Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

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Mach1
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Mach1 »

BE20 Driver wrote:I'll admit that I poked the bear earlier
You did... and it resulted in a full on containment failure on my part so I gave myself a time out.

I don't have all the answers because I don't have all the facts. I think it will be difficult to fill those seats but you are right, someone might do it. I find the idea of patients lacking.... it's a long career and sometimes you have to play the long game to get better rewards. I'm not advocating lower pay for anyone, which is why I hope no one applies to work there until the wages are fair market value and not discounted. Which means... some people may have to say no to advancing into the left seat for 703 wages until the time is right and that means patients. The old axiom "The toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow" comes to mind.

Personally, I believe we all need more money and I will never say any different. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out and if ALPA can have a positive effect on the outcome. If they can't, then it is incumbent upon everyone who looks at this job to think very carefully about not only the short term but the long term career implications this company represents.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by SnotRocket »

express315 wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:
skypirate88 wrote:I sure hope the bank can give me a loan for my 737 type rating...maybe use my house as collateral. I'd really like to fly the 737 and don't mind pink.

How low are we going to go? I have never seen hiring like this in my career, and yet we have what I thought was a respectable company trying to drive down wawcon even further. I sure hope this isn't going to be a carrot dangled in front of the Encore group to stop them from joining ALPA
I agree with you to some extent, but remember, flying as an F/O on a Dash or Q at any of the "regionals" doesn't pay that great anymore. Anyone with half a brain would pick Jazz, Encore or Porter over Swoop, but as long as Flair can get 737 pilots, this Swoop will be able to get them too. Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.
Flair is loosing pilots at the same rate as they hire them. Wonder when the pool is going to dry out.
They may be able to find pilots, but quality? Wonder what the failure rate is like or are they pushing people through?
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Rowdy »

I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by infiniteregulus »

It ends when we say it ends. No pilots, no flying, no money. (Until AI takes over...)
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by North Shore »

Rowdy wrote:I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...

Rowdy, you can't have it both ways, man. If the sandbox is slavery, and China is garbage, then if your management says 20% haircut next year, or hit the road, then what are you going to do?
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Rowdy »

North Shore wrote:
Rowdy wrote:I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...

Rowdy, you can't have it both ways, man. If the sandbox is slavery, and China is garbage, then if your management says 20% haircut next year, or hit the road, then what are you going to do?
I get what you're saying, and maybe I was misconstrued...

My point is, the two major carriers in this country are not stepping stones and should not, ever, be treated by anyone as such. There are still incredible fiscal opportunities outside of the country.

There IS a global shortage, and if we as the group start treating it the way it should, perhaps we could see both wages here and working conditions over there improve!
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by complexintentions »

Rowdy wrote:My point is, the two major carriers in this country are not stepping stones and should not, ever, be treated by anyone as such. There are still incredible fiscal opportunities outside of the country.
Sorry, but your statements seem to contradict. If the incredible fiscal opportunities are outside the country, why wouldn't the domestic carriers be used as stepping stones to get to them? A global shortage doesn't necessarily mean a shortage in Canada - especially if people stay to avoid the "slavery and garbage", right?

I can't follow who you're placing the blame on - the pilots or the companies? Just seems like economics to me. If they can offer less pay and still crew their flights, it'll happen. And they WILL get the crew.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Rowdy »

complex, It is a two sided issue. We as a pilot group are so incredibly distracted and self absorbed, that there is zero unity. The operations that employ airline pilots know this and take advantage of it and even try to further divide the groups. When, as a group of so called professionals will we actually start acting like it? Case in point, the mindless bickering in the other thread about a bloody go around.

I would view EK and the like as stepping stones. Get your money and get out. You don't build a retirement home in dubai. They won't let you.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by infiniteregulus »

Then let's take ACTION! Paralysis by analysis - nobody seems to be doing anything about it. How can we actually fix this? It's great discussing problems, but we need solutions!
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by dumbbell daddy »

Rowdy wrote:I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?
Awesome dude. Sounds like you have first hand info? How many 737/777 contracts have you completed in China? Was it after you did 5 years in DXB on the triple?
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by WF9F »

You guys better not give in to do the work for 20% less like pilots at Rouge. Let them put as many seats on it as they want but if you split the pilot group like we have you will have the same Cancer that we have , just a different name.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by complexintentions »

Rowdy wrote:complex, It is a two sided issue. We as a pilot group are so incredibly distracted and self absorbed, that there is zero unity. The operations that employ airline pilots know this and take advantage of it and even try to further divide the groups. When, as a group of so called professionals will we actually start acting like it? Case in point, the mindless bickering in the other thread about a bloody go around.

I would view EK and the like as stepping stones. Get your money and get out. You don't build a retirement home in dubai. They won't let you.
By this logic, aren't all jobs stepping stones to retirement? I can make a pretty strong case that my retirement has been greatly enhanced by being outside of Canada rather than within it, but experiences vary.

To your other point, I have to say that if you expect pilots - or any employees, in any industry - to act in anything other than their individual interests you will be sorely disappointed. The only "unity" you will ever see will be to try and further that.

New pilots are not interested in subsidizing the lifestyles of previous ones, and established pilots aren't about to give up a thing to help the new ones. So if you're an employer where do you look to reduce costs? Start something new and offer less - the price point will be established by the market. And so there's Swoop. And Rouge. And Encore. etc etc.

"Career" employers are a dying breed, not just in aviation.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

complexintentions has it figured out. People either decide to take the jobs under the offered conditions or they don't. There is no banding together by employees to set a labour rate that is divorced from market forces. That is an illusion sold by labour unions and bought into or dreamed by the likes of some of the posters in this thread. If the career has not turned out to be what you thought, perhaps it's time for a reality check.

For all the moaning about Rouge lowering working conditions for the pilots at mainline Air Canada, it has obviously worked for Air Canada. Look at the stock price performance to see how the market has rewarded the stock holders. Despite what is oft repeated by union afficionados, pilot wage and benefit costs do factor in the overall cost equation.

The ULCC at WestJet will likewise go ahead according to the minimum labour rate that the controlling shareholders and its management team believe can be done safely and reliably. The labour market will decide whether employee turnover is manageable.

But do go back to all your talk about unity among pilots. It's terribly amusing for us who know better.

Solidarity!!
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Air.Field »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: For all the moaning about Rouge lowering working conditions for the pilots at mainline Air Canada, it has obviously worked for Air Canada. Look at the stock price performance to see how the market has rewarded the stock holders. Despite what is oft repeated by union afficionados, pilot wage and benefit costs do factor in the overall cost equation.
To be fair, while CR and GS have done a good job on making money for their respective airlines, however, a monkey could successfully run an airline in this environment. Don't know how over in Europe a few carriers and a certain Asian carrier manage to drop the ball. But really, with low oil prices, economies running full steam, growing populations, still low interests rates, it's hard not to make money in the airline biz.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by .80@410 »

Newcommercialpilot wrote:

"But do go back to all your talk about unity among pilots. It's terribly amusing for us who know better."

Ah yes. Just how you knew better that encore would lose the one lost under Alpa and how anything else was impossible . Oh ... wait .. Bearskin just proved otherwise with Jazz and ALPA.

Keep spouting... until you are proved wrong.. again. :roll:


Not all of us are in this just for ourselves.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Shady McSly »

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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by Realitychex »

Air.Field wrote:
NewCommercialPilot wrote: For all the moaning about Rouge lowering working conditions for the pilots at mainline Air Canada, it has obviously worked for Air Canada. Look at the stock price performance to see how the market has rewarded the stock holders. Despite what is oft repeated by union afficionados, pilot wage and benefit costs do factor in the overall cost equation.
To be fair, while CR and GS have done a good job on making money for their respective airlines, however, a monkey could successfully run an airline in this environment. Don't know how over in Europe a few carriers and a certain Asian carrier manage to drop the ball. But really, with low oil prices, economies running full steam, growing populations, still low interests rates, it's hard not to make money in the airline biz.

If that were the case, why are all the new entrants still unable to secure capital?

You might not like Swoop, but I'll guarantee you'll despise the alternative provided someone with a brain comes up with a decent plan and has the smarts to know how to execute it.

Better to deal with the devil you know, and make sure they succeed.

If they don't, I predict a lot of low seniority pilots restarting their careers in 3-5 years at the bottom of the barrel.

8)
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by HansDietrich »

Rowdy wrote:
North Shore wrote:
Rowdy wrote:I love this, air canada and wj being referred to as stepping stones. To what? Slavery at Emirates and Qatar? The absolute GARBAGE that is the chinese contracts?

There is a global pilot shortage and the airlines are looking at this thinking they can lower the bar even further. Why? we eat our young here...

Rowdy, you can't have it both ways, man. If the sandbox is slavery, and China is garbage, then if your management says 20% haircut next year, or hit the road, then what are you going to do?
I get what you're saying, and maybe I was misconstrued...

My point is, the two major carriers in this country are not stepping stones and should not, ever, be treated by anyone as such. There are still incredible fiscal opportunities outside of the country.

There IS a global shortage, and if we as the group start treating it the way it should, perhaps we could see both wages here and working conditions over there improve!
- What's the starting wage at Air Canada for 1st year F/Os on an A320?
- How many years at AC before you start making a reasonable salary? (And how much does "Trudeau" take away?)
- How does that compare to the cost of living in YVR, YYC, YYZ, YUL?

You'll quickly realize that AC and WJ are really not as attractive as they used to be. Are they the best Canada has to offer? Sadly, yes.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by atphat »

Realitychex wrote:
Air.Field wrote:
NewCommercialPilot wrote: For all the moaning about Rouge lowering working conditions for the pilots at mainline Air Canada, it has obviously worked for Air Canada. Look at the stock price performance to see how the market has rewarded the stock holders. Despite what is oft repeated by union afficionados, pilot wage and benefit costs do factor in the overall cost equation.
To be fair, while CR and GS have done a good job on making money for their respective airlines, however, a monkey could successfully run an airline in this environment. Don't know how over in Europe a few carriers and a certain Asian carrier manage to drop the ball. But really, with low oil prices, economies running full steam, growing populations, still low interests rates, it's hard not to make money in the airline biz.

If that were the case, why are all the new entrants still unable to secure capital?

You might not like Swoop, but I'll guarantee you'll despise the alternative provided someone with a brain comes up with a decent plan and has the smarts to know how to execute it.

Better to deal with the devil you know, and make sure they succeed.

If they don't, I predict a lot of low seniority pilots restarting their careers in 3-5 years at the bottom of the barrel.

8)
Fear. Fear. Fear. Work for less. Compete. Work for less. Fear. Damn the industry standard. This is the mantra of WJ management. Sadly the pilot groups are only too eager to oblige.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

.80@410 wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:07 pm
Not all of us are in this just for ourselves.
Oh right. This is the part of the discussion where you tell me how bad I am, and at the same time you signal how virtuous you are. Once you get your finger out of your nostril, perhaps you can illustrate the latter with some of the magnanimity you feel you possess.

Regarding the ALPA thing, the final chapter hasn't been written on the Jazz situation. Who knows how things will look when all the industry movement slows down. Positing for a second that the Jazz MEC had contravened ALPA policy (I haven't looked at the matter in depth), who would bother with any action if it doesn't affect the person because they were planning to leave Jazz for greener pastures?

As far as Encore goes, let's wait and see how that plays out in two years when the first contract is signed, shall we?
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