is not "off" time, you are there as a result of the company's operations, and as such you are compensated for it. You may not be paid an hourly wage for "sitting in a hotel room", but most certainly one's pay takes into consideration the time spent away on the company's behalf. If you are available for the company's use, and are positioned somewhere as a result of company business, you are at "work". A layover is not a vacation, it is a recovery time. The key point you seem to be having difficulty grasping: time spent away from home on company business is time the company has to pay for in some way or another.

This is not unique to aviation. I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or just trolling.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by rudder » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:02 am

Schooner69A wrote:So... Time away from home.

As I understand it, WJ pilots get an annual wage based on a minimum of XX hours per month/per year. They fly less than that minimum, they still get paid. They fly more than the minimum, they get overtime. No premium for night or over water, etc. Basically, you're salaried workers.

Now, during the scheduled flights away, they're sometimes required to spend an overnight - even longer: maybe a day and a half. And some folks think they should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Because they're away from home and family?

Somethings wonky here... Either being away from family is OK or it's not. If it's OK, stop complaining. If it's not OK and family life will not survive, then quit. However, you're on shaky ground if it's not OK but being paid some money makes it OK...

I would hazard a guess that time away from home is nothing new to WJ pilots or their families. Why do folks think it should change because they've "hit the bigtime"? And why do some folks think that salaried workers should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Basically, a "day off" with no responsibility except to show up sober and rested for the start of the next duty day?
That is either blatantly naive or intentionally naive. Generally speaking, pilots are paid based on piece work. Fly an hour - get paid for an hour.

Imagine if you will an employee of a bulk mailing company. This employee is also compensated on a piece work basis. They are trained and competent operating a machine that can stuff 1000 envelopes per hour and is paid $0.02 per envelope. In a normal 8 hour shift (including statutory breaks) it would be expected that the machine could be operated for 7 hours. Expected compensation for the day would be 7 x 1000 x $0.02 = $140

Now let's say that while this employee shows up at 9 am every weekday and stays until 5 pm, the company controls whether his machine is powered or not depending on customer demand for product. The employee shows up some days and there is no power for 2 hours between 10am and noon. On other days, the employee shows up and the machine remains unpowered all day. For these unpaid periods the employee is not compensated. Yes, they got a longer lunch period or a day sitting in the break room watching tv, but they were not at home. Bottom line - compensation those days is well below $140 (and some days zero). So on weeks where that happens, the employee now comes in on weekends to make up the difference so that they can pay their bills.

Now, I am not trying to oversimplify and I do not want to crawl deeper in to entitlements under the Canada Labour. But this fairly describes the pilot compensation system for most airlines that do NOT have associated practical minimum guarantees to prevent commercial expediency being translated in to employee inefficiency where it is the employee that bears the economic burden.

That is why pilots sign union cards. Because their employer calculates where they can be inefficient but it costs them nothing. They download the problem on to the pilot at the cost of quality time at home.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Schooner69A » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:51 am

Rudder:

"...Generally speaking, pilots are paid based on piece work. Fly an hour - get paid for an hour..."


What does your contract say...? i.e. Are you referred to as an hourly wage-earner or a salaried wage-earner?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:53 am

Rudder works at Jazz, so his terms might be different. At WJ, the pilots are on a salary.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Mostly Harmless » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:10 am

3down&loct wrote:Mostly Harmless,
Honest questions.
How long have you been at WJ so you can retire wealthy?(I would consider 4-5 Mil as a very healthy retirement fund) Perhaps you were one of the lucky ones that made a ton on options when the going was good, or perhaps you have been very lucky in the stock market. Just curious.
How long did your upgrade take?
I am not part of the royal family. Far from it.
Persistence in the stock market. I take the Warren Buffet approach of buy and hold.
I took about peek time to upgrade as the upgrade times are headed down now.

Now, I've answered your questions, lets see if you will answer mine.

4-5 Million?
First question. A modest 5% return on investment would give you an income of $200,000 to $250,000 per anum. Do you really think you need to make that much money in retirement with a paid for house and adult children?

Second question on that one. Where are you going to get that pension? Air Canada? Those days are gone. Look at the Air Canada forum and you'll see what level of retirement fund you can expect out of AC these days if you pull a full 30 years. The answer is 1.5 million. Well below your 4-5 million expectation. So... where are you planning on getting the other 3.5 million shortfall? If it's over seas, I say go for it. (P. S. I'm going to do way better than 1.5 million by the time I retire under the current system)

I see by your expectations that this is less about a realistic wage (do I want more money? Yes) but more about unrealistic expectation of what you are getting in the market that exists today and not the one your daddy grew up in... and a complete lack of patients to see the long term.

However, none of that was my actual point. My actual point was, stop whining in the flight deck. You are ruining my happy place.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Kosiw » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:16 am

If the mainline pilots sign with ALPA, where does this leave the Encore pilot group ?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:11 am

True North wrote:
PositiveRate27 wrote:What you conveniently and I'm sure quite intentionally left out was the "min" part of his quote. Airlines without a minimum guaranteed credit per day can keep pilots in the hotel away from base for days without paying them. If you're at work, you should be getting paid, no? We aren't talking about "x amount per month." We are talking about "x amount of credits per flight hour." A trip is worth a certain amount of flying credits and those credits add up to a monthly pay cheque. If the company wants to keep me in a hotel for 37hrs that's fine. Don't call it a "day off" though. You can explain to my daughter why daddy gets to spend some of his minimum guaranteed days off in Saskatoon and not at home with her.
Are you trying to tell us that if you have a 37 hour layover, that is considered a "day off"?

I spoke with an Encore pilot a while back about this. They don't do stand ups, instead will fly in late on day, have a full day off then leave in the morning a day and a half later. They don't have min credit days, so they only get a perdiem for that "day off."
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:16 am

Schooner69A wrote:So... Time away from home.


Now, during the scheduled flights away, they're sometimes required to spend an overnight - even longer: maybe a day and a half. And some folks think they should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Because they're away from home and family?

Somethings wonky here... Either being away from family is OK or it's not. If it's OK, stop complaining. If it's not OK and family life will not survive, then quit. However, you're on shaky ground if it's not OK but being paid some money makes it OK...

I would hazard a guess that time away from home is nothing new to WJ pilots or their families. Why do folks think it should change because they've "hit the bigtime"? And why do some folks think that salaried workers should be paid for sitting in a hotel room? Basically, a "day off" with no responsibility except to show up sober and rested for the start of the next duty day?
Wait, is this actually how some pilots think? @#$! me. Yes, you should absolutely be paid a minimum credit if you're sitting in a hotel room, away from base on company time.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Lateralus » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:40 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:Rudder works at Jazz, so his terms might be different. At WJ, the pilots are on a salary.
Incorrect. Westjet pilots get paid hourly wage as well.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:03 pm

Yes, if you alter your monthly schedule, your salary will be adjusted up or down by the number of hours changed. Apart from that you're on a salary that includes up to 16 days of work per month, some of which will be overnights.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:23 pm

How is that any different than Jazz/AC and the hour guarantee per month?

You're not salary, you're hourly... with a guarantee minimum. True salaried employees don't get paid overtime.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by Schooner69A » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:42 pm

To the WestJetters:

What wording is used in the contract? Does it refer to "salary" or "hourly wage"...?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

Post by mato » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:52 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:
True North wrote:
PositiveRate27 wrote:What you conveniently and I'm sure quite intentionally left out was the "min" part of his quote. Airlines without a minimum guaranteed credit per day can keep pilots in the hotel away from base for days without paying them. If you're at work, you should be getting paid, no? We aren't talking about "x amount per month." We are talking about "x amount of credits per flight hour." A trip is worth a certain amount of flying credits and those credits add up to a monthly pay cheque. If the company wants to keep me in a hotel for 37hrs that's fine. Don't call it a "day off" though. You can explain to my daughter why daddy gets to spend some of his minimum guaranteed days off in Saskatoon and not at home with her.
Are you trying to tell us that if you have a 37 hour layover, that is considered a "day off"?

I spoke with an Encore pilot a while back about this. They don't do stand ups, instead will fly in late on day, have a full day off then leave in the morning a day and a half later. They don't have min credit days, so they only get a perdiem for that "day off."
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