Swoop Blacklist

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altiplano
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Swoop Blacklist

Post by altiplano »

Word is that the WS ALPA MEC is calling for support of a total recruitment ban on any Swoop Pilots by other airlines. A Blacklist.

Sounds like they are getting some support and traction.
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Jimmy2
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Jimmy2 »

Why would they blacklist themselves?
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by altiplano »

I'm guessing that talks about who will do the flying aren't going so well.
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JBI
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by JBI »

In one of his speeches this year, (I can’t recall if it was an earnings call, the board of trade talk or some other public appearance, but I do believe it was before either of the pilot groups had unionized) WestJet’s CEO was asked if the ULCC had to use WestJet pilots. His answer at the time was “yes and no”. His interpretation of the pilot contract was that WestJet pilots had to have the opportunity to bid on the ULCC positions first and then if all the positions were not filled, the company could look for outside pilots.

While, regretfully, I think this discussion will devolve into repeated chants of “race to the bottom”, I do honestly wonder where Swoop would be able to find enough outside pilots to crew up to 10 737s. While there are likely enough qualified pilots in Canada to be 737 FOs, I am honestly curious if there are enough 737 Captain qualified pilots in Canada who would leave their current positions to fly for Swoop.

If Swoop pilots are not on the WestJet Pilot seniority list, get lower pay than WestJet pilots to fly the same type, potentially get blacklisted from AC etc., would there really be any 737 or comparable jet Captains that would be willing to leave their current employment to go fly a 737?

In these discussions, I try not to judge a pilot for taking a particular job as each of us have our own personal situations where one job would make more sense for one person or another. But objectively, I find it difficult to actually see which pilots such a job would make sense for. I don’t think Sunwing Capts or senior FOs would go. Perhaps some junior Flair Capts could go depending on where they live (but admittedly I don't know much about Flair's schedule and working conditions). I don’t think you’ll get too many AC express E170 or RJ Captains making the jump except perhaps some who are commuting from the West. Maybe you’ll get a few who want a 737 Type rating to then try and get a job overseas. But overall, there aren’t hundreds, or even dozens pilots qualified to Captain a 737 sitting around Canada waiting to go fly for a ULCC. And that’s not even for Swoop, Jetlines and the other proposed ULCCs are going to run in to the same problem.
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NewCommercialPilot
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

In line with what altiplano posted, I am hearing that WJ management is refusing to agree to the ban.
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DropTanks
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by DropTanks »

Wow that's some interesting information there considering the discussions between ALPA and company regarding Swoop have literally just started. As in this week just started. There is no information beyond that out there. I'm also supremely confident that the MEC and negots committee are good enough that they don't walk out of the room and start texting their friends at other airlines about the particulars of the discussion. So on that point I'm going to call BS on absolutely anything that starts with "I hear that..."

Furthermore I'm also confident that ALPA and WJ will be able to find terms on this. Both sides want the same thing in that the flying be done by WJ pilots. The alternative would be so messy and I don't think either side wants to see that happen. They'll make a deal. What it looks like remains to be seen.
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Jimmy2
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Jimmy2 »

No no no, the Swoop flying will be done by WS pilots. They were adamant about this in the Swoop thread.

What's a blacklist going to do anyway? Air Canada isn't ALPA so they won't care. China isn't ALPA.
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lostaviator
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by lostaviator »

While I like the idea.....

1) How would this stand up at the court level?
2) Trade unions don't/can't really control who a company decides to hire. (usually).
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digits_
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by digits_ »

lostaviator wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:04 am While I like the idea.....

1) How would this stand up at the court level?
2) Trade unions don't/can't really control who a company decides to hire. (usually).
Makes me wonder wat would happen in a place where alpa membership is mandatory and alpa refuses your membership after hiring?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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NewCommercialPilot
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

DropTanks, I agree with a lot of you what you wrote, however, this statement seems presumptious:
Both sides want the same thing in that the flying be done by WJ pilots.
My perspective would be that

a) ALPA wants the flying done by WJ pilots at WJ pilot rates, and
b) the company wants the flying done by pilots at the offered pay and work terms.

I'm not sure there is much middle ground.
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Last edited by NewCommercialPilot on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by altiplano »

"In line with what altiplano posted, I am hearing that WJ management is refusing to agree to the ban."

No, NCP that doesn't make sense, does it. They need the carrot.

It would be a tough group to join if you just undermined it and drove your future down though.

ACPA backing WS pilots' struggle further complicates it if you're considering swoop...

Not welcome where you can go and not able to go to the other...

I hope the WJ pilots can secure the flying under their terms. They already work CARs limits, lack synthetic pay credits, socialised bid, what more can be taken? A few bucks an hour? No per diem? No stock match? C'mon... it's pennies in the scope of running an airplane.
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Last edited by altiplano on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by altiplano »

DropTanks wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:57 am So on that point I'm going to call BS on absolutely anything that starts with "I hear that..."
I didn't just hear it in the Tim Hortons line up.
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Last edited by altiplano on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by HansDietrich »

First of all, I am NOT a supporter of ULCCs. I never flew them, will never fly them and will never fly for them. I do have a number of question to ask:

How many pilots here work for 40K or less a year here? Do we have a right to piss on those that may fly for Swoop? What moral ground do we have? What have we done to help those guys out? I don't see BIG RED or BIG TEAL hiring "everyone".
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Jimmy2
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Jimmy2 »

Imagine working at Air Canada and not being "allowed" to join the ACPA. That would really be the dream.
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NewCommercialPilot
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

altiplano wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:13 am...what more can be taken?
I don't know, however, three nights ago I was in the elevator at our LAS layover hotel with some of my crew and two Spitit FA's who remarked on our FA's luggage and asked if the company made them pay for it. Apparently, from these two FA's words, Spirit FA's must pay for their crew luggage.

So, to answer your question, I would say "much". I would disagree that wages don't matter in the cost per seat mile equation. That's just cockpit expert syndrome (CES) at work.
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digits_
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by digits_ »

Jimmy2 wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:32 am Imagine working at Air Canada and not being "allowed" to join the ACPA. That would really be the dream.

Really curious what would happen in that case.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
altiplano
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by altiplano »

NCP - Of course wages are pennies, and pennies make dollars, but again, in the overall amount of running an airline a few dollar cut in a pilots wage barely registers.
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Stan Darsh
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Stan Darsh »

JBI wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:31 am In one of his speeches this year, (I can’t recall if it was an earnings call, the board of trade talk or some other public appearance, but I do believe it was before either of the pilot groups had unionized) WestJet’s CEO was asked if the ULCC had to use WestJet pilots. His answer at the time was “yes and no”. His interpretation of the pilot contract was that WestJet pilots had to have the opportunity to bid on the ULCC positions first and then if all the positions were not filled, the company could look for outside pilots.

While, regretfully, I think this discussion will devolve into repeated chants of “race to the bottom”, I do honestly wonder where Swoop would be able to find enough outside pilots to crew up to 10 737s. While there are likely enough qualified pilots in Canada to be 737 FOs, I am honestly curious if there are enough 737 Captain qualified pilots in Canada who would leave their current positions to fly for Swoop.

If Swoop pilots are not on the WestJet Pilot seniority list, get lower pay than WestJet pilots to fly the same type, potentially get blacklisted from AC etc., would there really be any 737 or comparable jet Captains that would be willing to leave their current employment to go fly a 737?

In these discussions, I try not to judge a pilot for taking a particular job as each of us have our own personal situations where one job would make more sense for one person or another. But objectively, I find it difficult to actually see which pilots such a job would make sense for. I don’t think Sunwing Capts or senior FOs would go. Perhaps some junior Flair Capts could go depending on where they live (but admittedly I don't know much about Flair's schedule and working conditions). I don’t think you’ll get too many AC express E170 or RJ Captains making the jump except perhaps some who are commuting from the West. Maybe you’ll get a few who want a 737 Type rating to then try and get a job overseas. But overall, there aren’t hundreds, or even dozens pilots qualified to Captain a 737 sitting around Canada waiting to go fly for a ULCC. And that’s not even for Swoop, Jetlines and the other proposed ULCCs are going to run in to the same problem.
If this is the case then I certainly applaud the WS MEC for standing up. Exercise the leverage you do have.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

Altiplano, I believe that chiseling pennies off of every single item, line by line, will be bred into the DNA of every manager/leadership person at SWOOP. The message will be clear from the top on down. They will be ruthless in keeping costs as low as possible, and I see no reason why employee wages are any different. For instance, I suspect that if you want water during your flight, as pilots, you will likely have to bring your own, or be offered a glass at a time from the cabin crew.

That would be my mentality as a penny pincher: examine every single sacred cow.

Cheers
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by JBI »

Stan Darsh wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:57 am
JBI wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:31 am ... While there are likely enough qualified pilots in Canada to be 737 FOs, I am honestly curious if there are enough 737 Captain qualified pilots in Canada who would leave their current positions to fly for Swoop.
...
If this is the case then I certainly applaud the WS MEC for standing up. Exercise the leverage you do have.
That's the thing - this is only my (relatively well informed) opinion. I'm curious what it would take for the pilots on this board who have transport jet command time (or significant FO time) that would be eligible to upgrade for them to take a job at Swoop (or other new ULCCs). I could definitely be wrong, but it's not like 2008 where there are a bunch of 737 rated Captains under-employed. I would think that most of the pilots in Canada who, in theory, would be eligible for a Swoop Captain's position are already employed at relatively stable positions and going to Swoop at rates and working conditions lower than WJ 737 pilots are already paid wouldn't really entice all that many folks. Anyone care to comment?
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