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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:27 pm 
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To have the guidance and backing of a pilot ran Union over an association that was bargaining with a loaded deck.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:59 pm 
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True North wrote:
If all that is true then why do you need ALPA?


In my opinion the WJPA was overwhelmed and I had little faith that they would have extracted enough value from our leveraged position. Frankly - I don't think they even knew they had a leveraged position or what to do with it otherwise.

Either way - it's a done deal now.

Time will tell all.

Cheers.

JJJ



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:02 pm 
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Couldn't be happier since ALPA showed up.

Sounds like they have a plan when Greg tries to cut wages for the ULCC too.

And Yup send it to arbitration! Good luck trying to convince an arbitrator that a company making money with a billion in the bank needs concessions from the most productive pilots in N . America.

Want a prediction ? Better times ahead boys n girls .
5 years of rolling over have ended :))


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:11 am 
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Location: of my pants is unknown.
You are clearly a disloyal "owner".

Must. Recalibrate. Selection. Process.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:01 am 
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I wonder why .80 is so happy. No work terms have changed. Zero. But I am glad that he or she is so happy about there being plans in place.

Plans. Too many aphorisms dealing with "plans" to choose from so I won't. As I drive by the picket line at YYZ tomorrow I'll ask the strikers how their plans are going. Last month I heard the chubby black guy in the ball cap tell the driver ahead of me taht they had the company just where they want them. It was all part of the plan.

Less than 25% of WJ YYC and YYZ pilots bothered to vote for their new ALPA reps. Perhaps 75+% of the pilots at those two bases are happy with the plans too.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 am 
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Very lovely side conversation about it all but, is no one going to answer my question? No one at all? What if I said please?

Is there a time limit on how long negotiations can stay in arbitration?

With so many experts, someone must know the answer to that question... and why is everyone avoiding answering it?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:13 am 
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Mach1 wrote:
Very lovely side conversation about it all but, is no one going to answer my question? No one at all? What if I said please?

Is there a time limit on how long negotiations can stay in arbitration?

With so many experts, someone must know the answer to that question... and why is everyone avoiding answering it?


There is no time limit but in my experience it is much harder to stall once a third party like and conciliator, mediator or and arbitrator are involved. One party can also seek assistance from the labour board.


As for the comment on low participation on the election vote, its not unusual for this to have a low turnout. The same low participation on a vote for a LOU, strike vote or the CA would cause much more concern to the MEC.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:59 am 
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TFTMB heavy wrote:
As for the comment on low participation on the election vote, its not unusual for this to have a low turnout. The same low participation on a vote for a LOU, strike vote or the CA would cause much more concern to the MEC.


Ya? You got any evidence to back up your post? Ever seen a 25% voter turn out and a self appointed MEC lead to long term satisfaction from those governed?

(King Joffrey is on the throne and we are now just waiting for a midget and a clever mother-in-law to attend the reception.)



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:09 am 
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NewCommercialPilot wrote:
TFTMB heavy wrote:
As for the comment on low participation on the election vote, its not unusual for this to have a low turnout. The same low participation on a vote for a LOU, strike vote or the CA would cause much more concern to the MEC.


Ya? You got any evidence to back up your post? Ever seen a 25% voter turn out and a self appointed MEC lead to long term satisfaction from those governed?

(King Joffrey is on the throne and we are now just waiting for a midget and a clever mother-in-law to attend the reception.)



Yes I do.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:16 am 
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Hey NCP


Since you've stated in the past you don't intend to sign a card, why do you give a rats ass about voter turnout? By not signing you don't get a say, or a vote. Perhaps you could sign, then you could help make positive change and not just armchair quarterback? Once we get a new CBA you'll be paying dues anyway, why not have a say and a vote ?



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:27 pm 
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TFTMB heavy, thanks for the answer. I couldn't find anything on time limits in arbitration and everyone is walking around talking like it's the holy grail of solutions. I'm hoping we don't have to rely on that for our first agreement.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:24 pm 
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.80@410 wrote:
And Yup send it to arbitration! Good luck trying to convince an arbitrator that a company making money with a billion in the bank needs concessions from the most productive pilots in N . America.


I wish people would stop saying that. No negotiator (company or union) wants to go to arbitration. Like going to trial, arbitration is considered a failure of the negotiators. Don't think that an arbitrator will automatically give us what we want. Yes there are things that AC gets that we don't (pension, YOS), but there are a lot of things that we get that AC doesn't (better vacation, ESP, options, etc). The truth is that the arbitrator will look at T4 income, not our oft maligned take-home.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:21 pm 
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NewCommercialPilot wrote:
I wonder why .80 is so happy. No work terms have changed. Zero..



That's exactly why I'm so happy.


It's the sweetest change of all. Thanks for reminding me exactly how things have improved. :lol:

:smt040


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Can any of you remind me of all of these promises ALPA made us? As far as I remember they clearly stated in many emails (while the company was sending out its lawyer sponsored fraud) that they in fact make no promises. What they did in fact promise us was proper and fair representation as well as 'round the world support that we will be needing the very near future.

And as far as de-certification goes, give your heads a shake. That is something that if it ever were to happen, it is years and years away.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:38 am 
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Bede wrote:
.80@410 wrote:
And Yup send it to arbitration! Good luck trying to convince an arbitrator that a company making money with a billion in the bank needs concessions from the most productive pilots in N . America.


I wish people would stop saying that. No negotiator (company or union) wants to go to arbitration. Like going to trial, arbitration is considered a failure of the negotiators. Don't think that an arbitrator will automatically give us what we want. Yes there are things that AC gets that we don't (pension, YOS), but there are a lot of things that we get that AC doesn't (better vacation, ESP, options, etc). The truth is that the arbitrator will look at T4 income, not our oft maligned take-home.


Hi Bede, curious as to what WJ vacation entitlement is per year and when it is awarded, how much credit do you get per day of vacation? Also, AC has an employee stock option plan that allow contributions directly off your pay check (up to 12%, I think - but I'm not that brave) and then the company matches 33% continuous contributions in April. How does it work at WJ?



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:13 am 
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Quote:
Also, AC has an employee stock option plan that allow contributions directly off your pay check (up to 12%, I think - but I'm not that brave) and then the company matches 33% continuous contributions in April. How does it work at WJ?


Those would be Employee Stock Purchase Program. Options are granted to you and you have to buy them when you sell during the vesting period.

Westjet has:
Hourly pay
Stock options granted to you or; Restricted share units or; Cash (listed in diminishing rates of return and risk)
Stock purchase program of up to 20% of your gross wages and the company matches that at 100% up to the 20% of gross wages (straight time)
Profit sharing which is based on voodoo economics as far as I can tell. :)

Quote:
curious as to what WJ vacation entitlement is per year and when it is awarded, how much credit do you get per day of vacation?


Maximum holiday time is 4 blocks of 5 days with 2 guaranteed days off which can be split or put on one end of the vacation, paid out at a rte of 4.5 hours per day. (4 weeks of holidays). We do not get paid 1.5 times for statutory holidays but get 10 days off in lieu that can be bid as holiday blocks, also with GDO's. These are bid around late September or early October. Bidding is done by a point system not a seniority system... I'll leave that to someone else to explain.

That should lay out our program pretty well. What is the holiday entitlement at Air Canada and how is it awarded and credited?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:54 am 
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Great info thanks.

Your ESOP and vacation entitlement are both better than AC.

1 year or more, but less than 5 years - 14 days
5 years or more, but less than 15 years - 21 days
15 years or more, but less than 25 years - 28 days
25 years or more - 35 days

The above entitlement is increased by 9 additional days in lieu of general holidays as provided for in the Canada Labour Code.

During a vacation period, Pilots will be paid and Flight Time limited 2h55 at DN for each calendar day.

There is no incentive to work Stat Holidays at AC either.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:34 pm 
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https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/sears-defined-pension-plan-apos-140005617.html

A cautionary tale to those negotiating. Be very careful about what you are asking for. Old thinking can have long term consequences.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:50 am 
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Maritimer wrote:
Can any of you remind me of all of these promises ALPA made us? As far as I remember they clearly stated in many emails (while the company was sending out its lawyer sponsored fraud) that they in fact make no promises. What they did in fact promise us was proper and fair representation as well as 'round the world support that we will be needing the very near future.

.


This is the case.

There was much criticism of individual OC members when they refused to "guarantee" anything outside of the resources available through ALPA. There was, and is, a form of derogatory perception that WestJet pilots can't be pro-company yet chose to access resources that present "their case" more accurately and vigorously.
There are still some who cannot imagine that WestJet pilots voted for ALPA based on it's resources (this includes access to the CLC) rather than outlandish promises.
Believe it or not, the only meaningful counter arguments were presented by non other than NewComercialPilot. While some of his points re Encore pilots were stretched to the limit, most of his arguments were on issues that were relevant to WestJet pilots and had a corresponding unknown in the certified ALPA world. This was far and away better work than the WJPA, who's feeble attempts only served to underline how out of touch they were with the things that concerned WestJet pilots. He will note that the recent agreement between the ALPA pilots at JAZZ re Bearskin pilots etc proves his arguments wrong.
Good work Plato.



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:24 am 
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#37

While many of the ALPA OC were honest about what a union can and can't do, there were just as many who made big promises based on the listener's list of grievances. The usual laundry list of better pay (and not just AC, but parity with US carriers :shock: ), pension, improved YOS, etc. All trigger points that would make anyone sign a card because hey!, it came from a representative of the union so it has to be true.

While I'm not saying these are unachievable, to make these guarantees was highly irresponsible.



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