WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

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atphat
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#26 Post by atphat » Sat May 13, 2017 7:07 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:

Out of curiosity, if anyone knows the answer, does a Jazz pilot take their Jazz DOH with them when they flow to AC?
No. It's never been that way and likely never will be. BOTL.
As it should be. No offence.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#27 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sat May 13, 2017 8:23 pm

fish4life wrote:It's been beaten to death Encore carries their DOH over if mainline pilots put that in the CBA which by all accounts they will.
And if they try doing that they will be violating ALPA policy which was specifically designed to avoid controversy in the event of mergers. Or do you have any proof that a CBA can violate 61 year old policy?

Cheers

JS
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#28 Post by teacher » Sun May 14, 2017 6:17 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
fish4life wrote:It's been beaten to death Encore carries their DOH over if mainline pilots put that in the CBA which by all accounts they will.
And if they try doing that they will be violating ALPA policy which was specifically designed to avoid controversy in the event of mergers. Or do you have any proof that a CBA can violate 61 year old policy?

Cheers

JS
Merger policy covers the merger of 2 lists IE airline buyout. That way the possible lack of a contract is covered by a fair and blind date of hire rule.

Flow through agreements are different and ANYTHING can be negotiated.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#29 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun May 14, 2017 1:04 pm

atphat wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:

Out of curiosity, if anyone knows the answer, does a Jazz pilot take their Jazz DOH with them when they flow to AC?
No. It's never been that way and likely never will be. BOTL.
As it should be. No offence.
None taken, I agree and have no problem with it. Seniority is the one thing in aviation that can be counted on to be a sure thing.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#30 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun May 14, 2017 1:50 pm

Hi Teacher.

Anything can be negotiated, but only the ALPA President can give give his approval to any agreement between an ALPA pilot group and WJ. And he, the President, is constitutionally bound to follow policies issued by the Executive Board.

As well, the constitution of a union forms a contract between the members and the union. Members are entitled to sue the union in court for breaches of that contract. Ergo, the OTS pilots would file an action against ALPA (after exhausting all internal union procedures) should ALPA agree to a seniority list that violates the DOH directive.

Certainly, as you mention, ALPA could reserve numbers below the most junior EXISTING WJ pilot, but no non-WJ pilots will leap frog an existing WJ pilot when they flow/get hired.

As well, all existing WJ pilots who came from Encore will occupy a spot on the list according to their WJ DOH, and if not, once again, the OTS pilots sue.

The OTS pilots have just won a jackpot at the expense of the Encore cohort. Not exactly a unifying issue.

Cheers

JS
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#31 Post by IKEA_Monkey » Sun May 14, 2017 2:46 pm

In all my interactions with everyone I work with at WJ, no one wants to give up DOH and throw Encore under the bus. Everyone is pulling in the same direction. The only person making any noise over this is you sir. So much so that I would not be surprised in the slightest if you are the one who files "a grievance" even though you personally stand to gain nothing from it.

The vote is over, there is no going back. The majority wanted new representation so lets give it a chance. If you're really concerned about pilot unity, there are plenty of ways to promote that in which your work ethic would be well received.

If not, at least stop it with the dramatics.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#32 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun May 14, 2017 4:11 pm

Hey I.M., I'm a big fan of reality, not sugar coating anything and certainly not whistling past the graveyard. I'm just helping you and anyone else who is ignorant of the law and reality know the difference. Every time I see something that is at odds with the facts I'll point it out.

The vote is over so my info won't influence anything. Now we get to see if I was right.

Cheers

JS
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#33 Post by atphat » Sun May 14, 2017 8:26 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote: I'm just helping you and anyone else who is ignorant of the law and reality know the difference.
Epic.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#34 Post by altiplano » Mon May 15, 2017 6:10 am

Arbitrations in this country have gone against BOTL in the past. Here you clearly have a common employer and a previous standing flow agreement which bases transfer seniority on DOH at the common employer.

The union doesn't own or control the seniority list.

That said, if I was a westjet pilot I'd be pushing to change that agreement moving forward and make BOTL the new standard lest something other than encore flow bites you down the road.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#35 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Mon May 15, 2017 8:51 am

Arbitration? Sorry friend, you're thinking of a merger and/or common employer, neither of which are going to occur here. I am very empathetic to what is about to happen to the current and former Encore pilots. I counseled against this, but was largely met with indifference and personal attacks against my character. The only hope for those negatively affected would be for the Executive Board of ALPA to convene and alter the 61 year old DOH policy. Perhaps start contacting every MEC chair now.

As a reminder, here is the oath that the ALPA President swore upon taking office:

I hereby pledge on my honor to accept the responsibilities of this office and perform the attendant duties to the best of my ability; to uphold faithfully the Constitution and By-Laws of the Air Line Pilots Association; to comply with and advance the policies of the Association; to bear true allegiance to and uphold the principles of the Air Line Pilots Association and conduct myself and this office in such a manner so as to bring credit to the Association, its members and the airline piloting profession.

As I have mentioned before the President must sign off on every agreement negotiated between WJ pilots and WJ. If he doesn't agree with any items in the agreement, he doesn't sign. Period.

One of the policies he must "comply with and advance" is the Board policy on seniority list construction.

Enough said on this topic.

Cheers

JS

Oh and to the poster above who said I'd be the one to file a grievance on this issue: one more time, with feeling, this will never be a grievance issue. This can only ever be a Breach of Contract action by an OTS pilot adversely affected by the violation of Board policy. So no, I would not have standing to file such a claim.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#36 Post by Maritimer » Mon May 15, 2017 12:27 pm

John, can you tell me why you feel the OTS pilots (such as you were, and everyone before Encore) are all of a sudden viewed as a black sheep in the WJ world just because they avoided Encore?
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#37 Post by Old fella » Mon May 15, 2017 12:46 pm

"As I have mentioned before the President must sign off on every agreement negotiated between WJ pilots and WJ. If he doesn't agree with any items in the agreement, he doesn't sign. Period."

I believe the WJ pilots negotiating committee do the work between the pilot membership and WJ mgt in securing a new collective agreement. The initial agreement goes back to the pilot membership with a recommendation of acceptance or rejection by the committee for ratification. I don't think the ALPA president is involved in securing the agreement, yes he/she signs on behalf of the organization for legal purposes.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#38 Post by Schooner69A » Mon May 15, 2017 1:09 pm

Some may remember when Air Canada and Canadian Airlines merged. Robert Milton wrote a book called “Straight from the Top: the Truth About Air Canada” about his time as CEO in which he discusses the merger… It was not an easy time; an excerpt from the book:

“The two historical adversarial groups of employees had dramatically different views of the world. The Air Canada employees felt all Canadian Airlines employees should be “tail ended”, or put at the bottom of the seniority list, whereas all Canadian employees (who tended to be more senior as the more junior employees had been laid off in recent years as Canadian struggled financially) believed that the only valid measure was “date of hire”.”

It was not an easy merge. At one point during a routine route check on a mixed crew taxiing out for departure, a TC inspector advised that if they didn’t get the sh*t together, he would order the aircraft back to the gate…


The point is that if two differing pilot groups are going to merge, make damn sure everyone understands and agrees to the ground rules and that the “lower” group has not been led down the garden path as to their standing within the union-to-come.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#39 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Tue May 16, 2017 7:03 am

Hi Old Fella (I'm moving in that direction myself).

The reason for the signature of the President is not just for legal purposes. It is also so that the pilot group does not negotiate something that goes against the wishes of the President and/or the policy of ALPA.

In 1962/63, American Airlines pilots, then members of ALPA, negotiated an agreement with their management with respect to their flight engineers that was in violation of ALPA policy requiring all FEs to hold a pilot licence etc. AA pilots secured other perks which they traded to allow the FEs to remain non-pilots. A brouhaha (that had been festering) developed between the AA MEC and the ALPA President, who withheld his signature from the agreement. At the end of the day AA pilots left ALPA and formed the APA.

More recently and perhaps less on point, the Air Canada pilots left CALPA over a policy decision with which they disagreed.

The ALPA President has constitutional authority to replace/remove an MEC that violates ALPA policy, like the one requiring MECs to use "every means at its command" (Nuclear weapons? Sicilian neckties? Compromising photos with underage midgets?...) to achieve a DOH seniority list (absent a merger).

Here is the authority:

ARTICLE XIX - TRUSTEESHIPS AND WITHDRAWAL OF REPRESENTATION
SECTION 1 - TRUSTEE ACTION TO PROTECT THE ASSOCIATION


A. The President of the Association, with the concurrent approval of the Executive Board, is authorized to take corrective action against an airline Master Executive Council or Local Executive Council, or any officer or representative thereof, if any such Council, officer or other representative, in the judgment of the President of the Association and the Executive Board, violates or fails to comply with any of the provisions of the Constitution and By-Laws of the Association, or policies, or engages in financial malpractice or corruption, or embezzlement or misappropriation of funds.

B. Such corrective action may include, in the case of a Master Executive Council or Local Executive Council, the suspension or revocation of recognition of such Master Executive Council or Local Executive Council, its dissolution, the suspension or removal of any of its officers or committees or representatives and the designation of a Trustee or Trustees over the affairs and property of the Master Executive Council or Local Executive Council.


Additionally, were WJ pilots to get to the point (they won't) of negotiating a non-DOH seniority list that recognized Encore service, they would find that such a list cannot comply with current ALPA Merger Policy.

The future MEC Chairman is on a collision course with the former Encore pilots. The coming election campaign would be the time for a potential Chairman to reveal his/her plans in this respect.

Cheers

JS

P.S. Here is the official ALPA version of the AA split: http://www3.alpa.org/publications/Flyin ... ter22.html

And here is the lawsuit from when the ALPA President sued American Airlines over the split.

https://casetext.com/case/ruby-v-americ ... ines-inc-3
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#40 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Tue May 16, 2017 7:15 am

Hi Maritimer. As far as I know, there are no black sheep in the WestJet and/or Encore ranks. There are only groups with divergent interests. (Pilots wanting seniority bidding vs those not wanting it; pilots wanting DC pension vs those wanting to keep our ESP; those wanting to keep the WPDL and its non DOH principle (former Encore pilots) vs those wanting DOH (post May 2014 OTS pilots)).

WJ pilots had agreed to the One List recognizing Encore service in 2014. Unfortunately, we are now collectively organized and as such all previously negotiated items (ALL) have no bearing now (apart form statutory freeze) as ALPA did not negotiate and agree to them. ALPA now has a duty to represent pilots in the WJ bargaining unit and protect their rights, and to apply "uniform principles of seniority" ( no favourites), with no consideration for how it may affect Encore pilots, even if they certify with ALPA. The relationship between Mainline and Regional will develop as it has everywhere else...

There will always be winners and losers in life. I've mostly lost, with some pretty big wins. The trick is not turning into an angry old man with a drinking and thinking problem as a result of external factors that you more or less can't control.

Peace to you all.

JS
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#41 Post by Finn » Tue May 16, 2017 9:20 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:.



Peace to you all.

JS
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Hi NewCP
What you are arguing is the application of the extreme and probably the final action a President of ALPA can employ to a seriously dysfunctional or rogue pilot group. Unless the WJ pilots go totally sideways in there actions, and I mean properly insane, no ALPA President is going to stand in the way of the current agreement they have with Encore or a significantly enhanced version of that. No way, no how. That is not the way ALPA works. You are reading a manual or succumbing to propaganda, and respectfully, have no real experience in application of that manual or real life experience. Of note their have been instances of an ALPA President declining to sign Canadian Collective agreements or letters that mending them. That is interesting, but under the law of this country has no effect on the legitimacy of a properly ratified agreement. There have been case of the President of a Company refusing to sign properly ratified agreement. That too is interesting but irrelevant to it's efficacy. ALPA carriers in Canada have negotiated seniority rights for other pilot groups to their own bargaining unit on an interest bases. That is a fact.

Bottom line is that the biggest motivation that holds ALPA together isn't the ADMIN Manual, Constitution and Bylaws, but the collective will of all the pilot groups to pool their resources to support common interests, share their collective experiences and form a community of like minded (ie professional pilots) in an effort to advance the interests of the profession we all have chosen to the benefit of all. It's not always pretty, but the ugly is IMHO worth the result.

the direction and actions of the WJ pilots is really up to the WJ pilots. I sincerely hope they embrace this opportunity and participate fully in their future as a recognized and effective group. The community needs their input
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#42 Post by yycflyguy » Wed May 17, 2017 8:29 am

Schooner69A wrote:
It was not an easy merge. At one point during a routine route check on a mixed crew taxiing out for departure, a TC inspector advised that if they didn’t get the sh*t together, he would order the aircraft back to the gate…
My Dad used to threaten me and my Sister with that one all the time.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#43 Post by Schooner69A » Fri May 19, 2017 12:16 pm

yycflyguy:

Your dad was an ex-Golden Hawk?
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#44 Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Fri May 19, 2017 12:29 pm

Hi Finn. If you do the research, you will find that a union has to follow its constitution, but is given wide latitude by the courts on how to interpret that constitution. Given the numerous times that ALPA has revised its merger policy, it could have done so as well with its 1956 Executive Board policy on seniority list formation (DOH). It has not revised that policy in the intervening 61 years, only reaffirmed it.

But time will tell. Perhaps Encore will certify too and have a DOH seniority list and WJ will be different and have a non-DOH seniority list. Makes sense...
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#45 Post by Bede » Sat May 20, 2017 5:45 pm

FYI for everyone: Rotten Apple and NewCommercialPilot are the same guy.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#46 Post by True North » Sat May 20, 2017 7:08 pm

Bede wrote:FYI for everyone: Rotten Apple and NewCommercialPilot are the same guy.
We know. Who cares?
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#47 Post by Schooner69A » Sat May 20, 2017 8:59 pm

You donkeys! Now he knows that you know... You shoulda kept stumm!
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#48 Post by Finn » Sat May 20, 2017 9:38 pm

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:Hi Finn. If you do the research, you will find that a union has to follow its constitution, but is given wide latitude by the courts on how to interpret that constitution. Given the numerous times that ALPA has revised its merger policy, it could have done so as well with its 1956 Executive Board policy on seniority list formation (DOH). It has not revised that policy in the intervening 61 years, only reaffirmed it.

But time will tell. Perhaps Encore will certify too and have a DOH seniority list and WJ will be different and have a non-DOH seniority list. Makes sense...

I suggest you fact check yourself as to how the NWA/DAL, UAL/CAL and the upcoming VGA/AAL merger were or will be accommodated and compare that against the Admin/Constitution-bylaws as written. Reality is that the effected groups have a large latitude to tailor their own result to their own circumstance. Again I commend the WJ pilots on their decision, recognize they have some trust to build, but look forward to the vital contribution they have to the betterment of the profession nationally and intentionally.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#49 Post by FenceSitter » Sun May 21, 2017 9:24 am

Bede wrote:FYI for everyone: Rotten Apple and NewCommercialPilot are the same guy.
LMFAO!!!!! To be clear, same human, same employee number, same affinity for speaking with a false German accent over the PA within days of Germanwings 9525, the same human who was saying to "run, not walk" to sign a card less than 6 months ago, the very same.... on all counts. One guy with AT LEAST two accounts on here...talking to himself. It is digital masturbation for everyone else to see. Enjoy the show, not my cup of tea though.
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Re: WJ Pilots seek ALPA unionization vote

#50 Post by YVR Lurker » Mon May 22, 2017 3:42 pm

FenceSitter wrote:
Bede wrote:FYI for everyone: Rotten Apple and NewCommercialPilot are the same guy.
LMFAO!!!!! To be clear, same human, same employee number, same affinity for speaking with a false German accent over the PA within days of Germanwings 9525, the same human who was saying to "run, not walk" to sign a card less than 6 months ago, the very same.... on all counts. One guy with AT LEAST two accounts on here...talking to himself. It is digital masturbation for everyone else to see. Enjoy the show, not my cup of tea though.
I recall this employee saying "run not walk" as well. This was at a time when he was facing some sort of discipline and quickly realized the yellow union he supports wouldn't be able to do anything for him. Jump ahead a few days later and he says ,"ah, it was really nothing, I didn't get in that much trouble, guess I don't need the help of ALPA after all".

So JS, the threat of a union is handy when you think you need it? Is this correct?

And the German accent days after that awful crash? Say it isn't so.

I do like your Beetljuice avatar though, being a Stern fan gets you one point from me.

GM
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