Swoop Blacklist

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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#151 Post by Art Garfunkel » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:19 pm

US Regionals?….Good luck. They can't even find pilots to fly point to point in the US. Plus, I think they are a lot more expensive than say 5 years ago.

International ULCC's?….Isn't Norwegian just about bankrupt?

Jazz too expensive?….probably. They have a VP for this and a VP for that and then 6 more VP's that who knows what they do. Plus, who made them expensive? Oh, that's right. The CPA deal that made the sale of Jazz possible raising all kinds of capital for the purchases of 777's and EMB's circa 2004-2007. (I know it wasn't just the sale of Jazz that raised capital)

Jazz PILOTS too expensive?…..absolutely not. What's wrong with having a regional pilot making a good wage. They are, after all, pilots that complete flights safely and professionally just like any other pilot. In one day, they move close to the same amount of passengers as a mainline pilot. Those passengers are high yielding passengers too. The US market place is changing rapidly with more mainline flights taking over regional flights due to the lack of 1500 hr ATPL's. US regionals are fighting over those pilots and thus have increased their wages significantly.

So yes, let's all work for less so everyone can become a pilot. Wait. Haven't we gone down this road before and low and behold the young people are just not getting into this profession because the pay is low. Now what? I will let you know as soon as I get a life.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#152 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm

So yes, let's all work for less so everyone can become a pilot. Wait. Haven't we gone down this road before and low and behold the young people are just not getting into this profession because the pay is low.
The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
Now what? I will let you know as soon as I get a life.
Are you saying you have no life working as a pilot?

And you are working for low wages?
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#153 Post by FL410AV8R » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:14 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm

The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.

The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#154 Post by AvifiskAlly » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:12 am

FL410AV8R wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:14 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm

The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.

The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
Lots of jobs carry massive responsibility and liability, pilots are probably top half but also doing a job that requires 12 - 18 months of education past high school soooooooooo. Great profession, deserve to be paid well, its a job of constant learning and testing so I am not putting it down, just saying the old “liability/responsibility” argument is ridiculous
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#155 Post by saltypilot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:42 am

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:12 am
FL410AV8R wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:14 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm

The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.

The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
Lots of jobs carry massive responsibility and liability, pilots are probably top half but also doing a job that requires 12 - 18 months of education past high school soooooooooo. Great profession, deserve to be paid well, its a job of constant learning and testing so I am not putting it down, just saying the old “liability/responsibility” argument is ridiculous
Oh my, spoken like a true manager...The CEO would be proud.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#156 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:08 am

As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.
I never really thought much about it but now that you ask, yes I probably fit into the average Canadian description and my flying abilities might be above average if I base it on what I was paid to fly.

So I really don't understand why you called my statement dumb?
The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
And the majority of pilots do not fly as a Captain on a heavy jet, pay is based on the revenue an airplane makes the more passengers the more revenue thus more money to pay the crew.

And speaking of how difficult they are to fly you don't find TOGA buttons in most airplanes.
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truedude
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#157 Post by truedude » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:07 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:08 am
And the majority of pilots do not fly as a Captain on a heavy jet, pay is based on the revenue an airplane makes the more passengers the more revenue thus more money to pay the crew.

And speaking of how difficult they are to fly you don't find TOGA buttons in most airplanes.
This is a ridiculously stupid statement. Pilots are payed (or should be) based on the liability they assume. Revenue does not come into play. I pilot of a 777 assumes more liability than that of a Q400 ( which I fly). If the pilots on a 777 Fu#@ up, it could mean the write off of a 250 million dollar aircraft and the loss of 400 souls. My mistake, where as costly, clearly does not have the same impact.

You also said earlier that there were a lot of other professions where the liability undertaken is high... Please name one where a single mistake made in a split second can lead to the loss of 400 people and the write off of 250 million in equipment.

I am late to the party here, so if you are a pilot, then it is sad to see how you view your profession. If you are a manager or some other entity sitting on the sideline, then go crawl back under your rock until you have some idea of what you are talking about.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#158 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:41 am

You also said earlier that there were a lot of other professions where the liability undertaken is high... Please name one where a single mistake made in a split second can lead to the loss of 400 people and the write off of 250 million in equipment.

Well a large cruise ship comes to mind, they carry thousands of people.
I am late to the party here, so if you are a pilot, then it is sad to see how you view your profession. If you are a manager or some other entity sitting on the sideline, then go crawl back under your rock until you have some idea of what you are talking about.
Actually I am a pilot and worked in the industry for over fifty years and yes I was in management for years.

And I also owned several of my own companies both fixed wing and rotary wing.

And I worked in government in a regulatory position.

You should work on your social interaction skills because I have as much right as you do to express my opinion without being told to crawl under a rock.

It is attitudes like yours that lead me to believe that being a pilot does not automatically mean you are something special.

I am finished with this now.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#159 Post by Transonic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:55 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:41 am

Well a large cruise ship comes to mind, they carry thousands of people.

Excellent example. It takes 20+ years to attain the experience required to Command a large ship and they make as much as an airline captain.

AvifiskAlly would argue the salary is too high as they only require 24 months of classroom studies at an inferior college no less. Transiting the ocean with 5000 souls or cargo measured in the 100's of millions, AvifiskAlly demands carpenter wages.
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Last edited by Transonic on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#160 Post by Transonic » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:24 pm

duplicate
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#161 Post by FL410AV8R » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:02 pm

I truly fail to understand these individuals who claim to be a pilot in one breath and in the next denigrate our profession and advocate for reduced working conditions because after all it is just market forces at play.

I would love to hear the justification for the outrageous CEO and executive salaries being paid to individuals with zero direct liability to anyone but themselves.

Any pilot who advocates for reduced pay or working conditions for those following them should either lead by example and take one of those reduced rate positions themselves or STFU and stop eating our young. For the first time in decades pilots may be in a position of strength when it comes to WAWCON as this global pilot shortage continues to manifest itself. Let’s not waste this opportunity. They told me there was a pilot shortage when I was in flight school 30+ years ago and finally it has arrived.

Remember, you don’t get paid what you are worth, you get paid what you negotiate.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#162 Post by AvifiskAlly » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:49 pm

Duplicate
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#163 Post by GRK2 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:17 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:41 am
You also said earlier that there were a lot of other professions where the liability undertaken is high... Please name one where a single mistake made in a split second can lead to the loss of 400 people and the write off of 250 million in equipment.

Well a large cruise ship comes to mind, they carry thousands of people.
I am late to the party here, so if you are a pilot, then it is sad to see how you view your profession. If you are a manager or some other entity sitting on the sideline, then go crawl back under your rock until you have some idea of what you are talking about.
Actually I am a pilot and worked in the industry for over fifty years and yes I was in management for years.

And I also owned several of my own companies both fixed wing and rotary wing.

And I worked in government in a regulatory position.

You should work on your social interaction skills because I have as much right as you do to express my opinion without being told to crawl under a rock.

It is attitudes like yours that lead me to believe that being a pilot does not automatically mean you are something special.

I am finished with this now.
Hahahahaha...schooled by a Master!download/file.php?mode=view&id=13838
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truedude
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#164 Post by truedude » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:36 pm

GRK2 wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:17 am
Hahahahaha...schooled by a Master!download/file.php?mode=view&id=13838
Not sure how you would consider that being school. His example was not a precise parallel. Even though bad decisions can result in the loss of life and damage to expensive equipment, 400 people don't tend to die in an instant. And even if you consider it to be a parallel, ship captains are well compensated.

As for his resume, he should know better to suggest the pilots are payed based on the revenue the airplane they fly generates. That is just insanity on the face of it. He says he worked in the government in a regulatory position, which I assume to mean Transport Canada. If so, then I have even less respect for him. For decades we saw operators continuously break the law, pressure pilots to fly overloaded or into unsavory flight conditions, while transport did NOTHING. Most of us who have been in the industry for the last two decades know of at least one person who lost their lives working for one of these companies over the years. We all knew it was going on, and Transport can't claim they didn't. It was just far too convenient to put it all on the shoulders of the PIC, while offering him no protection should he say no and be fired for it. Even today, we are one of the last nations in the western world to implement new duty regulations.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#165 Post by altiplano » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:11 pm

CWE, you certainly have a right to an opinion, but what makes it qualified?

"worked in the industry for over 50 years"
"owned several of my own companies"
"worked in government in a regulatory position"

Perhaps your best before date is past?
Which airlines did you work for? Types flown?
Which companies did you own?
What was your position with the regulator? What did you accomplish?

Ships' Captains had to be the worst example to support your argument...

I have a friend who's a coastal pilot in Vancouver and makes more than a 777 Captain at any NA airline taking everything from cruise ships to freighters out of the coastal waterway. He pays taxes in Canada though, cruise/shipping line Captains won't pay tax.... You don't have to believe me though...
Cruise-line companies might be in dire financial straits but their captains are enjoying life on the ocean wave.

The average salary for a cruise-liner captain jumped 22.8 per cent last year to US$153,379, (Dh563,435) with wage rates for master mariners aboard less glamorous bulk carriers and container ships receiving a 16 per cent boost to $110,981.

Cruise-liner captains receive substantially more than the average airline pilot's annual salary in the UAE, which is currently $122,647.

Chief officers aboard cargo ships did even better than their captains in terms of pay rises, logging a 27.5 per cent increase to $82,737 a year.

"Even though the shipping industry is being buffeted by poor vessel earnings, rising costs and ever more stringent regulations, salaries continue to rise," said Mark Charman, the chief executive of the Faststream Recruitment Group, a specialist maritime recruiter based in the United Kingdom that provided the salary survey data.

"The sector suffers from a skill shortage and the pool of highly qualified people continues to shrink. This is both the legacy of a lack of training in the 1980s during the previous downturn and the often perceived low status of jobs in the shipping industry. Companies recognise that good people are not necessarily readily available and need to be retained and properly incentivised."

The survey, carried out last year, was based on the responses of 4,000 shipping professionals working in all the main shipping centres as well as seafaring officers worldwide. It showed the most pressing skills shortage was among second engineers with five years experience.

"It is those candidates in particular who are receiving the top salaries," the survey's authors said.

In other maritime sectors, the survey shows captains working in the offshore industry are also earning a healthy $128,247 on average, although their increase was a more modest 7 per cent last year.

Salaries for ocean-goers, however, do not compare to the specialist rates earned by some inshore marine pilots. On the Panama Canal, senior pilots can make up to $450,000 per year, including overtime, or working "voluntary shifts" above the normal schedule of five weeks on/three weeks off.

San Francisco Bay and the lower Mississippi River are other examples of heavily trafficked waterways where small pilot groups enjoy a statutory monopoly on all work. Last year, members of the San Francisco Bar Pilots reportedly received an average net income of $451,336.
https://www.thenational.ae/business/cru ... s-1.393000
Because maritime pilots have advanced to the top of the maritime profession and are responsible for the most dangerous part of a voyage, they are generally well compensated.[citation needed]

The Florida Alliance of Maritime Organizations reported that Florida pilots salaries range from US$100,000 to US$400,000 annually. This was similar to other US states with large ports.[11] Columbia River bar pilots earn about US$180,000 per year.[12] A 2008 review of pilot salary in the United States showed that pay ranged from about US$250,000 to over US$500,000 per year.[13]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pilot

If you don't know what a coastal pilot does:
https://youtu.be/9p_Ji4UHPtM
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#166 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:54 pm

I decided to answer this part as it was an interesting position I was paid for.
What was your position with the regulator?
I was hired as an adviser on new rules the Greek CAA were putting into place for training.
What did you accomplish?
They were delighted with my suggestions and treated me and paid me very well which was accomplishment enough for me.

Also I worked for some of the biggest organisations in the world and was paid very well by them....for instance I made as much in three weeks flying for Mirimax as some pilots make in a year.

Perhaps your best before date is past?
Interesting question.

So lets examine it closer.

I have managed to survive over fifty years in commercial aviation with an unblemished record and finally retired because I could afford to.

So now that my " best before date is past " should I just stop reading and commenting on aviation forums because aviation has evolved way past my ability to understand it now?

What have you accomplished that entitles you to question me?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#167 Post by moe » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:41 pm

Chuck E is back!!
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#168 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:52 pm

Chuck E is back!!
Yeh it's me and I hope to hang around for a few more years.

I don't seem to be ageing at all and I am still as healthy as I was when I retired in 2005.

I really get a charge out of people who think old age is somehow a failure and we are somehow inferior to them.

How can anyone be that stupid? :roll:
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#169 Post by altiplano » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:29 pm

Oh, CWE / Cat Driver / Chuck E...

Of course! Three handles now.

Did you forget your password?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#170 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:36 pm

I may be past my best before date but at least I can read and understand what I am reading.

No, I have not forgot my password and I don't have three usernames I have two.

Cat Driver and my initials C.W.E. .

The poster who said Chuck E. is back was making a comment.....but you obviously can not figure that out.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#171 Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:56 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:36 pm
I may be past my best before date but at least I can read and understand what I am reading.

No, I have not forgot my password and I don't have three usernames I have two.

Cat Driver and my initials C.W.E. .

The poster who said Chuck E. is back was making a comment.....but you obviously can not figure that out.
I always thought this was you too.
Did I misunderstand that?
Maybe you can see why I thought it was you.
I mean it's your name, right?
I don't know how I could be so stupid.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#172 Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Anyway.

Maybe we for off on the wrong foot again.

I was really just pointing out that Ships' Captains get paid well to commensurate with their unique skillset, experience levels, and the high levels of liability they assume.

Best of luck to you
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#173 Post by Boney » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:04 pm

So, if pilot "A" heeds ALPA's request and not apply to Swoop, and pilot "B" applies and is hired, what will ALPA say to pilot A, a year or so when an agreement is put in place and all is forgiven, even accepting those that are already on Swoop's property?

There's the rub.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#174 Post by altiplano » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:40 pm

Cat Driver? CWE? Chuck Ellsworth?

Are you there? Did you forget your username and password again?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#175 Post by GAF » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:05 pm

Don't be such a dick. Chuck has more experience in his baby toe than you could ever hope for. He helped me with some float stuff, way back in '93, when his nickname was capt p..... hell of a guy.
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