OTS hiring with ALPA?

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PT6onH20
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OTS hiring with ALPA?

#1 Post by PT6onH20 » Fri May 19, 2017 5:36 am

Does anyone have insight on how Mainline OTS hiring will be affected with ALPA being on the property?
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pacman007
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#2 Post by pacman007 » Fri May 19, 2017 8:05 am

Nope...don't think ALPA will let that happen.
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PT6onH20
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#3 Post by PT6onH20 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:25 am

pacman007 wrote:Nope...don't think ALPA will let that happen.
Umm...I didn't ask a yes/ no question.

Do you think that OTS is done?
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#4 Post by truedude » Fri May 19, 2017 11:08 am

PT6onH20 wrote:
pacman007 wrote:Nope...don't think ALPA will let that happen.
Umm...I didn't ask a yes/ no question.

Do you think that OTS is done?

I don't know WestJet specifically, but hiring remains the prerogative of management. They can hire as they see fit, the Union ensures the conditions under which you work once you arrive. So if it suits Westjet to hire OTS, then they will continue to do so.

My two cents anyways.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#5 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri May 19, 2017 11:33 am

Subject to Encore having the ability to release pilots to flow to WJ, the commitment from WJ is to hire at least 25% from Encore. Having ALPA on the property changes none of that. The biggest impact will come from the number of qualified applicants Encore can attract. If experience goes down, it will be harder to release pilots to flow while keeping the Q400's flying.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#6 Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri May 19, 2017 12:28 pm

How does it affect the seniority list though? 2015 Encore hire has seniority over a 2016 Mainline hire when the encore pilot flows over, do they not? Does ALPA now change that dynamic?
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#7 Post by JBI » Fri May 19, 2017 8:38 pm

cdnpilot77 wrote:How does it affect the seniority list though? 2015 Encore hire has seniority over a 2016 Mainline hire when the encore pilot flows over, do they not? Does ALPA now change that dynamic?
In the short term, the answer is no. There is a statutory freeze on working conditions once a group of employees unionizes and again once the union indicates an intention to bargain for a new CBA. The current hiring has been for a mix of Encore and OTS candidates and it should remain so.

In the long run, it depends what gets negotiated between the pilots and the company. Both sides have generally expressed a desire to keep the "one list" as it now stands. However, there are a lot of moving parts and variables. Losing the "one list" would, in my opinion, drastically reduce the number of applicants for Encore and would likely lead to an exodus of current Encore pilots.

Although nothing is guaranteed, I would be surprised to see a significant change from the status quo with regard to the one list.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#8 Post by atphat » Fri May 19, 2017 8:55 pm

The one list is separate from flow. I seriously doubt applicants would dry up for encore if they went BOTL at WJ.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#9 Post by noalternative » Fri May 19, 2017 9:17 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:Subject to Encore having the ability to release pilots to flow to WJ, the commitment from WJ is to hire at least 25% from Encore. Having ALPA on the property changes none of that. The biggest impact will come from the number of qualified applicants Encore can attract. If experience goes down, it will be harder to release pilots to flow while keeping the Q400's flying.
Just to illustrate how out of touch "newCommercialPilot" is, the min is 50%. Keep up the fear mongering. You'd think, that with the way things are, despite our leanings, you'd get on board with the majority to, at least, try to maintain what you've got. NewCommercialPilot, you are treading very dangerous waters, and your antics are endangering everything you've fought so hard for. Despite what you may think, everyone is fighting for the same thing.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#10 Post by Jimmy2 » Fri May 19, 2017 9:48 pm

atphat wrote:The one list is separate from flow. I seriously doubt applicants would dry up for encore if they went BOTL at WJ.
I agree. The minimum 50% flow from Encore will keep people applying there even if they start at mainline at the bottom. Which I do think will happen.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#11 Post by Possiblymaybe » Sat May 20, 2017 3:02 am

It will keep low time guys from coming with oodles of years ahead of them perhaps. But, like me, i came to Encore with many 705 hours as a direct entry captain. I can tell you that if the list DOH is gone so am i. The one date of hire is the only reason i am putting myself and my family through the Encore program. The whole goal is to come to the jet with a number that helps me out personally down the road. I hope it sticks around but if it doesnt its a real slap in the face. There are plenty of other jobs out there for a change. Fingers crossed.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#12 Post by JBI » Sat May 20, 2017 3:29 am

Jimmy2 wrote:
atphat wrote:The one list is separate from flow. I seriously doubt applicants would dry up for encore if they went BOTL at WJ.
I agree. The minimum 50% flow from Encore will keep people applying there even if they start at mainline at the bottom. Which I do think will happen.
Good points. If there was flow but it went to BOTL, applicants wouldn't dry up as much, but I think you'd see a reduction in more experienced pilots applying for the direct entry Capt spots. The ability to upgrade on the jet is definitely a factor considered for the higher time applicants.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#13 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sat May 20, 2017 4:39 am

If I misquoted 25 instead of 50 that was a mistake. If 50 is in Encore' s agreement then 50 it is.

As far as treading dangerous waters, you have no idea what that is like until you have jumped off a 500 foot bridge wearing a BASE rig.

https://youtu.be/lsORiR3k-II
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Last edited by NewCommercialPilot on Sat May 20, 2017 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#14 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sat May 20, 2017 4:53 am

I just checked the WJ pilot agreement and section 10.3 it refers to a 25 percent flow rate. Was there a LOU that amended the rate? I had no intention of misquoting the number.

Keep up the ad hominem attacks though, I'm starting to get off on them.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#15 Post by atphat » Sat May 20, 2017 7:00 am

No one is going to WJ for a quick upgrade JBI. They'll have the better part of a decade or even more to think about it.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#16 Post by rudder » Sat May 20, 2017 7:27 am

atphat wrote:No one is going to WJ for a quick upgrade JBI. They'll have the better part of a decade or even more to think about it.
There is a much quicker upgrade available at AC.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#17 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Sat May 20, 2017 10:38 am

Dave Pobran posted this Dec 10, 2015 in the thread WestJet Mainline/Encore Hiring pool-page 17.

So it must have changed John.

Hello there,
I believe WJE will be calling with offers for its 1st class in Feb today and tomorrow.

WJ's first class in January was offered earlier this week with the second class in January being offered next week - towards the end.

As for a WJ posting, we still don't see a reason to open the posting in the near future.(maybe not in 2016 at all) With flow increasing in the new agreement to 50% minimum (should it be voted in with the new pilot agreement in hand at WJE) we have enough recently interviewed pilots to supply the 2016 direct entry to WJ demand - as our next course isn't scheduled until April. Subject to change as usual!

Cheers
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#18 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sat May 20, 2017 11:09 am

Awesome! I'm sure it will continue to be more than 50%. It is in WJ's best interest to keep the flow going as strongly as possible.

Thanks for the update!
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#19 Post by Maritimer » Sat May 20, 2017 11:52 am

Get rid of date of hire and keep flow, increase it even. BOTL for flow guys. It is the only way there won't be major problems down the road.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#20 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sat May 20, 2017 3:32 pm

Maritimer wrote:Get rid of date of hire and keep flow, increase it even. BOTL for flow guys. It is the only way there won't be major problems down the road.
Well, if you mean get rid of Encore flow pilots keeping their DOH, then there are 150-200 OTS pilot hired since 2014 who would recommend that avenue. If you flowed from Encore you would not. ALPA's DOH policy was designed to eliminate controversy down the road in event of a merger, and their merger policy reflects that as well.

ALPA will strongly encourage WJ MEC to adopt a traditional DOH policy, even if it means making it seem, through surveys, that it is the will of the majority that will bring in that policy. I'm not sure what the majority of WJ pilots would give up in terms of negotiating power in order to maintain the One List. The union members will likely follow traditional thought patterns of what it's in it for me. It's already shown up in ways that would not have under the WJPA.

On the other hand, if the One List suffers its demise under ALPA's first CBA, then ALPA will have motivated a group of ready made de-certification supporters ready to pull the trigger as soon as they get the chance. That group would get larger with each class, but would be offset by OTS hires who would love true DOH.

And if you try to go against 61 year old ALPA Executive Board policy and keep the One List, you are looking at legal challenges from the OTS cohort. Not that I think that the ALPA President would ever allow such a thing (One List in a CBA).

If Encore pilots certify, they will most certainly would lose the support of management in pressing for the One List. If the Encore pilots remain unorganized, management might feel a duty to press for the One List in negotiations with the WJ pilots. Certify, and they are likely not to have any motivation one way or the other.

That's how it looks from this perch.

Cheers
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#21 Post by True North » Sat May 20, 2017 4:21 pm

noalternative wrote:Just to illustrate how out of touch "newCommercialPilot" is, the min is 50%. Keep up the fear mongering. You'd think, that with the way things are, despite our leanings, you'd get on board with the majority to, at least, try to maintain what you've got. NewCommercialPilot, you are treading very dangerous waters, and your antics are endangering everything you've fought so hard for. Despite what you may think, everyone is fighting for the same thing.
:lol: Priceless.

Once the bargaining begins for your first CBA, you come back and tell us that again. I have talked to about a dozen WJ pilots since the vote, they were split right down the middle on the seniority issue. Just one tiny indicator.

Good luck. You're going to need it.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#22 Post by Jean-Pierre » Sat May 20, 2017 5:24 pm

If I was management I would cancel one list today. That way 50% of pilot joining mainline hate ALPA. Best way to bust the union. Sure Encore pilot are threatening to quit without it but realistically where are they going to go?
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#23 Post by Bede » Sat May 20, 2017 5:47 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:If I was management I would cancel one list today. That way 50% of pilot joining mainline hate ALPA. Best way to bust the union. Sure Encore pilot are threatening to quit without it but realistically where are they going to go?
Nonsense. They'd hate the company, not ALPA. The company needs the one list more than the pilots do. Without it, recruitment would all but dry up. They have a hard enough time recruiting qualified guys. Where would they go? Anywhere these days.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#24 Post by Jean-Pierre » Sat May 20, 2017 6:35 pm

Bede wrote: Where would they go? Anywhere these days.
Such as? Give up their place in line for flow and start all over again at Jazz? Go back up north with no future?
I'm sure they have all already applied to AC and other big jet operator already and have failed or are still waiting. One list was just a bonus anyway not a reason anybody made their decision to join Encore on. It is flow that matter.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#25 Post by prestonlad » Sat May 20, 2017 8:29 pm

I work for Jazz and can only add that if west jet mainline pilots decide to ring fence the list and force encore guys to the bottom of the list its totally understandable ( selfishness notwithstanding ) after all thats exactly how it goes between jazz and AC. lets be fair here , the sheer fact of having a flow is considerably better than AC's " come to jazz and get an interview at air canada " approach. ( less than 20% succeed under this new deal ). If I were young and ambitious I would vastly prefer the relatively honest west jet approach ( join encore and you are in ) over the AC deal ( Join a tier three and we will " think about it " policy ) That strikes me as dishonest but thats just me I suppose...
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