OTS hiring with ALPA?

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JBI
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#26 Post by JBI » Sat May 20, 2017 9:30 pm

atphat wrote:No one is going to WJ for a quick upgrade JBI. They'll have the better part of a decade or even more to think about it.
atphat, I'm afraid I have to disagree. While I wouldn't phrase it as looking for a "quick upgrade", there are a number of Encore DEC Captains with 705 and even jet time who chose to come to Encore as Captain with the ability to have their seniority counted towards an upgrade on the jet. While no, it's not a "quick" upgrade, it's arguably a different situation than going to Jazz and then having to start over with BOTL at AC.

Case in point is the post directly above my previous post:
Possiblymaybe wrote: ... i came to Encore with many 705 hours as a direct entry captain. I can tell you that if the list DOH is gone so am i. The one date of hire is the only reason i am putting myself and my family through the Encore program. The whole goal is to come to the jet with a number that helps me out personally down the road. I hope it sticks around but if it doesnt its a real slap in the face. There are plenty of other jobs out there for a change.
If the upgrade on the jet gets pushed back by a number of years, over the course of a career, there may be more lucrative positions at other regionals or corporate gigs. It simply changes the equation.

The interesting thing is that, for the moment, Encore doesn't really have a pay scale past year 4 or 5 (there are provisions but not a set scale). Whereas, my understanding is that Jazz has up to year 12. The pay scale at Jazz is more conducive to spending a career there than Encore's is. In my opinion, this will have to change as Encore matures (even if there is no change to DOH and one list.

Although I agree with some of the posts above that a flow with BOTL (and no extra interviews) would still be attractive to some applicants. In my opinion though, losing the DOH would result in a number of pilots leaving and a severe reduction in direct entry Captain applicants. Not everyone is in a hurry to fly the jet at the BOTL.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#27 Post by rudder » Sun May 21, 2017 6:54 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:ALPA's DOH policy was designed to eliminate controversy down the road in event of a merger, and their merger policy reflects that as well.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

There is no mention of DOH in the ALPA Merger Policy other than compilation and exchange of data. The basis for integrating lists in the event of arbitration describes 'factors' that must be considered. DOH is not one of them.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#28 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun May 21, 2017 1:08 pm

rudder wrote:
NewCommercialPilot wrote:ALPA's DOH policy was designed to eliminate controversy down the road in event of a merger, and their merger policy reflects that as well.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

There is no mention of DOH in the ALPA Merger Policy other than compilation and exchange of data. The basis for integrating lists in the event of arbitration describes 'factors' that must be considered. DOH is not one of them.
For more info on the controversy created when one list has members not in order of DOH, check out the Continental/United merger and specifically to portions of Continental's list.

In the meantime, check out the bold sections here. Some of it is word for word identical to ALPA's 61 year old Executive Board policy on seniority list construction (non merger).

Cheers

SENIORITY LIST INTEGRATION

1. Each MEC is encouraged to have a standing Merger Committee at all times. The Merger Committee for each MEC shall consist of at least two but not more than four merger representatives elected by the MEC from the active members in good standing on its seniority list. In the event an MEC fails to elect merger representatives within ten days following the PID, the President may, at his discretion and subject to an opportunity for the affected MEC to be heard by him, appoint any active member of ALPA in good standing from the affected airline to fill any merger representative vacancy. These representatives shall have complete and full authority to act for and on behalf of the flight deck crew members of their respective airlines for the purpose of concluding a single flight deck crew member seniority list and appropriate conditions and restrictions, which shall not be subject to ratification. Nothing herein is intended to limit the discretion of respective MECs in the selection or replacement of their merger representatives prior to the election of merged MEC officers.

a. There shall be an annual orientation program for all merger representatives conducted under the supervision of the Vice President-Administration/Secretary, which in his discretion may be conducted in person, by telephone or by electronic format.

2. Compilation of Employment Data

a. Each MEC will maintain a system seniority list including at least the following data: seniority number, name, date of hire, and date of birth.

b. The merger representatives shall be responsible for determining the date of hire, date of birth, seniority number, furlough time and leaves of absence time for each flight deck crew member on its current seniority list utilizing Company payroll records and/or other records as necessary. ALPA staff may be utilized to compile this data. Each furlough and leave of absence or any intervening periods of service other than as a flight deck crew member with this Company shall be listed separately with an explanation covering the period. Furlough time directly related to a labor dispute or work stoppage, ALPA leaves, military leaves, FMLA (or Canadian equivalent) leaves and sick leaves shall not be included.

c. In cases where one or more parties to the merger has flight deck crew members with grandfather or similar special rights by agreement with ALPA that are limited as to job classification or status within the flight deck crew, employment data with respect to said special classification or rights shall also be compiled

d. The date of hire shall be the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company’s payroll as a pilot and also begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations. Pilots who initially function as flight deck crew members in positions other than that of a pilot, but whose working agreement allows normal progression in accordance with seniority to pilot status, shall be considered as being employed as a pilot for purposes of this Section. Persons who initially function as flight deck crew members, but in a classification which did not allow normal progression to pilot status in accordance with seniority, and who have subsequently gained the right of progression to pilot status by agreement with ALPA, shall acquire date of hire as a pilot as of the date specified by such agreement. Where an initial date of hire as a flight deck crew member is different from an initial date of hire as a pilot as defined above, both sets of data, together with explanations, shall be compiled for the purpose of resolving any inconsistencies among the parties to the merger with respect to special rights for such individuals.

e. Verification of employment data described above shall be accomplished as soon as possible after compilation in the manner set forth in Part 3C 3 below, regardless of whether seniority list integration is being undertaken pursuant to the procedures set forth in this policy or alternative procedures under an agreement between the involved MECs pursuant to Part 2C 1a(1) above.

3. Verification and Exchange of Employment Data

a. The merger representatives will commence the verification and updating of employment data of those flight deck crew members not previously verified and updated no later than the PID.

b. The merger representatives shall forward the individual employment data described in Part 3C 2 via certified mail, Return Receipt Requested, to each non-verified and non-updated flight deck crew member within twenty (20) days of the PID, provided that the merger representatives may forward such data by email, with provision for electronic return receipt, to those flight deck crew members who have designated electronic communications as their preference for receiving ALPA communications. The merger representatives shall also post such data as to all flight deck crew members on their MEC website in a manner providing for access by all flight deck crew members.

c. It is the responsibility of the individual flight deck crew member to verify or challenge the findings of the merger representatives within twenty (20) days following receipt and to support his protest, if any, by written statement of fact. In addition, such protesting member may request a hearing before the merger representatives. All such timely requests shall be granted. Any flight deck crew member may transmit such verification or challenge or request for a hearing by email, in which case the merger representatives may use email to schedule a requested hearing and advise the flight deck crew member of their decision by email.

d. The merger representatives will receive and evaluate all protests and will adjudge the validity of the claims. Their decision will be final and such decision shall be in writing and shall be forwarded to the flight deck crew member making the protest within ten (10) days following receipt or following completion of the hearing, if any, by the means outlined above.

e. Upon completion of the processes outlined above, the merger representatives shall prepare a certified Flight Deck Crew Member Seniority List which shall reflect the proper relative position of each member thereon. Such list shall contain that data described in Part 3C 2b.

f. Employment data verified as outlined above shall be exchanged no later than sixty (60) days following the PID. For purposes of this initial exchange of data, said data need not pertain to events more recent than the date of the first Company notification of intent to merge.

g. Additional employment data pertinent to the solution of integration problems shall be made available to all merger representatives.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#29 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Sun May 21, 2017 4:02 pm

So as you see Rudder, the two merger groups exchange employment data to verify the date of hire info. Why do that? And when they do that with WJ's list, do you think the other side will just go "ah" and move on?

So WJ's One List for all post May 2014 hired pilots is basically a mess if you try to integrate it with another group that is ordered by DOH. WJ's One List is exactly what the 61 year old Executive Board was designed to avoid.

And if you think about It, if our first ALPA CBA had seniority bidding for monthly schedules and vacation etc, while retaining the One List, an OTS pilot hired today into YYZ base with WJ would remain at the BOTL until all Encore pilots on strength today (400?) have flowed over to mainline before he could move off the BOTL for bidding and getting off reserve etc. 400 pilots. And only then does he start moving up the list and work less than 20 days a month.

Not only was the One List designed and suitable only for a non-union environment, it is simply unworkable with ALPA and with seniority bidding etc.

The former Encore pilots who voted for ALPA have been conned.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#30 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun May 21, 2017 5:03 pm

I'm quite happy with ALPA. But that's just me.. and maybe you know thousands of other pilots.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#31 Post by .80@410 » Sun May 21, 2017 5:04 pm

Sheesh let it go.
No one has been conned.

ALPA isn't coming in and railroading 1800 pilots wishes into "their" way .

Darn broken record. Luckily most have tuned it out.

Why not focus on preventing the degradation of Wawcon in the industry and focus
On how to prevent Mr S. from paying all the ULCC pilots lower wages than the current mainline pilots ?

Now THaT would be something I would actually read. Along with others .
. It would be a more useful fight and a way to put all that extra time and energy of yours to better use.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#32 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun May 21, 2017 5:11 pm

prestonlad wrote:I work for Jazz and can only add that if west jet mainline pilots decide to ring fence the list and force encore guys to the bottom of the list its totally understandable ( selfishness notwithstanding ) after all thats exactly how it goes between jazz and AC. lets be fair here , the sheer fact of having a flow is considerably better than AC's " come to jazz and get an interview at air canada " approach. ( less than 20% succeed under this new deal ). If I were young and ambitious I would vastly prefer the relatively honest west jet approach ( join encore and you are in ) over the AC deal ( Join a tier three and we will " think about it " policy ) That strikes me as dishonest but thats just me I suppose...

You knew what you were saying yes to when you took the job.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#33 Post by rudder » Sun May 21, 2017 6:20 pm

NewCommercialPilot wrote:So as you see Rudder, the two merger groups exchange employment data to verify the date of hire info. Why do that? And when they do that with WJ's list, do you think the other side will just go "ah" and move on?
Do not confuse employment data with criteria to be used in constructing an integrated seniority list. The particulars of the WJ list submitted will be considered by the other party to the merger and the arbitrator(s) as necessary. Regardless, no individual list can be reordered. There are not many strict DOH lists left out there given all of the pilot list merger activity of the last two decades. DOH is not specifically included in the mandatory 'factors' for consideration in the ALPA Merger Policy (longevity remains).

For example, the AC Pilot seniority list is no longer strict DOH. And the CDN seniority list submitted to the arbitrator included issues associated with the hire dates on record of the former CRA pilots that flowed to CDN. It was all considered and settled by the arbitrator. The CDN list was not reordered. DOH for AC pilots applies to travel priority, vacation entitlement, etc but not to relative position. ACPA no longer publishes DOH on its pilot seniority list as it has become irrelevant to relative pilot seniority. As a matter of fact, over time AC has held vacant seniority positions for pilots not yet active at AC including most recently as part of their pilot mobility arrangement with Jazz. In some cases, the Jazz pilot DOH is two years later than the OTS pilot next on the list.

Whether the WJ pilots want to use seniority for schedule or vacation bidding is a completely separate matter. But as far as merger is concerned, whatever certified list the WJ merger reps bring to the process will be scrutinized, validated, and will ultimately form part of the final merged list. If there are reserved numbers, that will be subject to negotiation and if necessary arbitration. That is what happened in the recent AA/US merger for Eagle flow pilots with reserved numbers not yet on the property at the policy initiation date.
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Re: OTS hiring with ALPA?

#34 Post by prestonlad » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:29 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:
prestonlad wrote:I work for Jazz and can only add that if west jet mainline pilots decide to ring fence the list and force encore guys to the bottom of the list its totally understandable ( selfishness notwithstanding ) after all thats exactly how it goes between jazz and AC. lets be fair here , the sheer fact of having a flow is considerably better than AC's " come to jazz and get an interview at air canada " approach. ( less than 20% succeed under this new deal ). If I were young and ambitious I would vastly prefer the relatively honest west jet approach ( join encore and you are in ) over the AC deal ( Join a tier three and we will " think about it " policy ) That strikes me as dishonest but thats just me I suppose...

You knew what you were saying yes to when you took the job.
Interesting point . Here's the thing , I'm no spring chicken and was not interested in AC when I took the job at Jazz . However it's more or less indisputable that Air Canada have been less than transparent with the new hires at jazz in the way they dangled the PML 2 carrot . I've spoken to many a newer hire who was totally deceived by the inducement process . It remains to be seen how many jazz new hires get to flow to AC but the uncertainty is without doubt unpleasant and could derail hiring at Jazz . Just my 2 bob .
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