WestJet To Launch ULCC

[Dockjock]

You might be surprised to hear that zero airlines require their pilots to sleep in tents in the barrens so that's not really a valid comparator. Try to keep up.

[DaveP]

Hi Dock,
I can say with certainty that we have lots of resumes and quality ones. I'm only chiming in because you mentioned nobody is applying (which is false from my data on the recent posting) I'm just curious as why you made the allegation and why?

There will always be change in this industry - that's a guarantee! Even where you work.

Cheers

[truedude]

What DaveP is omitting, is how many resumes he has on file that he would consider "qualify" for the job; he also doesn't say what sort of total time and experience WestJet is looking for these days, beyond the bare minimums posted. And he certainly doesn't have many "qualified" pilots applying to Encore, as is evidence by their attempt to lure Jazz pilots into Direct Entry Captain positions.

Also when Encore first began, he didn't feel that there was going to be any sort of pilot "shortage" in the near future. He posted this a couple years ago:

Hi,
I keep an eye on these trends for our own hiring here at WestJet and Encore.
I'm going off the top of my head here tonight, as I have the actual data on my office computer from TC.
- Basically if memory serves me, ATPL issuance is steady over the last few years at approximately 400 to 500 based off a 10 year trend. (Again, this might not be accurate - but it's pretty close) I get my data straight from licensing in YWG.
- college enrolment is steady at the major institutions like Sault, Con and Seneca.
- smaller less popular programs tend to struggle more for enrolment
My information on the college enrolments come from both direct contact with them and advisory board members

We aren't having any trouble hiring or attracting now at either WJ or Encore.
Notifications for our February WJ course just went out this past Thurs/Fri.

The next courses are in March (2) and April. Encore is monthly.

Cheers


I wonder if he still feels that way.

Westjet may be able to attract pilots, but how many would go to WestJet vs Air Canada these days. How long is an upgrade at Westjet compared to Air Canada. The growth that WestJet saw in the past simply will not ever happen again, and believing it will is delusional.

DaveP is management, his job is to always appear rosy. But the facts are this: There are hundreds of current WestJet pilots with active resume's at Air Canada. If a pilot is given a choice between Encore and Jazz, most will go to Jazz with the hope of going to Air Canada; because Air Canada is a far better job in almost every aspect--including upgrade times. And if they don't go to Air Canada, Jazz is still a far superior job to Encore--and nearly all other Canadian aviation jobs.

[Schooner69A]

Proc-Hdg:

That's your response? JHC!

We didn't have it bad; we had it pretty good. A little inconvenient at times, but, all in all, pretty good.

The point is, in their present situation, WestJet pilots have it much better than I ever did (which wasn't bad). So... what is sticking in their craw?



DockJock:

I am trying to keep up. Trying to understand what more of a cushy sinecure one could want.

Less flying? More time off? More perqs?

Is anybody going to come clean on the perceived problems or are we left to surmise that what is wanted is too embarrassing to talk about...

PS About working for the company: were I starting out, I'd be on them like a burr on a blanket. What's not to like? Good equipment, good pay, good people to fly with, good staff support, good public support... If you're with WJ now, you don't know how good you've got it.

[DaveP]

Hi true,
I used to be management for starters but to simply clarify, I haven't been for about 7 months now.
As for Encore resumes, I do notice a big slowdown for sure, not for WestJet. We even raised the TT up to 3500 hrs min and 1000 pic at WJ and the posting is still filling daily. You asked how many applications I have for WJ - it's in the 100's for wj for being open for 25 ish days. Future growth will swing on the wide body imho. I'm hoping we come out with something soon....

There is lots of competition out there these days for entry 705 jobs as you know and fewer and fewer licences being issued. 45% of the licences were foreign students last year alone. So things are definitely changing. We aren't parking any new deliveries yet for Encore!(knock on wood)

Maybe you are right on the outside applications - but we haven't seen this attrition yet. I've been hearing this rumour as you have for a couple years or better now for both us an Encore. Attrition has been very minimal and spread between corporate, China, sandbox and a few to AC but in all honesty it's been minimal over the years and I have nothing to gain or lose by saying what I see. It's just being honest.

Sorry for the thread drift. Perhaps a better discussion under recruiting.

Take care,
Dave

[mbav8r]

Proc-Hdg:

That's your response? JHC!

We didn't have it bad; we had it pretty good. A little inconvenient at times, but, all in all, pretty good.

The point is, in their present situation, WestJet pilots have it much better than I ever did (which wasn't bad). So... what is sticking in their craw?



DockJock:

I am trying to keep up. Trying to understand what more of a cushy sinecure one could want.

Less flying? More time off? More perqs?

Is anybody going to come clean on the perceived problems or are we left to surmise that what is wanted is too embarrassing to talk about...

PS About working for the company: were I starting out, I'd be on them like a burr on a blanket. What's not to like? Good equipment, good pay, good people to fly with, good staff support, good public support... If you're with WJ now, you don't know how good you've got it.

In a nutshell, they are trying to keep what they had as their current CEO makes changes that has either reduced their quality of life(port closing) or creates a whipsaw competitor(Encore) now new ULCC. It's a road that should've never been travelled(vote to allow Encore), now that it has expect further degradation of their conditions, to be fair, it's likely even if they voted no, Saretsky would have pushed it through anyhow. IMHO
Also, I walked to school up hill both ways and my kids took the friggen bus, they don't know how good they had it!:),

[Schooner69A]

mbav8r:

Thanks for the response.

What is the company's purpose of closing ports?

How does that impact the pilots?

[atphat]

mbav8r:

Thanks for the response.

What is the company's purpose of closing ports?

How does that impact the pilots?

Seriously?

Westjet : Hey we are opening ports! Move your family and buy houses! We encourage you to do this!

Pilot : That sounds like a great deal. Thanks daddy WJ

/// Cut Scene ///

Westjet : Sorry guys. Changed our minds. Now time to commute! Yay!

[Schooner69A]

atphat:

Something's amiss here... Aren't a lot of pilots commuting already? And if the thought of commuting doesn't sit well with you, move to wherever is required. Many of us did so and it wasn't the end of the world.

Seems like a pretty thin excuse to get into bed with an out-of-country union...

Is there anything else?

[PROC_HDG]

atphat:

Something's amiss here... Aren't a lot of pilots commuting already? And if the thought of commuting doesn't sit well with you, move to wherever is required. Many of us did so and it wasn't the end of the world.

Seems like a pretty thin excuse to get into bed with an out-of-country union...

Is there anything else?

It is about keeping the wages and working condition you have, and not being undercut by a ULCC designed to lower wages. It is about trying to keep as many well paying jobs as possible. It is about finally getting industry standard things like duty rigs and minimum day credit, that every other major airline in Canada has had for years. It is about having some certified protection and being represented by a real bargaining agent and not a management run organization like the WJPA. If you actually want an answer to your question, all you have to do is read the rest of this thread, and the many others on this forum about why WJ Pilots will benefit significantly from having real representation.

I'm not sure what the significance of ALPA being an "out of country union" is. At the end of the day, it is the largest pilot union in the world. It has huge resources and basically limitless experience in bargaining etc.

PROC_HDG

[Realitychex]

Let's imagine there are 4 pretty bright guys, we'll call them Cliff, Mike, John and Jim, who come up with a very clever ULCC concept in Canada.

They bring in a very bright marketing guy, we'll call him Biff, a smart CFO type named Andy and a guy who knows his way around air frame acquisition named Gary. Maybe they've even launched a very successful LCC before with a couple them having been involved with the launch of a couple of other success stories.

Let's say these guys take a look at what has transpired in the Canadian market over the past decade as the dominant LCC's costs, whilst still comfortably the lowest in the domestic marketplace, have gone up as the model moves further away from having the lowest stage length adjusted unit costs in the business to a hybrid scenario.

Let's say these guys have been sitting in the weeds waiting for day when those costs reach a tipping point, thus allowing these smart guys to dive back into the market with a sort of WJ 2.0 with heavily capitalized, high density, 189 seat, all coach, no frills, high value, high customer service, simplified and low cost operation. And not only that, these guys know what they are doing, with surgical precision and know all the players, both current and retired who will fill out the 2nd tranche of management. And unlike days gone by, when range was limited to about 1,500 miles, they are now armed with 3,000 mile + ETOPS birds, significantly more developed and robust IT, reservation and RMS systems and the benefit of observing and implementing a further 20 years of best practices.

As much as the pilot group, (and others), might not like the scenario currently being contemplated at WJ, I'll absolutely guarantee it is infinitely better than the alternative, where costs start to get stupid and it's Canadian Airlines all over again, but this time with no December 1999 Hail Mary catch in the end zone.

ALPA and others will pump sunshine until there's no tomorrow, but last I checked, ALPA and those others have never launched an airline. Indeed, we all know what happened when unions essentially ran a major carrier. Into the ground. See UAL in the late 90's for details.

WJ needs to find a way to make this happen and to do it right.

Is there enough bench strength to accomplish it? That is a legitimate question. I'm not sure there's anyone on staff that has ever launched a LCC, and really, REALLY knows what it takes to get it done without bastardizing the concept, as has been the case in every other AWA concept I can think of.

However, doing anything that jeopardizes this concept simply defers a very distasteful outcome that is far, far worse than anything that could be dreamed up by an outfit that has, at best, fleeting knowledge of the peculiarities of the Canadian aviation market, and when push comes to shove, will have no influence whatsoever when times get tough and nasty, unpleasant decisions have to be made.

When ALPA can figure out how to keep the C$ and US$ at par in perpetuity, thus permanently changing the operating, revenue and profitability environment, give me a call.

Until then, I can't see any value in going that direction, indeed, it's the exact opposite. IMO, it's truly an example of cutting off one's nose to spite your face.

[altiplano]

What happens to Biff? LOL...

Give me a break are you contending that if WS doesn't start a ULWC and the pilots bring on ALPA that the business is going to cave?

I'm pretty sure you've said here that AWAs are a mistake. What makes this one better than just controlling costs at the mothership?

[rudder]

Despite suggestions to the contrary, the priorities of the shareholder are different than the priorities of the employee.

The results of the ALPA vote will either confirm or disprove that theory.

And for realitychex - it is the purview of the company to determine the business plan. I am not aware of any pilot union that actually runs the company. Perhaps that is the crux of the issue at WJ. Are there some WJ pilots that actually think that the company shares the responsibility of corporate planning with them?

[flyer 1492]

The top brass at West Jet will fight the pilots unionization efforts to their last breath. They will try to use every trick and scare tactic known to man. They don't want the other employee groups to witness the pilots leaving the WJPA. Because if the pilots do leave the WJPA, the WJPA days are numbered.

The employees at West Jet and Encore will see that all the rhetoric and bluster thrown out by management and their special employees was all but hot air.

I've been watching this thread with interest, and find that most of the pilots would like to work together for a better future. The nay sayers are only in it for themselves.

Just my opinion of course.

Flyer

[teacher]

As someone who was in the military for nearly twenty five years (and all that implies) and corporate for fifteen years (and all that implies), what exactly are the problems that the pilots of Westjet think that joining an out-of-country union will solve?

ALPA does have a Canada Board and represents many Canadian pilot groups. There really is no strictly Canadian alternative.

[hurtin'albertan]

ALPA and others will pump sunshine until there's no tomorrow, but last I checked, ALPA and those others have never launched an airline. Indeed, we all know what happened when unions essentially ran a major carrier. Into the ground. See UAL in the late 90's for details.

However, doing anything that jeopardizes this concept simply defers a very distasteful outcome that is far, far worse than anything that could be dreamed up by an outfit that has, at best, fleeting knowledge of the peculiarities of the Canadian aviation market, and when push comes to shove, will have no influence whatsoever when times get tough and nasty, unpleasant decisions have to be made.

When ALPA can figure out how to keep the C$ and US$ at par in perpetuity, thus permanently changing the operating, revenue and profitability environment, give me a call.

Until then, I can't see any value in going that direction, indeed, it's the exact opposite. IMO, it's truly an example of cutting off one's nose to spite your face.

Ah, the old "unionize and the factory will shut down" routine. As old as the robber barons themselves.

If Westjet goes the way of Canadian Airlines or any of the other failed airlines in the industry it will be due to piss poor management with a lack of vision and creativity. NOT because the pilots wanted a seat at the table and collective voice and to be treated like the professionals they are.

Keep trying Bean...

[groundpilot]

Oh RealityChex...

I've been eagerly waiting for your return after your posts about WJ taking over the international markets and the crumbling of AC.

B767s broken down and a recently cashed maxed out profit sharing cheque and you have returned!!!

Ah this time talks about how ALPA is an evil to WJ pilots and this ULCC is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I eagerly await for more of your brilliant posts because as a pilot you are an embarrassment to the occupation. You are exactly the reason pilots need unions to look out for their interests...

- min daily guarantees
- min pay for time away from base
- having cleaning staff clean the planes. Yes, pilots should be focused on the safety of flight. Not looking for left over coffee cups
- years of service

Keep up the posts...it has been entertaining!!

[Schooner69A]

- min daily guarantees
- min pay for time away from base
- having cleaning staff clean the planes. Yes, pilots should be focused on the safety of flight. Not looking for left over coffee cups
- years of service


Somebody better explain that to me 'cause I snorted coffee out my nose.

And in detail, SVP!

[atphat]

- min daily guarantees
- min pay for time away from base
- having cleaning staff clean the planes. Yes, pilots should be focused on the safety of flight. Not looking for left over coffee cups
- years of service


Somebody better explain that to me 'cause I snorted coffee out my nose.

And in detail, SVP!

If you don't understand it would just be a waste of keystrokes. Ignorance is bliss. Stay blissful.

[Schooner69A]

atphat:

Oh, I think many of us understand quite well.

Let's just take "Pay for time away from base"

This is what pilots do, right? Go away? You get a salary for "X" amount of hours per month (which is quite healthy amount, I understand), and if you're on the ground somewhere in a hotel room, you want more?

Sounds like greed to me.

If I'm mistaken, please enlighten me...