Swoop Blacklist

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WJ200
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#176 Post by WJ200 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:14 am

Boney wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:04 pm
So, if pilot "A" heeds ALPA's request and not apply to Swoop, and pilot "B" applies and is hired, what will ALPA say to pilot A, a year or so when an agreement is put in place and all is forgiven, even accepting those that are already on Swoop's property?

There's the rub.
No rub. The pilot would not be a member in good standing. Therefore they wouldn't be able to use the resources available as an alpa member. This is also the issue with Swoop certifying right away. No franchise union would accept them. All will not be forgiven therefore.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#177 Post by tbaylx » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:33 am

All is always forgiven eventually except for a few bitter souls that hang on.

It's a legitimate point. Eventually something will get settled with Westjet and ALPA on the swoop issue and any pilots on Swoop property at the time will be part of that solution.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#178 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am

There have been a lot of interest and applications at Swoop, even with ALPA's black list. Many think that since there is no contract, as yet, with WJA, Swoop will end up in contract talks, and ALPA in their desire to get a CBA, which ALPA needs badly, aka dues, they will lift this black list. Better to join now and get the left seat sooner rather than later.

Encore got their conditions improved after they started. The same will happen at Swoop when they prove themselves.

ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate. I know, I know, salaries are below the current pay scale for WJA NG. The target pilots would have been junior F/O's and Encore Capt's whose current pay is below the starting pay at Swoop. Now, with pilots off the street, our own F/O's and Encore capt's may have lost out on an upgrade, and not accruing Capt's YOS. If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.

Interesting times ahead.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#179 Post by saltypilot » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:30 am

Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
There have been a lot of interest and applications at Swoop, even with ALPA's black list. Many think that since there is no contract, as yet, with WJA, Swoop will end up in contract talks, and ALPA in their desire to get a CBA, which ALPA needs badly, aka dues, they will lift this black list. Better to join now and get the left seat sooner rather than later.

Encore got their conditions improved after they started. The same will happen at Swoop when they prove themselves.

ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate. I know, I know, salaries are below the current pay scale for WJA NG. The target pilots would have been junior F/O's and Encore Capt's whose current pay is below the starting pay at Swoop. Now, with pilots off the street, our own F/O's and Encore capt's may have lost out on an upgrade, and not accruing Capt's YOS. If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.

Interesting times ahead.
Boney, what position do you hold with Swoop? Second, If you’re so flush with applications at Woops then why does your post smell of desperation? “We have lots of interest and applications at Swoop”??? Then you go on and lock down all those outstanding new Woopsters. I find your strategy of “get in before all the juniors take your rightful spots” to be ignorant and self serving. Everyone involved in this should be ashamed of themselves. But who cares right. You’re taken care of so what odds about the rest right.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#180 Post by Transonic » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
......ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate.
This is incorrect. You need to read ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP complaint.

WestJet twice approached ALPA regarding negotiations of Swoop. WestJet set one condition that ALPA must sign an agreement stating they forfeit all rights under Part 1 of the Canada Labour Code to begin negotiations. I.E., the right to submit a ULP complaint or common employee status request. With due reason, ALPA rejected this outlandish request. WestJet stayed firm and refused to negotiate Swoop with ALPA. The matter is now before the CIRB.

Please read WestJet's ULP, ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP, ALPA's ULP and ALPA's request for injunction before spouting this BS. This is all on the ALPA website. You're hurting your fellow pilots with your strong opinion based on a lack of factual knowledge.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#181 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:57 am

saltypilot wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:30 am
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
There have been a lot of interest and applications at Swoop, even with ALPA's black list. Many think that since there is no contract, as yet, with WJA, Swoop will end up in contract talks, and ALPA in their desire to get a CBA, which ALPA needs badly, aka dues, they will lift this black list. Better to join now and get the left seat sooner rather than later.

Encore got their conditions improved after they started. The same will happen at Swoop when they prove themselves.

ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate. I know, I know, salaries are below the current pay scale for WJA NG. The target pilots would have been junior F/O's and Encore Capt's whose current pay is below the starting pay at Swoop. Now, with pilots off the street, our own F/O's and Encore capt's may have lost out on an upgrade, and not accruing Capt's YOS. If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.

Interesting times ahead.
Boney, what position do you hold with Swoop? Second, If you’re so flush with applications at Woops then why does your post smell of desperation? “We have lots of interest and applications at Swoop”??? Then you go on and lock down all those outstanding new Woopsters. I find your strategy of “get in before all the juniors take your rightful spots” to be ignorant and self serving. Everyone involved in this should be ashamed of themselves. But who cares right. You’re taken care of so what odds about the rest right.
I'm not with Swoop but my interest is more as both a Westjetter and stockholder.

Strategy. Buy when bullets fly. The Black list will be part of the upcoming negotiation and will end up lifted. Better get a good seat before the music stops.

No matter how much one screams at the top of their voice against corporate greed, they will do what's in the best interest of the corporation. I would say its shameful that ALPA choose to fight. Maybe they could have made positive changes before Swoop was rolled out. The WJPA did with Encore and with the bases. It may not have been acceptable to you, but what did roll out as well as after they rolled out did in fact improve on what was initially proposed. ALPA should be ashamed with themselves for not being at the table.

Like I said, interesting times ahead.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#182 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:59 am

Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
......ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate.
This is incorrect. You need to read ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP complaint.

WestJet twice approached ALPA regarding negotiations of Swoop. WestJet set one condition that ALPA must sign an agreement stating they forfeit all rights under Part 1 of the Canada Labour Code to begin negotiations. I.E., the right to submit a ULP complaint or common employee status request. With due reason, ALPA rejected this outlandish request. WestJet stayed firm and refused to negotiate Swoop with ALPA. The matter is now before the CIRB.

Please read WestJet's ULP, ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP, ALPA's ULP and ALPA's request for injunction before spouting this BS. This is all on the ALPA website. You're hurting your fellow pilots with your strong opinion based on a lack of factual knowledge.
Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#183 Post by Transonic » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:59 am
Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
......ALPA could have been up front at the table, with our own pilots, but choose to fight vs collaborate.
This is incorrect. You need to read ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP complaint.

WestJet twice approached ALPA regarding negotiations of Swoop. WestJet set one condition that ALPA must sign an agreement stating they forfeit all rights under Part 1 of the Canada Labour Code to begin negotiations. I.E., the right to submit a ULP complaint or common employee status request. With due reason, ALPA rejected this outlandish request. WestJet stayed firm and refused to negotiate Swoop with ALPA. The matter is now before the CIRB.

Please read WestJet's ULP, ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP, ALPA's ULP and ALPA's request for injunction before spouting this BS. This is all on the ALPA website. You're hurting your fellow pilots with your strong opinion based on a lack of factual knowledge.
Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
That does not absolve you of your responsibility to produce an opinion based on fact. You can contact your manager for the above mentioned ULP complaints and Injunction requests. I suspect they will be less than thrilled to provide them though. There are 4 documents in total that provide the legal arguements on both sides.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#184 Post by Checklist » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:27 pm

[/quote]

Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
[/quote]

20 percent... that doesn’t sound like a made up number at all...
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#185 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:28 pm

Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:12 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:59 am
Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am


This is incorrect. You need to read ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP complaint.

WestJet twice approached ALPA regarding negotiations of Swoop. WestJet set one condition that ALPA must sign an agreement stating they forfeit all rights under Part 1 of the Canada Labour Code to begin negotiations. I.E., the right to submit a ULP complaint or common employee status request. With due reason, ALPA rejected this outlandish request. WestJet stayed firm and refused to negotiate Swoop with ALPA. The matter is now before the CIRB.

Please read WestJet's ULP, ALPA's response to WestJet's ULP, ALPA's ULP and ALPA's request for injunction before spouting this BS. This is all on the ALPA website. You're hurting your fellow pilots with your strong opinion based on a lack of factual knowledge.
Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
That does not absolve you of your responsibility to produce an opinion based on fact. You can contact your manager for the above mentioned ULP complaints and Injunction requests. I suspect they will be less than thrilled to provide them though. There are 4 documents in total that provide the legal arguements on both sides.
You are correct in that I'm making opinions on my own observations vs documents. Fact, Swoop have announced a new CEO, starting on Monday, and is still on schedule to start in June'18.

Cheers
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#186 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:30 pm

Checklist wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:27 pm
Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
[/quote]

20 percent... that doesn’t sound like a made up number at all...
[/quote]

Can ALPA then provide the number of WJA pilots that haven't signed up. Also, how many of their members have withdrawn their ALPA membership.

I don't trust the current ALPA officers. Period

ps. I believe that my voice in ALPA would be discounted. By not signing on, I'm sending a message to ALPA international that the current ALPA executives are ............
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#187 Post by RidersRule » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:42 pm

Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.
That's one massive assumption in the GS era.

This is all about low costs. We don't have a YOS at WestJet unless your Captain 37 going captain 67.

There is no YOS from Encore to WestJet.

The thought of YOS from Swoop to WestJet is laughable.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#188 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:58 pm

RidersRule wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:42 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.
That's one massive assumption in the GS era.

This is all about low costs. We don't have a YOS at WestJet unless your Captain 37 going captain 67.

There is no YOS from Encore to WestJet.

The thought of YOS from Swoop to WestJet is laughable.
I can see where YOS was an incorrect acronym. DOH would be a better as that is what an Encore pilot carry over when he/she moves over to WJA. It is my hope that this policy can also include Swoop by also having the one list include them. Dare to dream.

Thanks for pointing this out .

Cheers
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#189 Post by Transonic » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:48 pm

Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:28 pm
Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:12 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:59 am


Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
That does not absolve you of your responsibility to produce an opinion based on fact. You can contact your manager for the above mentioned ULP complaints and Injunction requests. I suspect they will be less than thrilled to provide them though. There are 4 documents in total that provide the legal arguements on both sides.
You are correct in that I'm making opinions on my own observations vs documents. Fact, Swoop have announced a new CEO, starting on Monday, and is still on schedule to start in June'18.

Cheers
Not a CEO, but an EVP and President of Swoop. What of Bob Cummings? He is now subordinate to his former role.

Solid legal documents from both sides is an excellent way to form the basis of an opinion. Anecdotal observations are less than desirable.

We've all have had our turning point.

Sincerely,
A proud westjetter.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#190 Post by Smitty » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:50 pm

RidersRule wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:42 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.
That's one massive assumption in the GS era.

This is all about low costs. We don't have a YOS at WestJet unless your Captain 37 going captain 67.

There is no YOS from Encore to WestJet.

The thought of YOS from Swoop to WestJet is laughable.

There are also YOS accumulated after 9.5 years up to step 4 on the captain scale and should a pilot move from WJ to encore, they will continue to accrue YOS at WJ (though nobody has done this yet).
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#191 Post by Boney » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:04 pm

Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:48 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:28 pm
Transonic wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:12 pm


That does not absolve you of your responsibility to produce an opinion based on fact. You can contact your manager for the above mentioned ULP complaints and Injunction requests. I suspect they will be less than thrilled to provide them though. There are 4 documents in total that provide the legal arguements on both sides.
You are correct in that I'm making opinions on my own observations vs documents. Fact, Swoop have announced a new CEO, starting on Monday, and is still on schedule to start in June'18.

Cheers
Not a CEO, but an EVP and President of Swoop. What of Bob Cummings? He is now subordinate to his former role.

Solid legal documents from both sides is an excellent way to form the basis of an opinion. Anecdotal observations are less than desirable.

We've all have had our turning point.

Sincerely,
A proud westjetter.
Thanks.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#192 Post by RidersRule » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:05 pm

Smitty wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:50 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:42 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.
That's one massive assumption in the GS era.

This is all about low costs. We don't have a YOS at WestJet unless your Captain 37 going captain 67.

There is no YOS from Encore to WestJet.

The thought of YOS from Swoop to WestJet is laughable.

There are also YOS accumulated after 9.5 years up to step 4 on the captain scale and should a pilot move from WJ to encore, they will continue to accrue YOS at WJ (though nobody has done this yet).

If it takes a decade to accumulate one year it's not worth mentioning.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#193 Post by George Taylor » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:21 pm

Hey Boney,
You sound a lot like NCP aka JS.
I get it, Swallow (the) Bone. It makes sense now.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#194 Post by FL410AV8R » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 pm

Smitty wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:50 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:42 pm
Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:01 am
If we could get a one list with Swoop, like Encore, that YOS will follow back to mainline. Those that took up the 2 year LOA have at least ensured that.
That's one massive assumption in the GS era.

This is all about low costs. We don't have a YOS at WestJet unless your Captain 37 going captain 67.

There is no YOS from Encore to WestJet.

The thought of YOS from Swoop to WestJet is laughable.

There are also YOS accumulated after 9.5 years up to step 4 on the captain scale and should a pilot move from WJ to encore, they will continue to accrue YOS at WJ (though nobody has done this yet).
Oh yea the famous DOS aka decades of service. The milestone that very few if any F/Os actually reach so it is more symbolic than real.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#195 Post by FL410AV8R » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:45 pm

Boney wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:30 pm
Checklist wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:27 pm
Not an ALPA member, like the ~20% of WJA pilots, therefore have no access to any information. Yes, I'm fully aware that I have no say, but that's my choice.

Cheers
20 percent... that doesn’t sound like a made up number at all...
[/quote]

Can ALPA then provide the number of WJA pilots that haven't signed up. Also, how many of their members have withdrawn their ALPA membership.

I don't trust the current ALPA officers. Period

ps. I believe that my voice in ALPA would be discounted. By not signing on, I'm sending a message to ALPA international that the current ALPA executives are ............
[/quote]

Making up numbers to bolster your anti-ALPA rant may be fun but not really very productive or helpful. Also choosing not to educate yourself using the information publicly available is being willfully ignorant and there really is no excuse for that.

I think you may be surprised by the ALPA membership numbers. My information is that it is in the very high ninety percent range in both YVR and YYZ and in the low nineties in YYC, overall it would be in the mid-nineties. That is a far cry from your incorrect 20% number.

As for those who have rescinded their membership, I would venture that the number is less than 5 individuals possibly even less than 2.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#196 Post by Victory » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:12 pm

FL410AV8R wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 pm
The milestone that very few if any F/Os actually reach so it is more symbolic than real.
Just wait.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#197 Post by Victory » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:08 pm

ALPA should blacklist Jazz for flying 757's for less. Oh wait.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#198 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:43 pm

That 757 thing really gets him going...
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#199 Post by Longtimer » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:03 pm

WestJet ordered to change hiring practices for new no-frills carrier
Air Line Pilots Association is negotiating first collective agreement with WestJet
Thomson ReutersPosted: Mar 06, 2018 6:03 PM ET Last Updated: Mar 06, 2018 6:14 PM ET

WestJet can no longer recruit its pilots through two-year leaves of absence to fly for its new ultra-low cost carrier Swoop and will have to rescind any existing offers, following a ruling by the Canada Industrial Relations Board.
WestJet can no longer recruit its pilots through two-year leaves of absence to fly for its new ultra-low cost carrier Swoop and will have to rescind any existing offers, following a ruling by the Canada Industrial Relations Board. (WestJet)


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WestJet Airlines must change its hiring strategy for the company's new bargain carrier, Swoop, an Air Line Pilots Association executive said on Tuesday, citing a recent Canadian labour board order.

The country's second-largest carrier can no longer recruit its pilots through two-year leaves of absence to fly for Swoop and will have to rescind any existing offers, Rob McFadyen, chairman of WestJet's ALPA master executive council, said in a telephone interview.

ALPA, which is negotiating its first contract with Calgary-based WestJet, said the carrier was trying to bypass the union by luring its own pilots to fly for Swoop under different working conditions. It was not immediately what conditions the pilots were being offered to fly for Swoop.

WestJet's profit drops as fuel costs soar
WestJet pilots' union files complaint over recruitment for new low-cost airline
ALPA had argued that pilots who work for the new no-frills carrier should have the same working conditions as those who fly WestJet planes, with the union arguing they should all have the same contract.

In its March 2 order, seen by Reuters, the Canada Industrial Relations Board, or CIRB, told WestJet to "rescind the offer of a two-year leave of absence policy ... in order to fly for Swoop."

The decision risks complicating expansion plans by Calgary-based WestJet, which is growing its international network while launching the no-frills carrier in June, raising analyst concerns.

WestJet's first-ever union talks hit turbulence
WestJet Encore pilots unionize and flight attendants could be next
WestJet spokeswoman Lauren Stewart said by email that Swoop's launch remained on track and that the carrier "remains committed to engaging in constructive dialogue with" the pilots' union.

AltaCorp analyst Chris Murray said by email that it was still too early to determine the "impact this could have on timing or costs, but certainly continues to add to the complexity."
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#200 Post by Duke15 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:41 pm

As an Encore pilot close to flow i will gladly stay at encore a little while longer to have this swoop nonsense figured out properly as opposed to not fighting for what we ALL deserve. Its a small price to pay to help everyone out in the end as opposed to just myself right now and most likely in the long run will benefit me as we will come out of this with a stronger contract (not agreement) than we had before. We werent looking for a fight but one was brought to us unfortunately, we had zero say from the beginning and thats how it was all planned, had management come to us to negotiate things prior to making all the decisions for Swoop all of this could have been avoided, but they did not. We either stand together or make selfish choices that will end up hurting us all in the end. Im not going to hold a grudge against any OTS hire as i dont know their situation, but WJ pilots leaving for swoop is a different matter, we all have decent jobs at the moment, and to keep it that way or make it better we need to be patient and work together. Just my 2cents
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