WestJet introduces WestJet Link

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#51 Post by atphat » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:07 am

swimming wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:23 am
atphat wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:30 am
The few WJ pilots I know well enough to get an honest answer don’t seem to be concerned at all. Quite interesting.
Exactly. This is a way to feed from smaller markets into the WJ system through a capacity purchase agreement. With the expansion into Wide bodies and the new opportunities with the Max this is a way to put butts in those seats. The markets being proposed for Wj Link can't support Jet or Q service. Now someone who may have had to drive to YYC or may have booked AC in the past because of connectivity with a tier 3 like Georgian now has the option to connect into the the WJ network with Pasco. For example YXS-YYC was tried with Encore but was not feasible with a Q400. Now that service is available with a Saab 340. 20 people on a Q=not good. 20 People on a 340=good. Pasco is a great airline and this partnership will be beneficial for all. Having more guests flying out of YYC will also help maintain that base size for WJ which I'm sure many WJ pilots will appreciate.
You're not understanding what is at stake. Scope is everything. For a pilot group nothing should be placed as a higher value than scope. Ask Quantas, AC, Lufthansa pilots what scope means. And what happens when you don't protect it. I'm not saying the 37 should be flying into YXS. That's not really the point. WJ management has shown they will act unilaterally, as they should, in the absence of a scope agreement. Someone mentioned when is Pasco putting in an order for Q400's. In time that is a very valid question. Better yet, when is Swoop getting Dreamliners.....or Encore for that matter.
---------- ADS -----------
  

plhought
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:02 am
Location: Calgary

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#52 Post by plhought » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:21 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-398259/

Protect your scope - or nothing prevents WJA from doing something like Swiss did when the eventual 87's arrive.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
infiniteregulus
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:46 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#53 Post by infiniteregulus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:57 am

Agreed. It's very naive to allow separate growth without protection of your own operation. It's well documented in history.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Go Guns
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 955
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:22 pm
Location: on my way

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#54 Post by Go Guns » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:10 pm

Pasco pilots are paid par or better than Encore aren't they? I'm not sure where the advantage would for WJ to have Pasco fly Q's
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2837
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#55 Post by altiplano » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:58 pm

Go Guns wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:10 pm
Pasco pilots are paid par or better than Encore aren't they? I'm not sure where the advantage would for WJ to have Pasco fly Q's
Control and division.
---------- ADS -----------
  

PositiveRate27
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:27 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#56 Post by PositiveRate27 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Go Guns wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:10 pm
Pasco pilots are paid par or better than Encore aren't they? I'm not sure where the advantage would for WJ to have Pasco fly Q's
When Pasco asks for a raise to wages and working conditions, Saretsky will say Encore is doing it for the same price. Then he’ll say the same about Pasco to Encore when they ask for a raise.

Ask the 1000+ pilots on Jazz’s B scale how the AC express diversification is working out for them.

Scope is everything in this game. I’m sure if AC management had it their way all narrowbody flying would be at Jazz/Sky/GGN and mainline would be only wide Body. The advantage WS management has for the time being is that there is absolutely nothing protecting scope. Swoop could very well be the airline the 787’s go to.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1784
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#57 Post by mbav8r » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:44 pm

I don’t want this to sound like I’m endorsing this new development or in case Saretsky reads this forum, endorsing him, this was a brilliant move even though he didn’t come up with it himself, history being what it is.
If scope wasn’t on WJ ALPAs radar before, it is now and that is going to cost them! The old WJ culture is long gone now, replaced with or soon will be replaced with a mutual disdain, to be honest I’m sure Saretsky already held that for pilots in general before he even came to WJ. This is going to get bitter and it appears WJ holds some very good cards at this point, the pilots may need to bluff(strike action) to win this hand.
I don’t believe there was anything drafted up to even restrict Encore from getting anything other than Q, from memory I believe it was just the pilots ok to start a separate company with trust they wouldn’t get screwed by the company, I would think that trust is mostly gone. Even if there was an agreement regarding Encore, it appears nothing preventing new entities or partners from anything he can think up, including widebodies to swoop, what will WJ pilots do now to prevent that.
To the pilots who apparently believe in unicorns, it starts with markets that can’t be served by bigger now and expands to other markets that can’t support frequencies of bigger, its very naive to think this is not a threat, it’s just the beginning.
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#58 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:10 pm

To those who think this will expand WJ/WJE flying, ask yourself this. Why isn't Encore flying the Saabs (or a smaller Dash)? CommutAir is retiring their Q200s, so they wouldn't even have to buy from Chorus.

The pilot work force is in the process of re-organising. Management is clearly taking advantage of this.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Captain X
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:47 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#59 Post by Captain X » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:26 pm

Besides the tip toeing around the union...Could it also be just a case of Westjet not having to spend capital on smaller dash's, just stoke a cheque each month to pasco. If it ends up being successful, westjet encore then decides to purchase smaller a/c to fly into these smaller markets? Pasco's curent saab capt pay was 66-105k. Will be interesting to see if the "Link flying" will be paid the same.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Squid
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#60 Post by Squid » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:19 pm

Going nowhere, pls remind me why Jazz doesn’t fly Georgians b1900? Lol
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
NewCommercialPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:22 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#61 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:08 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:10 pm
The pilot work force is in the process of re-organising. Management is clearly taking advantage of this.
So your analysis of the business case for WJ Link is that the management team was waiting for WJ pilots to certify before pulling the trigger on the project? Or do you think that they started thinking of the possibilities only since the mainline pilots certified in May?

I do think you are in the right arena with your thinking. Since the pilots decided they did not want a collaborative approach to employee/management relations (WJPA) and instead wanted a formalized relationship (ALPA), they (pilots) will reap what they have sown. Good luck with that.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#62 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:22 am

WJ pilots don't have an ALPA contract yet. It would dictate things like scope. With WJPA, they discussed the Encore expansion before proceeding. Currently the pilot group is in limbo. Management is doing whatever they want because they currently can, they clearly have very little regard for their pilots.

What I don't get is why WJ management doesn't want to collaborate with ALPA, it doesn't have to be a hostile relationship. Yet that's exactly the direction management is going.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2837
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#63 Post by altiplano » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:31 am

My understanding was that management at Westjet had been operating under the expectation that Pilots would unionize for some time.

Further, look at the model. One of the most successful, profitable airlines ever... The airline Westjet fashioned itself after at inception - Southwest.

Unionised Pilots and a history of an extremely collaborative, successful relationship.

SWAPA is in its 39th year of service to the Pilots of Southwest Airlines. Prior to the Union's beginnings in 1978, Pilots worked with the Company to compile work rules for safe, efficient operations. Since that time, SWAPA has successfully negotiated nine labor contracts.

You can't point only to the Pilots and say "reap what you sow", this is up to both parties to move forward on the right foot.

If the corporation keeps throwing beanballs, eventually you have to charge the mound.
---------- ADS -----------
  

avpride
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#64 Post by avpride » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:44 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:22 am
WJ pilots don't have an ALPA contract yet. It would dictate things like scope. With WJPA, they discussed the Encore expansion before proceeding. Currently the pilot group is in limbo. Management is doing whatever they want because they currently can, they clearly have very little regard for their pilots.

What I don't get is why WJ management doesn't want to collaborate with ALPA, it doesn't have to be a hostile relationship. Yet that's exactly the direction management is going.

Easy - establish who is in the driver seat out of the gate. From an industry perspective, WJ is in an ideal position, one that AC could only hope for. Divide up your network to limit risks, maximize seats, control costs and diversify operations. Being able to divide the flying between groups is really attractive in any book. Give the flying to the most competitive group. I can assure you when there is new Q400 work WJ will play Link against Encore to get the best deal they can. Same with swoop and mainline.

This is a mic drop by WJ - Well played indeed
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mach1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#65 Post by Mach1 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:55 am

NewCommercialPilot wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:08 am
I do think you are in the right arena with your thinking. Since the executive decided they did not want a collaborative approach to employee/management relations (WJPA) and instead wanted a formalized relationship (ALPA), they (executive) will reap what they have sown. Good luck with that.
I fixed that for you. Because; had the executive continued to communicate honestly and openly with the pilot group; had the executive continued to operate under the concept that every labour group (including the executive) shared in the good times and the bad; had the executive kept the philosophy of treat the employee well, the employee will treat the customer well and the customer will treat the stock price well.. WJ would not be unionised right now. So, to say the pilot group started this is either wilful blindness or an outright lie. Clive himself has said that a company gets the union it deserves.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

avpride
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#66 Post by avpride » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:02 am

Squid wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:19 pm
Going nowhere, pls remind me why Jazz doesn’t fly Georgians b1900? Lol
Cost - fullstop
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#67 Post by fish4life » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:18 am

What doesn’t make sense to me is AC tried to hostile relationship and it hurt the company, they looked at WJ and seem to be greatly improving the employee relationship with success so why WJ seems stubborn to go against that model is baffling.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Air.Field
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#68 Post by Air.Field » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:40 pm

PositiveRate27 wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:11 pm
I’m sure if AC management had it their way all narrowbody flying would be at Jazz/Sky/GGN and mainline would be only wide Body. The advantage WS management has for the time being is that there is absolutely nothing protecting scope. Swoop could very well be the airline the 787’s go to.
I'd go as far as saying even the widebody would be at ggn and sr. However that's not going to happen, nor is 87 to swoop.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#69 Post by DropTanks » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:26 pm

Hey I got a question...

What gives you people the impression the WJ management HAS to ask "pretty please" to the pilot group for any of these corporate decisions? Hmmm? They don't. Plain and simple. You might be used to some kind of iron clad scope in the AC world but that just isn't in place (yet) at WJ. What we do have is very limited language around Widebodies going to WJ mainline only. Nothing about CPA's. There's a lot of work to be done between ALPA and Management regarding the contract and Swoop that wants to start up by next summer. Very murky waters right now. The Swoop flying IS WestJet pilots flying and the real focus..the Saab340 stuff is not.

I've yet to meet a WJ pilot that is losing his mind over the Pasco thing like you guys are. It's just not the reality. Truth is it's a smart corporate move to grow the network and fill more seats. And as a long term WJ pilot I'm very pleased to see they're taking steps to solidify our company's future growth.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Mr. North
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#70 Post by Mr. North » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:59 pm

Perhaps you should ask an Encore pilot what they think? I can assure you it's not something they're happy about. Management has always promised that they aim to have 100% flow to mainline. Obviously that has yet to be achieved with our aggressive growth but as things start to settle down here, especially with the hiring delay, many of us were expecting that 100% to become a reality. However by enticing Pasco pilots with preferential interviews (redacted for the time being), the idea of 100% flow has been proven to be a lie. Many of us left good paying jobs because we were told the door was closing to mainline and the only way in would be through Encore. Clearly we've been had.

But yes it's all good news for '37 crews. Don't worry about the Encore folks, slaving away 19 days a month. Meanwhile Pasco pilots (who are better compensated) stand to land that jet job before many of us.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#71 Post by DropTanks » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:17 pm

I'm sorry you feel so hard done by. God knows all we talk about on the flight deck is how we can screw over the Encore pilots. Oh wait that's not true at all. In fact quite the opposite is true but if you don't believe that then I can't help you. We don't have any say over how many Encore flow over or when the 100% flow will be established permanently but I'm convinced its right around the corner and look forward to that day. The Encore fleet is nearing full delivery and I would think that would help 100% flow sooner rather than later. As far as the Pasco thing regarding hiring or an interview or whatever, I don't know what to tell you. The company has stated that no such agreement for special hiring to mainline exists. If you choose not to believe them then once again I can't help you. There's one very important thing the Pasco guys won't have that you do...and it rhymes with: reserved seniority spot on the one list with 737, Q400, 767 and soon 787 pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 556
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#72 Post by sstaurus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:56 am

I think any anger over pasco is just a symptom of the general morale drop at encore due to 0 flow for months or even in sight, and the prospect of being there for years longer than anticipated... Management is out cutting deals without reminding the pilots that they havent been forgotten... And yes, I know management doesnt have to do squat but it still feels like a raw deal.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Noo
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:41 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#73 Post by Noo » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:32 am

Management knows their business model won't work with unionized pilot groups. The future of the company is at stake. So they've started new airlines without pilot unions (Swoop and Link). They got it done just under the wire before it would have been impossible due to scope clauses demanded in the first union contracts.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Mr. North
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 am

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#74 Post by Mr. North » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:41 am

DropTanks wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:17 pm
I'm sorry you feel so hard done by. God knows all we talk about on the flight deck is how we can screw over the Encore pilots. Oh wait that's not true at all. In fact quite the opposite is true but if you don't believe that then I can't help you. We don't have any say over how many Encore flow over or when the 100% flow will be established permanently but I'm convinced its right around the corner and look forward to that day. The Encore fleet is nearing full delivery and I would think that would help 100% flow sooner rather than later. As far as the Pasco thing regarding hiring or an interview or whatever, I don't know what to tell you. The company has stated that no such agreement for special hiring to mainline exists. If you choose not to believe them then once again I can't help you. There's one very important thing the Pasco guys won't have that you do...and it rhymes with: reserved seniority spot on the one list with 737, Q400, 767 and soon 787 pilots.
I never accused you or any '37 pilot of colluding with management so cool your jets. But you did say that you've yet to meet a WJ pilot "losing their mind over the Pasco thing". Well I'm here to tell you that Encore pilots are far from happy about it. Everyone has been "convinced" that 100% flow is around the corner yet this whole CPA fiasco has proven that to be otherwise. The preferential interviews to mainline were redacted after an uproar from Encore pilots once we caught wind of it. Would that have been the case had we missed it? These sorts of "mistakes" don't just happen, this was deliberate and will most likely be revisited once things blow over.

Reserved Seniority, which up until yesterday was in jeopardy, doesn't account for the fact that new hires at mainline make more than any Encore pilot within 2-3 years. Yet Encore pilots start at the bottom of the pay scale again once they flow over regardless of their YOS. So sure we will see the left seat before new hires at mainline but that's cold comfort when they enjoy YEARS of better pay, schedule, esp, and benefits. Thankfully ALPA is now onboard, allowing us to work together with our brothers and sisters at WJ to streamline this whole affair. In the mean time we can expect another CPA to be announced out East.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ant_321
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link

#75 Post by ant_321 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:43 am

Mr. North wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:41 am
DropTanks wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:17 pm
I'm sorry you feel so hard done by. God knows all we talk about on the flight deck is how we can screw over the Encore pilots. Oh wait that's not true at all. In fact quite the opposite is true but if you don't believe that then I can't help you. We don't have any say over how many Encore flow over or when the 100% flow will be established permanently but I'm convinced its right around the corner and look forward to that day. The Encore fleet is nearing full delivery and I would think that would help 100% flow sooner rather than later. As far as the Pasco thing regarding hiring or an interview or whatever, I don't know what to tell you. The company has stated that no such agreement for special hiring to mainline exists. If you choose not to believe them then once again I can't help you. There's one very important thing the Pasco guys won't have that you do...and it rhymes with: reserved seniority spot on the one list with 737, Q400, 767 and soon 787 pilots.
I never accused you or any '37 pilot of colluding with management so cool your jets. But you did say that you've yet to meet a WJ pilot "losing their mind over the Pasco thing". Well I'm here to tell you that Encore pilots are far from happy about it. Everyone has been "convinced" that 100% flow is around the corner yet this whole CPA fiasco has proven that to be otherwise. The preferential interviews to mainline were redacted after an uproar from Encore pilots once we caught wind of it. Would that have been the case had we missed it? These sorts of "mistakes" don't just happen, this was deliberate and will most likely be revisited once things blow over.

Reserved Seniority, which up until yesterday was in jeopardy, doesn't account for the fact that new hires at mainline make more than any Encore pilot within 2-3 years. Yet Encore pilots start at the bottom of the pay scale again once they flow over regardless of their YOS. So sure we will see the left seat before new hires at mainline but that's cold comfort when they enjoy YEARS of better pay, schedule, esp, and benefits. Thankfully ALPA is now onboard, allowing us to work together with our brothers and sisters at WJ to streamline this whole affair. In the mean time we can expect another CPA to be announced out East.
I was thinking the same thing about another CPA out east. I'll predict PAL. They already have bases in YUL, YHZ and YYT and before encore happened it was floating around the rumor mill that there was an agreement in the works between them and WestJet. Obviously this is pure speculation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”