Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

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HansDietrich
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#51 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:26 am

atphat wrote:Hate on Canadians wanting to live in Canada and raise their families here all you want. I make a pretty good living and I don’t have to live in the garbage sandbox or China. Which looks and sounds like a dream let me tell you.

Moving on....... Swoop rhymes with poop. Sounds like WJ got as much marketing buck as they payed for it. Nice. 8)
You're the one that "hates" on other countries dude. Everyone has a lifestyle and expectation. It's harder for Canadians to uproot and move elsewhere. For now, Canada is still (overall) one of the best countries to live in. I don't deny that. For people like myself that were not born in Canada and lived a long time elsewhere, it's easier to pick up and go. We've already been uprooted, and someone like myself, from Western Europe, we came to Canada not because our home country was as you may refer to it "a garbage______", but rather because we wanted a change, adventure or just economic opportunities. If they arise elsewhere, and are willing to put up with some of the cons they come with, then why not?

I don't think EK, Fly Dubai or anywhere else they work you to death is an option for me. I value my free time a lot more than I value money, but some people just want to go and make a quick buck, fly some top of the line heavy metal then come home and buy a house with cash (yeah, not Toronto... but Barrie maybe). Slave to the bank, slave to the Arabs... pick your poison.

Now back to Swoop... Yeah... nothing more to say. We all know how we feel, but it's not like we're sitting on the moral high horse.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#52 Post by atphat » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:19 am

Ok dude.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#53 Post by groundpilot » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:55 am

skybaron wrote:Here we go.

From an outsider looking in, it's obvious that their proposed staffing will
likely want to come from Encore. It's a brutal blow to our industry no matter how this is sliced... unless we remain strong in our commitment to shed the bs of this industry and trying to reduce WAWCON.

The best thing for WJ Pilots right now would be to negotiate that ALL flying for the "3" companies be done solely by WJ Pilots. Same WAWCON regardless of type of aircraft. If positions have to be jockeyed within - so be it.

2 cents.
There is no doubt they see their pool of Encore pilots as their main source for staffing. Encore is youngest group of pilots in all of North America at an average age of 27.

However, we are starting to see the exodus to AC and their hiring is only going to ramp up. WJ will no way agree to one WAWCON. One has to wonder if they are on the same course as Ryan Air.

The key will be steering away from any kind of commitment (training bonds) besides the pink/teal Koolaid and "owners" go to the highest bidder.

AC would love to get some young 737 pilots in the near future. And I'm sure overseas will be no different.

Only when they realize it's cheaper to actually pay their pilots what they deserve and not having them groom planes like cleaners (maybe they can save some costs and have "owners" clean their hotel rooms??) will pay/conditions improve.

There still seems to be this "stuck in the past" mentality about pilots. There is a real shortage out there and as long as we are loyal to ourselves and family (vice a corporation) and go to the company that will offer us the best lifestyle, companies will have no choice but to get their head out of their arse.

Look no further than what is happening to the south. The industry is under a major re alignment with signing bonuses, pay improvements, flow, retirement benefits, etc.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#54 Post by infiniteregulus » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:28 pm

Where's OUR lobby group? I see companies advertising at air shows and high schools all the time. They're trying to skew the public and young blood of what's going on and indoctrinate them before they even start their PPLs! ALPA, ACPA, and the safer skies thing are doing the best they can, but they still have an agenda for their respective workforces. There needs to be more exposure!
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#55 Post by SnotRocket » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:05 pm

65% of mainline wages? Where can I get some of this pink lemonade.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#56 Post by BE20 Driver » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:14 pm

HansDietrich wrote:Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.
You spelled 350K wrong. If you're heading overseas with 737 PIC time, you would be an idiot to fly for 150k. FO jobs overseas pay more than that. Hell, there's currently a posting for a 737 Direct entry captain job in China that only requires Dash8 Captain time and it pays about $285k CAD (net of all taxes). Compare that to 53% of your Canadian Captain salary going to fund Trudeau's hair products and Star Wars sock collection.

Yes, you can Swoop in and get some narrow body PIC time and then Swoop overseas to actually make a living.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#57 Post by BE20 Driver » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:16 pm

North Shore wrote:They'll get pilots at 65%, for sure; as I see it, the big question is will they keep them?

We can't keep them now. 10% of Encore went to big red over the summer. That's before any of them flowed up to mainline.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#58 Post by BE20 Driver » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:25 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:Actually, according to this, we don't even rank in the top 11.

http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/11-hi ... ts-448719/

11.Switzerland, 10.Kuwait, 9.Sweden, 8.Japan, 7.USA, 6.Italy, 5.Australia, 4.UK, 3.Hong Kong, 2.UAE, 1.Bahrain
Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#59 Post by wing yam » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:41 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
North Shore wrote:They'll get pilots at 65%, for sure; as I see it, the big question is will they keep them?

We can't keep them now. 10% of Encore went to big red over the summer. That's before any of them flowed up to mainline.

10% ???As far as I know 3 left in July and 6 in September, last time I checked we were around 450 pilots. Its more like 2%. Sad but Im sure Swoop will do just fine.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#60 Post by DanWEC » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:01 pm

Uh oh, whenever someone is mentioned in the same sentence as GGN it's never a good thing.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#61 Post by infiniteregulus » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:10 pm

You've said the forbidden G word on avcanada. Now this thread is going to be deleted like all the other ones! :lol:
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#62 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:20 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.
You spelled 350K wrong. If you're heading overseas with 737 PIC time, you would be an idiot to fly for 150k. FO jobs overseas pay more than that. Hell, there's currently a posting for a 737 Direct entry captain job in China that only requires Dash8 Captain time and it pays about $285k CAD (net of all taxes). Compare that to 53% of your Canadian Captain salary going to fund Trudeau's hair products and Star Wars sock collection.

Yes, you can Swoop in and get some narrow body PIC time and then Swoop overseas to actually make a living.
Well, I was referring to F/O salaries. Never did I mention captain. At Emirates that's the average, with an upgrade of 6 - 7 years. F/Os in the ME and Asia can make over 150K a year. A captain, as you mentioned, makes well over that.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#63 Post by Boreas » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:25 pm

infiniteregulus wrote:You've said the forbidden G word on avcanada. Now this thread is going to be deleted like all the other ones! :lol:
+1
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#64 Post by JBI » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:17 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-
Interesting! From what I can tell, however, the job has to be based in a remote location in Australia:
Excludes positions that are not located in regional Australia – that is, positions located in: Sydney, Newcastle, Wollongong, Melbourne metropolitan area, Greater Brisbane area, or the Gold Coast.
I may be reading that wrong as I have not spent much time going over Australian Immigration regulations.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#65 Post by x-wind » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:31 pm

rudder wrote:

"Tell me again why Asia and ME pays so highly for pilots and North America does not??[/quote]

Actually, the US does pay. Just check out he legacy rates effective in 2018. Without currency adjustment: 25-30% above Canada. With currency adjustment: closer to 40-50% higher.

The deficiency lies in Canada. Thanks in part to tilted arbitrations and abuse of power by the former Conservative government. And thanks in part to the inability of Canadian pilots to speak and act with one voice.

Perhaps things will change. Perhaps not."


Best post in thread so far.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#66 Post by skybaron » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:42 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:Also, if your goal is to go overseas and fly heavy metal, a 737NG type rating and 500 hrs on type is almost a guarantee job, making over 150K a year somewhere in Asia or the ME.

So, it is an attractive offer but only as a stepping stone to those who want to move on quickly.
You spelled 350K wrong. If you're heading overseas with 737 PIC time, you would be an idiot to fly for 150k. FO jobs overseas pay more than that. Hell, there's currently a posting for a 737 Direct entry captain job in China that only requires Dash8 Captain time and it pays about $285k CAD (net of all taxes). Compare that to 53% of your Canadian Captain salary going to fund Trudeau's hair products and Star Wars sock collection.

Yes, you can Swoop in and get some narrow body PIC time and then Swoop overseas to actually make a living.

Though very true, it's the "go overseas and double your money" marketing scheme that helps attract people to work for lower WAWCON. Direct Entry Embraer jobs at Sky were filled quite nicely with people that bought the idea. Who can blame them? But, that was then, and this is now.

The growing shortage is global, and there should be zero need to suffer shitty conditions at cancer ULCC's just to provide yourselves with a lifestyle that you've earned and is long overdue. If you want to scratch an itch and work in another continent, so be it - but, you shouldn't have to.

To my friends at WJ - One pilot group to fly ALL machines in the Holdings company's fleet. By this time, we've all seen how fair and well B or C scale salaries and conditions work. Encore is in your mirror.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#67 Post by BE20 Driver » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:44 pm

JBI wrote:
BE20 Driver wrote:
Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-
Interesting! From what I can tell, however, the job has to be based in a remote location in Australia:
Excludes positions that are not located in regional Australia – that is, positions located in: Sydney, Newcastle, Wollongong, Melbourne metropolitan area, Greater Brisbane area, or the Gold Coast.
I may be reading that wrong as I have not spent much time going over Australian Immigration regulations.

I haven't read it all ether. Just had it sent to me by a friend recently. From what you just posted, it doesn't exclude Perth which is a Qantas base. I've never been though so for all I know that could be the Regina of Australia.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#68 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:45 pm

skybaron wrote:Though very true, it's the "go overseas and double your money" marketing scheme that helps attract people to work for lower WAWCON. Direct Entry Embraer jobs at Sky were filled quite nicely with people that bought the idea. Who can blame them? But, that was then, and this is now. The growing shortage is global, and there should be zero need to suffer shitty conditions at cancer ULCC's just provide yourselves with a lifestyle that you've earned and is long overdue. If you want to scratch an itch and work in another continent, so be it - but, you shouldn't have to.
To my friends at WJ - One pilot group to fly ALL machines in the Holdings company's fleet. By this time, we've all seen how fair and well B or C scale salaries and conditions work. Encore is in your mirror.
Yes, we shouldn't have to suffer shitty conditions at any cancer ULCC, but look at the salaries Jazz, Encore and Porter offer you to fly the Dash 8 and the Q (as an F/O)... It's not like you're leaving a Q400 job an Encore, making 80K a year as F/O to go fly a 737NG for 40K...
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#69 Post by Maritimer » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:34 am

WJ management can target Encore pilots to fill the seats up front at Swoop all they want but they may be shocked at how little interest they get when they find out that if you leave WJ or Encore for Swoop and then try to come back you'll be at the bottom of the WJ list and starting all over again.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#70 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:14 am

Isn't 65% of WJ pay even less than Encore pay? Somebody with recent numbers will have to verify.

If true, good luck getting Encore pilots to take a pay cut to fly a pink plane.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#71 Post by mantogasrsrwy » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:28 am

I have to laugh at the speculators talking out of their rear and trying to pass it off as fact. 65% of WJ pay? BOTL for Swoop? There has been no agreement reached between ALPA and WJ so at this point that's all BS. Of course Saretsky is going to throw out a low ball number at this point. Perhaps it's going to be 65% and BOTL but I doubt it. Regardless, don't get all worked up, wait till an agreement is reached, after all, now the WJ pilots have ALPA it's supposed to be all sunshine and rainbow farts right?
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#72 Post by altiplano » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm

What did the scope say from the pre-ALPA agreement? Either way I don't think they can just farm off your exact job to a wholly owned subsidiary.

The flying is yours.

I think the pilots have the leverage here. Swoop is already announced to start flying in 9 months without a deal in place. It will have to happen and the government isn't going to intervene and force you to accept anything.

Swoop will take from current Westjet flying.
Make no mistake. Canada is a SMALL market and there are only a handful of viable secondary airports/routes... we will see Swoop across your domestic network, US, Caribean, maybe even on the Atlantic... I have no doubt.

Don't forget the flying is yours, pilots have the leverage here, don't B-scale your job, your upgrade, your future colleagues...

2-tiers will result in a situation where they can whipsaw you against each other to everyone's loss...

Just look at AC/ACPA - mainline vs. rouge conditions, DB vs. DC/TBP pensions... Forced on us in 2012 and now we're trying to close the gap and paying big big big to do it, grossly overpaying in fact, giving up 75 years of negotiated gains and protections, on a period of record profits and company successes to the detriment of us all...

Good luck.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#73 Post by Oscar » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:54 pm

Personally, in 5 years I see Woops becoming the next Rouge. Slowly absorbing aircraft, and taking over leisure routes from mainline WJ.

- Encore & Jazz serving the regional market with regional aircraft. (Q400, CRJ etc)
- Woops and Rouge serving the leisure travel market with narrow bodies. (737 / 319, etc)
- Westjet and Air Canada mainly focussing on the international wide body market, with a few narrow bodies for the business routes. (Max, 767, 787, etc)
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#74 Post by TheStig » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:07 pm

I'm looking forward to seeing what new ideas WJ will come up with. How they will code share between passengers connecting from WJ to Swoop, how their points system will be used, what markets will they target? ULCC's don't typically use rewards systems. In Canada carriers are required to include AIF, customs fees, security charges and taxes into their marketed prices, what additional ancillary revenues do they plan on adding a-la-carte?

I don't think we should confuse the leisure market with the ultra low cost market. Leisure passengers are those travelling for pleasure who are traveling for pleasure and are price sensitive. Ultra low cost passengers are those who might not even travel if it weren't for rock bottom prices.

I believe its safe to say this flying belongs to the ALPA represented WJ pilot group, seems like a pretty easy case to make in front of even the most right-leaning arbitrator. However, it is in the pilot groups best interest that this venture succeed. I can see this flying don't near the current rates while WJ pilots see raises closer to industry standards.
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Re: Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

#75 Post by skybaron » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:29 pm

altiplano wrote: Swoop will take from current Westjet flying.
Make no mistake. Canada is a SMALL market and there are only a handful of viable secondary airports/routes... we will see Swoop across your domestic network, US, Caribean, maybe even on the Atlantic... I have no doubt.

Don't forget the flying is yours, pilots have the leverage here, don't B-scale your job, your upgrade, your future colleagues...

2-tiers will result in a situation where they can whipsaw you against each other to everyone's loss...

Just look at AC/ACPA - mainline vs. rouge conditions, DB vs. DC/TBP pensions... Forced on us in 2012 and now we're trying to close the gap and paying big big big to do it, grossly overpaying in fact, giving up 75 years of negotiated gains and protections, on a period of record profits and company successes to the detriment of us all...

Good luck.
Well said.
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