WestJet To Launch ULCC

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Mr. North
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#176 Post by Mr. North » Mon May 01, 2017 1:20 am

There will always be inefficient pairings. As you said the route structure is what it is, 100% satisfaction is impossible. That being said, the inadequacies of the system shouldn't be at the expense of the pilots. In every other profession, one is duly paid for their time. It is a cost of doing business and for too long WJ pilots have borne this burden.

You may be correct in that the pilot shortage could do more for our group than any union - but no one is going to bet on a myth 20+ years in the making. Despite all the talk, the long awaited pilot shortage still isn't here, at least not in the way that you and I are hoping for (more $$$$). Instead all I see is the lowering of the bar and required experience. Until that is exhausted and we get a raise overnight (like AA), I'm going to continue to seek proper representation to manage our issues at hand.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#177 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Mon May 01, 2017 7:52 am

I don't think you should expect any overnight significant pay raises. It will be an arbitrated settlement that you will likely be disappointed with, and will probably not be in place until 2020.

But if you're senior, or an OTS pilot, and not a mid seniority (or lower) pilot based in YYC or YVR, you'll probably be happy with the result.

Cheers
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#178 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 01, 2017 9:51 am

"If ALPA gets in I'm going to use my seniority to bury you every month"

There is going to be no seniority. Not for for the first agreement, or the second, probably never. The pilots don't want it, the company don't want it, ALPA don't care. There is no minimum credit and pilots sitting reserve on the road for free. Seniority is so far down the shopping list that it won't be a blip on the radar.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#179 Post by Smitty » Mon May 01, 2017 12:28 pm

Actually...the company doesn't care if we use seniority or not. The parings will still be built the same, it just gets distributed differently. So the only ones with skin in that game would be the pilot group and those who are paying the most will want something for all the extra money they are paying.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#180 Post by rudder » Mon May 01, 2017 12:39 pm

Smitty wrote: So the only ones with skin in that game would be the pilot group and those who are paying the most will want something for all the extra money they are paying.
Union dues are fully tax deductible. High income earners with an effective rate on last dollar earned of approximately 50% get back half of dues paid at tax time. If the company payroll treats dues deducted at the source as a prequalifying deduction, then the effective rebate is paid on each pay run in the form of less taxes deducted.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#181 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 1:07 pm

rudder wrote:
Smitty wrote: So the only ones with skin in that game would be the pilot group and those who are paying the most will want something for all the extra money they are paying.
Union dues are fully tax deductible. High income earners with an effective rate on last dollar earned of approximately 50% get back half of dues paid at tax time. If the company payroll treats dues deducted at the source as a prequalifying deduction, then the effective rebate is paid on each pay run in the form of less taxes deducted.
I get more bang for my buck at 480 bucks (WJPA) a year, thank you. You can only guarantee me a magazine subscription for 2k a year after I deduct it from my taxes.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#182 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 1:17 pm

Arctic84 wrote:"If ALPA gets in I'm going to use my seniority to bury you every month"

There is going to be no seniority. Not for for the first agreement, or the second, probably never. The pilots don't want it, the company don't want it, ALPA don't care. There is no minimum credit and pilots sitting reserve on the road for free. Seniority is so far down the shopping list that it won't be a blip on the radar.
You want to bet on it? You show me an ALPA shop that doesn't. The company would save a lot of hassle and costs with a 4step seniority bidding system than the twelve step socialized system we have now. The company would love to implement reserve but we have been innovative at avoiding it through our representation. If reserve comes in under ALPA in a CBA and you are junoir to me. Guess who's getting reserve. If my 1.9 percent in dues means I'm paying more than you because I'm senior to you. Guess who's going to demand a better schedule? It's been that way since the get go. If you think some group of 737 pilots North of the boarder are going to erase all that then you are mistaken and perhaps delusional.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#183 Post by Oxi » Mon May 01, 2017 3:13 pm

Does choosing ALPA mean that we will have to adopt a seniority-based scheduling and bidding system?
Absolutely not. ALPA will respect and support the choice of the WestJet pilots in determining how they want to be scheduled through collective bargaining negotiations.

- See more at: http://www.alpa.org/pages/westjet/faq-w ... ZLJ4G.dpuf
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#184 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 3:55 pm

Oxi wrote:
Does choosing ALPA mean that we will have to adopt a seniority-based scheduling and bidding system?
Absolutely not. ALPA will respect and support the choice of the WestJet pilots in determining how they want to be scheduled through collective bargaining negotiations.

- See more at: http://www.alpa.org/pages/westjet/faq-w ... ZLJ4G.dpuf
I choose to have a better schedule than someone who pays less. Especially better than that of an Encore pilot who payed nothing for two years and leap frogged me while I gave up 1.9 percent.Wait I don't have to worry about that because they will no longer be on the WJPDL. Seniority is written into the ALPA constitution and when the law suits regarding common employer start to fly, that is the only part ALPA will have to stand on.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#185 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 01, 2017 4:07 pm

squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:"If ALPA gets in I'm going to use my seniority to bury you every month"

There is going to be no seniority. Not for for the first agreement, or the second, probably never. The pilots don't want it, the company don't want it, ALPA don't care. There is no minimum credit and pilots sitting reserve on the road for free. Seniority is so far down the shopping list that it won't be a blip on the radar.
You want to bet on it? You show me an ALPA shop that doesn't. The company would save a lot of hassle and costs with a 4step seniority bidding system than the twelve step socialized system we have now. The company would love to implement reserve but we have been innovative at avoiding it through our representation. If reserve comes in under ALPA in a CBA and you are junoir to me. Guess who's getting reserve. If my 1.9 percent in dues means I'm paying more than you because I'm senior to you. Guess who's going to demand a better schedule? It's been that way since the get go. If you think some group of 737 pilots North of the boarder are going to erase all that then you are mistaken and perhaps delusional.
4 step 12 steps seniority what? Are you talking about seniority or pay steps or quantum physics as it relates to hemorrhoids on pit bull? It's the same fear mongering crap as always to try and scare junior people. Nobody wants it except a few people who are terrified of a union getting in and spoiling whatever special deals they get. So demand seniority all you want or hold your breath and turn blue. Unless the majority wants it ,you're not getting it. The majority don't want it.

Only a goof wouldn't recognize the free reserve system in place now. If you actually worked here, you'd know that the last agreement removed the pilots ability to refuse pairing changes. So when a guy sits in Toronto for 28 hours and has to go to work , he can't say no. Free reserve.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#186 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 4:17 pm

rudder wrote:
True North wrote:How would being represented by ALPA change anything?
WJPA puppets replaced. Certified bargaining agent with Constitution and By-Laws. Professional resources. Elected representatives. Provisions of the Federal Labour Code for conciliation and right to strike.
Puppets? My job has only improved since the day I started here. Via the structure of our hard working pilots of the WJPA. Do they get it right every time? No. But there is always a resolve to fix it. When things need to get fixed it happens through an open door policy with management. If you choose to change this structure and relationship there will be a price to pay. Is there currently a problem with your schedule or pay? A resolution is only a phone call away. Under a different structure ,"grieve it and we'll get back to you in 6 months or the next CBA. Whatever comes first. Have a great day."
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#187 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 4:28 pm

Arctic84 wrote:
squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:"If ALPA gets in I'm going to use my seniority to bury you every month"

There is going to be no seniority. Not for for the first agreement, or the second, probably never. The pilots don't want it, the company don't want it, ALPA don't care. There is no minimum credit and pilots sitting reserve on the road for free. Seniority is so far down the shopping list that it won't be a blip on the radar.
You want to bet on it? You show me an ALPA shop that doesn't. The company would save a lot of hassle and costs with a 4step seniority bidding system than the twelve step socialized system we have now. The company would love to implement reserve but we have been innovative at avoiding it through our representation. If reserve comes in under ALPA in a CBA and you are junoir to me. Guess who's getting reserve. If my 1.9 percent in dues means I'm paying more than you because I'm senior to you. Guess who's going to demand a better schedule? It's been that way since the get go. If you think some group of 737 pilots North of the boarder are going to erase all that then you are mistaken and perhaps delusional.
4 step 12 steps seniority what? Are you talking about seniority or pay steps or quantum physics as it relates to hemorrhoids on pit bull? It's the same fear mongering crap as always to try and scare junior people. Nobody wants it except a few people who are terrified of a union getting in and spoiling whatever special deals they get. So demand seniority all you want or hold your breath and turn blue. Unless the majority wants it ,you're not getting it. The majority don't want it.

Only a goof wouldn't recognize the free reserve system in place now. If you actually worked here, you'd know that the last agreement removed the pilots ability to refuse pairing changes. So when a guy sits in Toronto for 28 hours and has to go to work , he can't say no. Free reserve.
The steps I'm referring to are the computer system Westjet has for socialized bidding. It's a pain in the ass and could vanish under seniority. Seniority is easy. Everybody in the top half gets what they want and everybody on the bottom half gets what is left. What are you willing to give up in order to keep it. Free Reserve? If ALPA gets in and westjet right sizes our bases by forced moves, which is currently in our agreement then you will miss the days you commuted from YVR to YYC instead of YVR to YYZ.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#188 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 01, 2017 4:38 pm

More fear mongering. Do use a script? There will be no seniority. Theirs going to be a union and you aren't going to get seniority. That's your worst case scenario, but for the other guys coming up behind you their will be improvements like minimum credit and paid reserve.

In 15 or 20 years when all the short comings have been cleaned up, maybe then some bargaining capital might get spent on seniority. Then you can have any trip you want.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#189 Post by 3down&loct » Mon May 01, 2017 4:46 pm

Mostly harmless, you said,
"I'm still waiting for 3down&loct to answer my questions on where he's getting his 4 to 5 million dollar retirement.
If this is an option, I want to know about it. "

Never made that claim at all. I was simply referring to your claim of retiring wealthy. To me wealthy would be 4-5 mil saved to live a wealthy life style which you claim you can do after retiring at WJ.
I am probably somewhere around your vintage and if I retire at 55 I will have about 1 mi saved ( ans I have done 20% ESP the whole time and did extremely well in the stock market market with about 20% returns). So I guess you may be talking about retirement at around 65 perhaps.

So I guess it comes down to what you regard as wealth.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#190 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 4:58 pm

Arctic84 wrote:More fear mongering. Do use a script? There will be no seniority. Theirs going to be a union and you aren't going to get seniority. That's your worst case scenario, but for the other guys coming up behind you their will be improvements like minimum credit and paid reserve.

In 15 or 20 years when all the short comings have been cleaned up, maybe then some bargaining capital might get spent on seniority. Then you can have any trip you want.
No senoirty? Have you read the ALPA constitution? I have. Only because they represented me for 6 years at my old seniority based shop. 15-20 years is a long time in this business. A year is a long time, and I'll wager there will be a lot of navel gazing by our pilots in that time. Never under estimate our ability to completely implode via natural selection. "Script"? Is that kinda like "it's time!"?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#191 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:18 pm

squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:More fear mongering. Do use a script? There will be no seniority. Theirs going to be a union and you aren't going to get seniority. That's your worst case scenario, but for the other guys coming up behind you their will be improvements like minimum credit and paid reserve.

In 15 or 20 years when all the short comings have been cleaned up, maybe then some bargaining capital might get spent on seniority. Then you can have any trip you want.
15-20 years is a long time in this business. A year is a long time, and I'll wager there will be a lot of navel gazing by our pilots in that time. Never under estimate our ability to completely implode via natural selection. "Script"? Is that kinda like "it's time!"?
It's a long time, sure. The mess the inhouse representation made is going to take a long time to clean up. No work rules and free reserve are just a couple of the f ups. It's a long list. Somebody said that the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Or do nothing and watch what little that's left dribble away. ULCC anyone?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#192 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 5:34 pm

Arctic84 wrote:
squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:More fear mongering. Do use a script? There will be no seniority. Theirs going to be a union and you aren't going to get seniority. That's your worst case scenario, but for the other guys coming up behind you their will be improvements like minimum credit and paid reserve.

In 15 or 20 years when all the short comings have been cleaned up, maybe then some bargaining capital might get spent on seniority. Then you can have any trip you want.
15-20 years is a long time in this business. A year is a long time, and I'll wager there will be a lot of navel gazing by our pilots in that time. Never under estimate our ability to completely implode via natural selection. "Script"? Is that kinda like "it's time!"?
It's a long time, sure. The mess the inhouse representation made is going to take a long time to clean up. No work rules and free reserve are just a couple of the f ups. It's a long list. Somebody said that the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Or do nothing and watch what little that's left dribble away. ULCC anyone?

What mess? Free reserve? We have OCD days witch you are "free"to volunteer for. We have FLICA shift trades. We have unlimited OT pick ups. We have unlimited sick days and payed fatigue book off days. What more do you want? They can pay you for involuntary reserve if you want. If you are a junior guy I'll make sure you get it . What are you willing to give up from my above list. That list does not occur under any ALPA CBA in Canada. I'm starting to think you may be a Millennial.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#193 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:54 pm

squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:
squawk wrote:
15-20 years is a long time in this business. A year is a long time, and I'll wager there will be a lot of navel gazing by our pilots in that time. Never under estimate our ability to completely implode via natural selection. "Script"? Is that kinda like "it's time!"?
It's a long time, sure. The mess the inhouse representation made is going to take a long time to clean up. No work rules and free reserve are just a couple of the f ups. It's a long list. Somebody said that the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Or do nothing and watch what little that's left dribble away. ULCC anyone?

What mess? Free reserve? We have OCD days witch you are "free"to volunteer for. We have FLICA shift trades. We have unlimited OT pick ups. We have unlimited sick days and payed fatigue book off days. What more do you want? They can pay you for involuntary reserve if you want. If you are a junior guy I'll make sure you get it . What are you willing to give up from my above list. That list does not occur under any ALPA CBA in Canada. I'm starting to think you may be a Millennial.

Well if OCD is the answer, then why can't you tell crew sched no thanks? Because they want their free reserve, and they have it. OCD is only available at Xmas and long weekends when the free reserve is used up. Unlimited OT is an absolute necessity for the company because they under crew and unfortunately for the pilots to pay the bills. Unlimited sick days is a myth. Use more than what company claims the average is, 5 days I heard, and your going to get a call from the second floor about it. Same deal with calling in fatigue. There is an investigation and if you had the opportunity to rest you aren't getting paid. Please, don't try to bullshit me. Save it for the uninformed.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#194 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 6:06 pm

Arctic84 wrote:
squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:
It's a long time, sure. The mess the inhouse representation made is going to take a long time to clean up. No work rules and free reserve are just a couple of the f ups. It's a long list. Somebody said that the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Or do nothing and watch what little that's left dribble away. ULCC anyone?

What mess? Free reserve? We have OCD days witch you are "free"to volunteer for. We have FLICA shift trades. We have unlimited OT pick ups. We have unlimited sick days and payed fatigue book off days. What more do you want? They can pay you for involuntary reserve if you want. If you are a junior guy I'll make sure you get it . What are you willing to give up from my above list. That list does not occur under any ALPA CBA in Canada. I'm starting to think you may be a Millennial.

Well if OCD is the answer, then why can't you tell crew sched no thanks? Because they want their free reserve, and they have it. OCD is only available at Xmas and long weekends when the free reserve is used up. Unlimited OT is an absolute necessity for the company because they under crew and unfortunately for the pilots to pay the bills. Unlimited sick days is a myth. Use more than what company claims the average is, 5 days I heard, and your going to get a call from the second floor about it. Same deal with calling in fatigue. There is an investigation and if you had the opportunity to rest you aren't getting paid. Please, don't try to bullshit me. Save it for the uninformed.
What you are spewing is absolute paranoid union propaganda! Their is no basis and no merit to what you are saying. OCD is payed at 1.5 times your hourly pay. OCD blocks are available under your wings bidding system and under our latest MOA part time pilots are paid at 1.5 for a OCD call out and are also ESP eligible. Stick to the facts and the truth. Throw your emotions aside.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#195 Post by Arctic84 » Mon May 01, 2017 6:23 pm

Every thing I said is exactly correct, and it's you that is becoming emotional. Just because you repeat the crap over and over doesn't make it true.

You want to bid for OCD at Xmas and the July long weekend, be my guest. Guys will still be sitting in hotels on 30 hours layover waiting to be forced to work. If they aren't, no pay. Free reserve. You didn't argue about the myth of unlimited sick days and fatigue callins.

The crack about millennialist shows how much respect you have for new people. Really, isn't it all about paying next to nothing for imaginary representation?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#196 Post by fish4life » Mon May 01, 2017 6:26 pm

squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:
squawk wrote:
15-20 years is a long time in this business. A year is a long time, and I'll wager there will be a lot of navel gazing by our pilots in that time. Never under estimate our ability to completely implode via natural selection. "Script"? Is that kinda like "it's time!"?
It's a long time, sure. The mess the inhouse representation made is going to take a long time to clean up. No work rules and free reserve are just a couple of the f ups. It's a long list. Somebody said that the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Or do nothing and watch what little that's left dribble away. ULCC anyone?

What mess? Free reserve? We have OCD days witch you are "free"to volunteer for. We have FLICA shift trades. We have unlimited OT pick ups. We have unlimited sick days and payed fatigue book off days. What more do you want? They can pay you for involuntary reserve if you want. If you are a junior guy I'll make sure you get it . What are you willing to give up from my above list. That list does not occur under any ALPA CBA in Canada. I'm starting to think you may be a Millennial.
I don't work there but I'd rather be a millennial than an entitled old fart that bankrupted this country for the younger generation to pay for. Think about who the entitled ones are...
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#197 Post by Smitty » Mon May 01, 2017 6:48 pm

rudder wrote:
Smitty wrote: So the only ones with skin in that game would be the pilot group and those who are paying the most will want something for all the extra money they are paying.
Union dues are fully tax deductible. High income earners with an effective rate on last dollar earned of approximately 50% get back half of dues paid at tax time. If the company payroll treats dues deducted at the source as a prequalifying deduction, then the effective rebate is paid on each pay run in the form of less taxes deducted.
Even with the tax return, it's still a helluva lot more than I'm paying now.

You guys keep tossing around the tax deduction like it's some sort of incentive to join....It's not. And some basic math is all it takes to reveal this.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#198 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 6:57 pm

Arctic84 wrote:Every thing I said is exactly correct, and it's you that is becoming emotional. Just because you repeat the crap over and over doesn't make it true.

You want to bid for OCD at Xmas and the July long weekend, be my guest. Guys will still be sitting in hotels on 30 hours layover waiting to be forced to work. If they aren't, no pay. Free reserve. You didn't argue about the myth of unlimited sick days and fatigue callins.

The crack about millennialist shows how much respect you have for new people. Really, isn't it all about paying next to nothing for imaginary representation?

If you are truly a WestJet Pilot and a millennial then I'm very sceptical about our future. Think long and hard before you vote. Could be for your own demise or your own sucsess. Good Luck to you.
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#199 Post by squawk » Mon May 01, 2017 6:58 pm

fish4life wrote:
squawk wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:
It's a long time, sure. The mess the inhouse representation made is going to take a long time to clean up. No work rules and free reserve are just a couple of the f ups. It's a long list. Somebody said that the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Or do nothing and watch what little that's left dribble away. ULCC anyone?

What mess? Free reserve? We have OCD days witch you are "free"to volunteer for. We have FLICA shift trades. We have unlimited OT pick ups. We have unlimited sick days and payed fatigue book off days. What more do you want? They can pay you for involuntary reserve if you want. If you are a junior guy I'll make sure you get it . What are you willing to give up from my above list. That list does not occur under any ALPA CBA in Canada. I'm starting to think you may be a Millennial.
I don't work there but I'd rather be a millennial than an entitled old fart that bankrupted this country for the younger generation to pay for. Think about who the entitled ones are...
Are you taking a break from Xbox?
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Re: WestJet To Launch ULCC

#200 Post by altiplano » Mon May 01, 2017 7:10 pm

That list does not occur under any ALPA CBA
Your present terms and conditions can't be eroded unilaterally at certification. You would have everything you do today unless you bargained it away.
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