Swoop Blacklist

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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck »

I’m just glad that pilots like Weedpro haven’t signed a card and never will sign a card. I don’t want people like you having a voice in my future at WestJet.

The MEC has accountability and a recall, something the past WJPA didn’t have. So much has happened to enlighten our group as to where we stand in the pilot world. Pay, scheduling, benefits etc we are so far behind everyone else it’s embarrassing no thanks to the old representation.

Rumours are a fact of life at an airline, and pilots like Weedpro feed off of them to advance there agenda.

John, take the time to read the comparison document again which is fact. Maybe you’ll figure it out one day. Good luck buddy
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by WeedPro2000 »

I’m guessing by this short term position to train Swoop pilots that the operation is on schedule to start operations in June. FA positions have also been posted.

Other than showing that (at least) one of ALPA’s tools is ineffective (the blacklist), what has ALPA achieved with respect to Swoop? Oh yes, they have guaranteed that WJ pilots can’t fly those airplanes. Good show!

Unfortunately, some still cling to the belief that the Statutory Freeze offers some means to get WJ pilots into those seats, at full WJ pilot T’s & C’s. That seems unlikely at this point.

Even the most ardent ALPA Fanboy must be questioning the situation now. Perhaps the new line of luggage accessories will prove to be a hot seller.

85 days.
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Legacy
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Legacy »

Retire already. Please!
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Checklist
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Checklist »

What really blows me away JS, is your justification that pilots deserve to be treated in such a disrespectful way.

Why can’t the relationship be just as strong with ALPA as it was with the pa? Why wasn’t the pilot group given a proper opportunity to negotiate the WJDL flying swoop?

What management is doing is not okay. It’s a fine thank- you for our groups contribution to 51 consecutive profitable quarters.

At least I know ALPA is going to bat for me, regardless of the outcome.
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Go Guns
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Go Guns »

Why wasn’t the pilot group given a proper opportunity to negotiate WJDL flying swoop?
To be fair, they likely were given the option to negotiate, so long as it was lower pay, which the membership clearly has little appetite for.

As far as JS, his comment seems to assume this is all over and decided, which I highly doubt it is.
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Bede
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Bede »

Some people can't be reasoned with.

Weedpro/NCP/Rotten Apple was saying the same thing when the whole CIRB thing was started by the company. Then WJ had their complaint dismissed, ALPA was awarded their remedy on the LOA issue and the s. 10 ULP is going to a full hearing.

Right now ALPA is in a far better position than the company.

I never really liked unions in the past, but support this MEC 100%.
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J Roc
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by J Roc »

I love this quote from another poster...

"Your need for a Union is two fold. Protection from an Employer who is not always completely fair in its dealings AND protection from your fellow pilot who might sell you out for personal gain."

ALPA protects us from ourselves, but more specifically, protects us from pilots who are as greedy and selfish as the execs themselves. We need to distance these pilots from the launch codes and thier ability to nuke our livelihoods and our profession.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Does the blacklist apply also to the short term contract pilot? They are paying $1200 usd per day so above Westjet pay.
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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:28 am I’m guessing by this short term position to train Swoop pilots that the operation is on schedule to start operations in June. FA positions have also been posted.

Other than showing that (at least) one of ALPA’s tools is ineffective (the blacklist), what has ALPA achieved with respect to Swoop? Oh yes, they have guaranteed that WJ pilots can’t fly those airplanes. Good show!

Unfortunately, some still cling to the belief that the Statutory Freeze offers some means to get WJ pilots into those seats, at full WJ pilot T’s & C’s. That seems unlikely at this point.

Even the most ardent ALPA Fanboy must be questioning the situation now. Perhaps the new line of luggage accessories will prove to be a hot seller.

85 days.
No German quotes John? How boring. What is going on is because of the company, not ALPA.

Why dose this matter to you anyway John? You don’t care about or group, you only care about yourself.
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tbaylx
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by tbaylx »

J Roc wrote: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:02 pm I love this quote from another poster...

"Your need for a Union is two fold. Protection from an Employer who is not always completely fair in its dealings AND protection from your fellow pilot who might sell you out for personal gain."

ALPA protects us from ourselves, but more specifically, protects us from pilots who are as greedy and selfish as the execs themselves. We need to distance these pilots from the launch codes and thier ability to nuke our livelihoods and our profession.
That's one point of view, I think this quote from PPRUNE is more realistic.

"Here is a piece of advice for you from nearly 30 years of flying, and well over two decades of doing it professionally on three different continents:

The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".

Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.

Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.

Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.

Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.

So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market."

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J Roc
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by J Roc »

tbaylx, thanks for posting that persons perspective and I agree with most of it, however, it doesn't really apply to our current situation. Close but not really. While yes, all the things that this person listed are probably true, and you could even include WJ in there - the scrappy little airline that could - it doesn't excuse what WJ of today, a multi-billion dollar corporation, is doing to it's current pilots AND the support they receive from greedy-short minded pilots. This entire swoop nonsense isn't "innovative" but rather an attempt by WJ to circumvent organized labour. What we have here is a company that's looking to burn down certain parts of the house for the insurance money while certain pilots supply the match. This is where ALPA comes in with the fire house...

While the poster of your quote brings up some good points, they're also glossing over a lot of history. A LOT of history which doesn't really support a major corporations attack on our livelihoods and profession.

All that aside, because 50 years of corporate greed in aviation can't be summed up in one page with a few emoticons, I have to ask - how has that been working our for us?? Is the constant reset of costs and degradation to our profession making aviation a desirable and sought out profession? I would say no, but don't take my word for it, just ask a recruiter from Encore, Jazz or any other regional airline. Kids aren't singing up for this profession and I don't blame them.

I've been in this business for 20 years and have made it to what some would consider the top spot in Canada. My kids have been watching my journey and struggle to "the top spot" from the front row and guess what? They have ZERO desire to follow in the old mans foot steps. I asked my oldest son "do you want to be a pilot some day", his response " umm, I don’t think so". Praise Jebus!!! My boys already smarter than me at the age of 12!

So, instead of justifying this "innovation" of greedy executives, just to watch our jobs and profession degrade into oblivion, let's try a new approach. Let's stop using our past history and mistakes as an excuse to continue down the same path and let's band together, all of us. We're entering a pilot shortage unlike anything we've ever seen. A pilot shortage that airlines are afraid to admit, because admitting such a thing puts them at a disadvantage during negotiations. A disadvantage that disturbs their narrative that you, the pilot who accepts less than you deserve, are part of something "innovative". Trust me, you’re not, because as your quote indicates - airlines have been doing this since mosses wore short pants.

J RO


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein
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skybaron
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by skybaron »

Tbaylx and J Roc

Great read and perspectives on the last two posts above here. Thanks.

I have zero doubt that the poster on the pprune forum has seen pilots stomp on each other for the last 30 years while management across the board showing their crocodile smiles and fattening their wallets.

What I do doubt is that the same 30 year fellow probably hasn’t seen a global pilot shortage that is currently present to this scale. Ever. Couple the pilot shortage with an exponential increase in air travel worldwide, only the truly desperate should be accommodating sub par or lower WAWCON.
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tbaylx
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by tbaylx »

Not everyone shares the Westjet pilot's opinion that Swoop flying should "belong" to them and it's an attempt to end run the union, or that the compensation package is degrading the profession etc. But that's been gone over here again and again. I can appreciate that there are different opinions and respect that

Ironically the pilot shortage and lack of young people joining the profession is probably the cure and will increase wages and working conditions far more effectively than a union because even a union has to negotiate within the parameters of economic reality
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by hurtin'albertan »

tbaylx: You sound like a guy whose trying to justify a poor career choice. I'm gonna take a wag and offer some free advice. In a couple weeks, ask your instructor to break for lunch early. That way you can swoop all the big pan offerings before the rest of the campus folk get down there to Sunterras.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by FL410AV8R »

tbaylx wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:11 am Not everyone shares the Westjet pilot's opinion that Swoop flying should "belong" to them and it's an attempt to end run the union, or that the compensation package is degrading the profession etc. But that's been gone over here again and again. I can appreciate that there are different opinions and respect that
It is not important that everyone else agrees that the Swoop flying and aircraft belong to the WestJet pilots and that this is just the latest episode from a company that is militantly anti-union and is used to getting its own way all the time WRT changes to employment conditions and doesn't like not being able to control the message and control the outcome.

What is important is that the majority of WestJet pilots believe this and support our negotiators and MEC accordingly.

From my conversations on the line, this is very much the case even among many who in the past have been vocally anti-ALPA. Management's 20+ year honeymoon is over, the trust has been betrayed.

WestJet pilot unity will win the day. When that day is will depend on just how much more damage the new CEO is willing to inflict on what was once the most rabidly loyal pilot group in the country. The new guy has probably missed his admittedly very finite opportunity to repair this relationship IMHO.

The latest slap in the face in the form of the contract training positions through CAE are possibly the last nail in the coffin of WestJet pilot culture for many.
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tbaylx
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by tbaylx »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:21 am tbaylx: You sound like a guy whose trying to justify a poor career choice. I'm gonna take a wag and offer some free advice. In a couple weeks, ask your instructor to break for lunch early. That way you can swoop all the big pan offerings before the rest of the campus folk get down there to Sunterras.
:lol: no doubt, I've made plenty of good and poor career choices over the last 25 years. I don't really feel I have to justify any of them to anyone however. Thanks for the advice on the campus but YYC is a bit out of the way.
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J Roc
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by J Roc »

tybalyx, first off, thank you for your engagement. You seem like a reasonable person and we need more reasonable and respectful debate if we're going to make this profession better for everyone.

Secondly, while I don't agree with your assessment regarding swoop, I will not shame you into sharing my opinion. I will however try to understand why you feel the way that you do.

I think we all want the same thing - stable and long careers that will provide for our families. This in itself is a selfish request that puts my family and I first, however, I feel that strength in numbers is a better approach in obtaining my selfish request. Loyalty and integrity while watching out for your brothers and sisters in arms. Holding the line, not only as a unified WJ pilot group but as a unified professional group. Do this and everyone prosperous while building
an industry that our children will be proud to inherit. Or, continue on our current path, where we'll find ourselves in pink airplanes in 20 years and fighting off the next "innovative" attack from corporate american. Which at that time you'll be asking your fellow avaitors "how can you honestly feel that this is OK??"

Obviously, understanding and appreciating this situation will vary based on personal perspective. While I touched on my personal perspective as a 20 year veteran with 10 years of service to WJ, who feels that we need to do better as a professional group. Who feels that we're finally in a position to demand better, I've yet to hear your perspective.

So...How can you honestly feel that this is OK??

J RO
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Last edited by J Roc on Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by privateer »

Here’s a question. Will the Maintenance engineer at YYJ or YXX walk over to that Swoop 737 and change the tire and brakes for 30% less an hour?

Doubtful.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Airbrake »

privateer wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:57 pm Here’s a question. Will the Maintenance engineer at YYJ or YXX walk over to that Swoop 737 and change the tire and brakes for 30% less an hour?

Doubtful.

I was in YXX 2 days ago and asked the mtce folks his exact question. They laughed and said no they will not.
The only 2 groups who are not being directly contracted from WJ to Swoop are the Pilots and FA’s. Mtce, dispatch, load planning are all just contracted out and the individuals doing the work will be paid their normal rate , ESPP, profit share etc.
I am unable to comment on the CSA’s as I have not been able to find any comments anywhere about what they will be doing. If history repeats we will see a Swoop base pay structure for them if it does not already exists.
We saw that with the Encore roll out.
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tbaylx
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by tbaylx »

J Roc wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:57 pm tybalyx, first off, thank you for your engagement. You seem like a reasonable person and we need more reasonable and respectful debate if we're going to make this profession better for everyone.

Secondly, while I don't agree with your assessment regarding swoop, I will not shame you into sharing my opinion. I will however try to understand why you feel the way that you do.

I think we all want the same thing - stable and long careers that will provide for our families. This in itself is a selfish request that puts my family and I first, however, I feel that strength in numbers is a better approach in obtaining my selfish request. Loyalty and integrity while watching out for your brothers and sisters in arms. Holding the line, not only as a unified WJ pilot group but as a unified professional group. Do this and everyone prosperous while building
an industry that our children will be proud to inherit. Or, continue on our current path, where we'll find ourselves in pink airplanes in 20 years and fighting off the next "innovative" attack from corporate american. Which at that time you'll be asking your fellow avaitors "how can you honestly feel that this is OK??"

Obviously, understanding and appreciating this situation will vary based on personal perspective. While I touched on my personal perspective as a 20 year veteran with 10 years of service to WJ, who feels that we need to do better as a professional group. Who feels that we're finally in a position to demand better, I've yet to hear your perspective.

So...How can you honestly feel that this is OK??

J RO
Good questions and I understand that point of view. If the group stands together as a unified group then there is power in numbers. That works well for a group on a common seniority list.

Here's where that breaks down in reality. The seniority system. If you're in the Westjet family then that makes perfect sense. It starts to fall apart when applied to those not on the Westjet seniority list. There are plenty of people around (think ex canjet, zoom, c3, sandbox carriers) who are stuck in a position well below their qualifications and experience would suggest due to the seniority system. You're asking them to avoid taking a job that would improve their position for whatever reason so that pilots on the Westjet property can get ahead. Then they can start at the bottom of the Westjet seniority list as an Encore F/O knowing that years from now when they can hold a left seat at Swoop that the wages will be a bit higher.

Or they can take a job that's posted on the open market knowing full well what the terms and conditions are and they've decided that it works for them for whatever reasons they may have. Even if it's less than what a Westjet captain currently makes, that's a position and a pay rate that isn't available to them. If it was a national seniority system among all pilots and you were hired into a company based upon your experience then the whole stand together thing might work. Regardless of ALPA and unions, wages are driven by the market. If tomorrow they rolled out single pilot airliners how much negotiating power do you thing your MEC would have to raise wages if there were double the number of pilot's available? If Swoop was really paying too little then no one qualified would have applied.

Here's my take on the whole thing. And I'm not privy to the internal goings on so this is an outsider's perspective but I've done my share of union business and negotiations.

From a Westjet pilot's point of view this thing should never have gone to the street. That it did is a colossal failure and miscalculation by the MEC. There was room for negotiation there. Sure you might not have got Westjet pilots in their at current wages, but that in itself wouldn't have been that bad. You would have made the positions available to pilots on the property who could have gone if they wanted, or stayed if they didn't. It would have been a compromise to the company to give them a year or two to get things going, much like you did with Encore and accepting 85% or whatever of industry standard wages for a D8. Then a couple of years from now you would have had the opportunity to negotiate a new contract with higher wages going in saying, hey look what we did for you to help get this thing started and profitable, now it's time to pay us back. Goodwill built and opportunity given to all Westjet and Encore pilots in the meantime. If you dont' want to go for the lower wages (which may have even been negotiated higher than current Swoop compensation) then stay in your current position at the same pay, no problem. At least the positions are staying in house in the meantime.

Instead your negotiating committee took a 100% or nothing stance, which never works well in negotiations and gambled that Swoop would never get enough qualified people to start up. For good measure they threw in a blacklist to further deter people from coming. And then of course they figured that the flying was already theirs because of the current clause in the contract about Westjet pilot's flying Westjet airplanes. They took a confrontational tone that was equally matched from the company's side. As much as some think this is all on Westjet management, a negotiation failure is a shared failure. They miscalculated, and now the entire pilot group is paying for it. If the majority feel that it should be Westjet wages or nothing then your MEC has well represented you in a losing cause.

I'm not saying the company is blameless, they also allowed things to get to this stage, but ultimately the Westjet and Encore pilots are the losers in this fight.

As indicated above there are plenty of well qualified people out there that are very much interested in getting in on the ground floor of a promising start up, even if it means not making current Westjet wages. Much like the original Westjet pilots started out making less than Canadian 737 pilots. Your MEC is asking them to fight your fight that they got you into with them having no say or some intangible long term benefit to the industry as a whole. Except that utopian scenario never plays out because it's the ultimately the market for qualified pilots that drives wages. China is currently a good example of that.

That's the way this outsider sees it. I can see a Westjet F/O's point of view, i just don't think you've picked a winnable fight.
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