Swoop Blacklist

[AvifiskAlly]

Duplicate

[GRK2]

You also said earlier that there were a lot of other professions where the liability undertaken is high... Please name one where a single mistake made in a split second can lead to the loss of 400 people and the write off of 250 million in equipment.

Well a large cruise ship comes to mind, they carry thousands of people.

I am late to the party here, so if you are a pilot, then it is sad to see how you view your profession. If you are a manager or some other entity sitting on the sideline, then go crawl back under your rock until you have some idea of what you are talking about.

Actually I am a pilot and worked in the industry for over fifty years and yes I was in management for years.

And I also owned several of my own companies both fixed wing and rotary wing.

And I worked in government in a regulatory position.

You should work on your social interaction skills because I have as much right as you do to express my opinion without being told to crawl under a rock.

It is attitudes like yours that lead me to believe that being a pilot does not automatically mean you are something special.

I am finished with this now.

Hahahahaha...schooled by a Master!download/file.php?mode=view&id=13838

[truedude]

Hahahahaha...schooled by a Master!download/file.php?mode=view&id=13838

Not sure how you would consider that being school. His example was not a precise parallel. Even though bad decisions can result in the loss of life and damage to expensive equipment, 400 people don't tend to die in an instant. And even if you consider it to be a parallel, ship captains are well compensated.

As for his resume, he should know better to suggest the pilots are payed based on the revenue the airplane they fly generates. That is just insanity on the face of it. He says he worked in the government in a regulatory position, which I assume to mean Transport Canada. If so, then I have even less respect for him. For decades we saw operators continuously break the law, pressure pilots to fly overloaded or into unsavory flight conditions, while transport did NOTHING. Most of us who have been in the industry for the last two decades know of at least one person who lost their lives working for one of these companies over the years. We all knew it was going on, and Transport can't claim they didn't. It was just far too convenient to put it all on the shoulders of the PIC, while offering him no protection should he say no and be fired for it. Even today, we are one of the last nations in the western world to implement new duty regulations.

[altiplano]

CWE, you certainly have a right to an opinion, but what makes it qualified?

"worked in the industry for over 50 years"
"owned several of my own companies"
"worked in government in a regulatory position"

Perhaps your best before date is past?
Which airlines did you work for? Types flown?
Which companies did you own?
What was your position with the regulator? What did you accomplish?

Ships' Captains had to be the worst example to support your argument...

I have a friend who's a coastal pilot in Vancouver and makes more than a 777 Captain at any NA airline taking everything from cruise ships to freighters out of the coastal waterway. He pays taxes in Canada though, cruise/shipping line Captains won't pay tax.... You don't have to believe me though...

Cruise-line companies might be in dire financial straits but their captains are enjoying life on the ocean wave.

The average salary for a cruise-liner captain jumped 22.8 per cent last year to US$153,379, (Dh563,435) with wage rates for master mariners aboard less glamorous bulk carriers and container ships receiving a 16 per cent boost to $110,981.

Cruise-liner captains receive substantially more than the average airline pilot's annual salary in the UAE, which is currently $122,647.

Chief officers aboard cargo ships did even better than their captains in terms of pay rises, logging a 27.5 per cent increase to $82,737 a year.

"Even though the shipping industry is being buffeted by poor vessel earnings, rising costs and ever more stringent regulations, salaries continue to rise," said Mark Charman, the chief executive of the Faststream Recruitment Group, a specialist maritime recruiter based in the United Kingdom that provided the salary survey data.

"The sector suffers from a skill shortage and the pool of highly qualified people continues to shrink. This is both the legacy of a lack of training in the 1980s during the previous downturn and the often perceived low status of jobs in the shipping industry. Companies recognise that good people are not necessarily readily available and need to be retained and properly incentivised."

The survey, carried out last year, was based on the responses of 4,000 shipping professionals working in all the main shipping centres as well as seafaring officers worldwide. It showed the most pressing skills shortage was among second engineers with five years experience.

"It is those candidates in particular who are receiving the top salaries," the survey's authors said.

In other maritime sectors, the survey shows captains working in the offshore industry are also earning a healthy $128,247 on average, although their increase was a more modest 7 per cent last year.

Salaries for ocean-goers, however, do not compare to the specialist rates earned by some inshore marine pilots. On the Panama Canal, senior pilots can make up to $450,000 per year, including overtime, or working "voluntary shifts" above the normal schedule of five weeks on/three weeks off.

San Francisco Bay and the lower Mississippi River are other examples of heavily trafficked waterways where small pilot groups enjoy a statutory monopoly on all work. Last year, members of the San Francisco Bar Pilots reportedly received an average net income of $451,336.

https://www.thenational.ae/business/cru ... s-1.393000

Because maritime pilots have advanced to the top of the maritime profession and are responsible for the most dangerous part of a voyage, they are generally well compensated.[citation needed]

The Florida Alliance of Maritime Organizations reported that Florida pilots salaries range from US$100,000 to US$400,000 annually. This was similar to other US states with large ports.[11] Columbia River bar pilots earn about US$180,000 per year.[12] A 2008 review of pilot salary in the United States showed that pay ranged from about US$250,000 to over US$500,000 per year.[13]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot

If you don't know what a coastal pilot does:
https://youtu.be/9p_Ji4UHPtM

[C.W.E.]

I decided to answer this part as it was an interesting position I was paid for.

What was your position with the regulator?

I was hired as an adviser on new rules the Greek CAA were putting into place for training.

What did you accomplish?

They were delighted with my suggestions and treated me and paid me very well which was accomplishment enough for me.

Also I worked for some of the biggest organisations in the world and was paid very well by them....for instance I made as much in three weeks flying for Mirimax as some pilots make in a year.

Perhaps your best before date is past?

Interesting question.

So lets examine it closer.

I have managed to survive over fifty years in commercial aviation with an unblemished record and finally retired because I could afford to.

So now that my " best before date is past " should I just stop reading and commenting on aviation forums because aviation has evolved way past my ability to understand it now?

What have you accomplished that entitles you to question me?

[moe]

. E is back!!

[C.W.E.]

. E is back!!

Yeh it's me and I hope to hang around for a few more years.

I don't seem to be ageing at all and I am still as healthy as I was when I retired in 2005.

I really get a charge out of people who think old age is somehow a failure and we are somehow inferior to them.

How can anyone be that stupid?

[altiplano]

Oh, CWE / Cat Driver / . E...

Of course! Three handles now.

Did you forget your password?

[C.W.E.]

I may be past my best before date but at least I can read and understand what I am reading.

No, I have not forgot my password and I don't have three usernames I have two.

Cat Driver and my initials C.W.E. .

The poster who said . E. is back was making a comment.....but you obviously can not figure that out.

[altiplano]

I may be past my best before date but at least I can read and understand what I am reading.

No, I have not forgot my password and I don't have three usernames I have two.

Cat Driver and my initials C.W.E. .

The poster who said . E. is back was making a comment.....but you obviously can not figure that out.

I always thought this was you too.
Did I misunderstand that?
Maybe you can see why I thought it was you.
I mean it's your name, right?
I don't know how I could be so stupid.

username:
. .

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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.

[altiplano]

Anyway.

Maybe we for off on the wrong foot again.

I was really just pointing out that Ships' Captains get paid well to commensurate with their unique skillset, experience levels, and the high levels of liability they assume.

Best of luck to you

[Boney]

So, if pilot "A" heeds ALPA's request and not apply to Swoop, and pilot "B" applies and is hired, what will ALPA say to pilot A, a year or so when an agreement is put in place and all is forgiven, even accepting those that are already on Swoop's property?

There's the rub.

[altiplano]

Cat Driver? CWE? . .?

Are you there? Did you forget your username and password again?

[GAF]

Don't be such a dick. . has more experience in his baby toe than you could ever hope for. He helped me with some float stuff, way back in '93, when his nickname was capt p..... hell of a guy.

[altiplano]

No doubt he's a nice a guy and a fine pilot, but you don't know me and I don't know you. .... ...

I'm just ribbing him a bit. No different than he had done to me and I'm sure he can take it.

He has recently called me stupid and probably worse over the past 10+ years... And I don't give a shit... It's very chivalrous I suppose of you, but honestly with all due respect... .... ...

[WJ200]

So, if pilot "A" heeds ALPA's request and not apply to Swoop, and pilot "B" applies and is hired, what will ALPA say to pilot A, a year or so when an agreement is put in place and all is forgiven, even accepting those that are already on Swoop's property?

There's the rub.

No rub. The pilot would not be a member in good standing. Therefore they wouldn't be able to use the resources available as an alpa member. This is also the issue with Swoop certifying right away. No franchise union would accept them. All will not be forgiven therefore.

[tbaylx]

All is always forgiven eventually except for a few bitter souls that hang on.

It's a legitimate point. Eventually something will get settled with Westjet and ALPA on the swoop issue and any pilots on Swoop property at the time will be part of that solution.

[Boney]

There have been a lot of interest and applications at Swoop, even with ALPA's black list. Many think that since there is no contract, as yet, with WJA, Swoop will end up in contract talks, and ALPA in their desire to get a CBA, which ALPA needs badly, aka dues, they will lift this black list. Better to join now and get the left seat sooner rather than later.

Encore got their conditions improved after they started. The same will happen at Swoop when they prove themselves.

ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate. I know, I know, salaries are below the current pay scale for WJA NG. The target pilots would have been junior F/O's and Encore Capt's whose current pay is below the starting pay at Swoop. Now, with pilots off the street, our own F/O's and Encore capt's may have lost out on an upgrade, and not accruing Capt's YOS. If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.

Interesting times ahead.

[saltypilot]

There have been a lot of interest and applications at Swoop, even with ALPA's black list. Many think that since there is no contract, as yet, with WJA, Swoop will end up in contract talks, and ALPA in their desire to get a CBA, which ALPA needs badly, aka dues, they will lift this black list. Better to join now and get the left seat sooner rather than later.

Encore got their conditions improved after they started. The same will happen at Swoop when they prove themselves.

ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate. I know, I know, salaries are below the current pay scale for WJA NG. The target pilots would have been junior F/O's and Encore Capt's whose current pay is below the starting pay at Swoop. Now, with pilots off the street, our own F/O's and Encore capt's may have lost out on an upgrade, and not accruing Capt's YOS. If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.

Interesting times ahead.

Boney, what position do you hold with Swoop? Second, If you’re so flush with applications at Woops then why does your post smell of desperation? “We have lots of interest and applications at Swoop”??? Then you go on and lock down all those outstanding new Woopsters. I find your strategy of “get in before all the juniors take your rightful spots” to be ignorant and self serving. Everyone involved in this should be ashamed of themselves. But who cares right. You’re taken care of so what odds about the rest right.

[Transonic]

......ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate.

This is incorrect. You need to read ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP complaint.

WestJet twice approached ALPA regarding negotiations of Swoop. WestJet set one condition that ALPA must sign an agreement stating they forfeit all rights under Part 1 of the Canada Labour Code to begin negotiations. I.E., the right to submit a ULP complaint or common employee status request. With due reason, ALPA rejected this outlandish request. WestJet stayed firm and refused to negotiate Swoop with ALPA. The matter is now before the CIRB.

Please read WestJet's ULP, ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP, ALPA's ULP and ALPA's request for injunction before spouting this BS. This is all on the ALPA website. You're hurting your fellow pilots with your strong opinion based on a lack of factual knowledge.