Swoop Blacklist

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RidersRule
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#226 Post by RidersRule » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:49 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:11 am
RidersRule wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Wow. Why move sideways (definitely not forwards) from sky to poop when there is a 90% chance poop never gets off the ground?
To be fair, 95% of all statistics cited on the internet are made up on the spot by the poster.
99% of all avcanada posters that post under multiple user names are idiots....🤣
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WeedPro2000
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#227 Post by WeedPro2000 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:27 pm

It's not the first time I've been in the 1%.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#228 Post by tbaylx » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:17 am

Transonic wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:18 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:56 am
If we're going to make up odds I'd say it more likely 90% chance Swoop launches on schedule in June with or without ALPA.
I would say that statement would be relevant prior to last Thursday, however I strongly suspect the game has changed now with our new CEO.

The BOD intervened in a situation that was going to lead to the inevitable strike vote in May. Not an easy decision as seen by the 5% drop and distress displayed by analysts in the media. looking from the outside, chaotic has been the choice of words.

However, from the inside, the opposite is true. Our previous CEO was overly confident that he could win. He believed it was worthy of the risk as the reward would be recurrent in subsequent negotiations and it would send a strong signal to other employee groups. The BOD had less confidence and felt the risk was to high. Sometime last week, a falling out occurred.

We now have a new CEO who needs to demonstrate fast that he can execute Swoop and avoid a strike over the next 13 weeks.

There is only one way to do that.

BTW, our lowest pilot is #1960ish. Our lowest YYZ 737 CA is #924.
Maybe, but getting a high percentage strike mandate isn't as easy as you may think. It isn't a negotiation panacea and it's a risky game of chicken where no one wins.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#229 Post by Victory » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:16 am

Norwegian Air plans to fly between Canada and Europe this summer. I wonder if the 787's will have to get Swooped in order to compete with their prices.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#230 Post by calgaryguy » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:03 am

Any truth to the rumour that pilots hired OTS are being offered 2 years salary for their troubles if the Swoop thing doesn't doesn't fly due to the outstanding ULP?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#231 Post by RidersRule » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:16 am

calgaryguy wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:03 am
Any truth to the rumour that pilots hired OTS are being offered 2 years salary for their troubles if the Swoop thing doesn't doesn't fly due to the outstanding ULP?
According to the latest email from the company it's not true...
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#232 Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:46 am

Where did the two year salary guarantee rumour/info originate from? The earliest source I have is from a communication from the WJ ALPA MEC. Have any hirees at Swoop said anything regarding this? (One smoke signal for NO, two smoke signals for YES)
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#233 Post by Jean-Pierre » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:51 am

:smt033: :smt033:
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Demeter
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#234 Post by Demeter » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:39 pm

Just another example of the weekly mec updates not being truthful. You would have thought they would put fact into those notes. Sad really.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#235 Post by Mach1 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:46 pm

Victory wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:16 am
Norwegian Air plans to fly between Canada and Europe this summer. I wonder if the 787's will have to get Swooped in order to compete with their prices.
Swing and a miss. Keep trying slugger, you'll get there eventually.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#236 Post by #37 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:32 pm

Demeter wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:39 pm
Just another example of the weekly mec updates not being truthful. You would have thought they would put fact into those notes. Sad really.
The note says "We were informed.... If this is true..." It was framed as unconfirmed.
You are looking for a lie that isn't there, then calling it a lie on an external forum.
Then recklessly call it "just another example".
I know basic language arts are not a requirement for WestJet pilots, but you have gone beyond into the malicious.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#237 Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:07 pm

#37 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:32 pm

The note says "We were informed.... If this is true..." It was framed as unconfirmed.
You are looking for a lie that isn't there, then calling it a lie on an external forum.
Then recklessly call it "just another example".
I know basic language arts are not a requirement for WestJet pilots, but you have gone beyond into the malicious.
So let me get this straight, if I send an email to all WJ pilots that I heard a rumour that pilot H.L. likes to xxxxxxxxxxx in the back of a 1977 full size Chevy van while parked outside of elementary schools, that’s okay because I say “If it’s true”. Doesn’t that seem a tad reckless? For a body representing the pilots at WJ, I think spreading rumo(u)rs seems to be less than professional behaviour.

Can we agree on that? Or do you think it’s okay for the MEC to spread rumo(u)rs?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#238 Post by #37 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:53 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:07 pm
#37 wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:32 pm

The note says "We were informed.... If this is true..." It was framed as unconfirmed.
You are looking for a lie that isn't there, then calling it a lie on an external forum.
Then recklessly call it "just another example".
I know basic language arts are not a requirement for WestJet pilots, but you have gone beyond into the malicious.
So let me get this straight, if I send an email to all WJ pilots that I heard a rumour that pilot H.L. likes to xxxxxxxxxxx in the back of a 1977 full size Chevy van while parked outside of elementary schools, that’s okay because I say “If it’s true”. Doesn’t that seem a tad reckless? For a body representing the pilots at WJ, I think spreading rumo(u)rs seems to be less than professional behaviour.

Can we agree on that? Or do you think it’s okay for the MEC to spread rumo(u)rs?
Oh no, that's completely true, except it was a Dodge, and an old folks home.
And yes, I agree. Probably more to the story than meets the eye, but yes, they were informed, and used it as an example, "if true".
Perhaps reckless, perhaps a shot across the bow, perhaps there is now documentation. Nowhere near enough to label untruth. They were quite open that it was unconfirmed, contrary to Demeter's interpretation.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#239 Post by jjj » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:20 pm

I find the wording interesting in Cam's memo.

As far as offering the two year thing - Cam indicates that they are not. The note did not clarify if they ever did though. If any such offers are rescinded then both stories are true.

Cheers.

JJJ
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#240 Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:21 pm

Well they had me convinced! Probably better that that type of info is distributed at the Unity nights and save confirmed information for official MEC documentation. Or post it under à Rumours section.

And if it was a Dodge, did it have a sailboat painting on the side? If so, whatever you were doing was in TM’s van in YQM. Ewww.

Coffee is on me the next time I’m not in a rush.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#241 Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:47 am

I’m just glad that pilots like Weedpro haven’t signed a card and never will sign a card. I don’t want people like you having a voice in my future at WestJet.

The MEC has accountability and a recall, something the past WJPA didn’t have. So much has happened to enlighten our group as to where we stand in the pilot world. Pay, scheduling, benefits etc we are so far behind everyone else it’s embarrassing no thanks to the old representation.

Rumours are a fact of life at an airline, and pilots like Weedpro feed off of them to advance there agenda.

John, take the time to read the comparison document again which is fact. Maybe you’ll figure it out one day. Good luck buddy
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#242 Post by WeedPro2000 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:28 am

I’m guessing by this short term position to train Swoop pilots that the operation is on schedule to start operations in June. FA positions have also been posted.

Other than showing that (at least) one of ALPA’s tools is ineffective (the blacklist), what has ALPA achieved with respect to Swoop? Oh yes, they have guaranteed that WJ pilots can’t fly those airplanes. Good show!

Unfortunately, some still cling to the belief that the Statutory Freeze offers some means to get WJ pilots into those seats, at full WJ pilot T’s & C’s. That seems unlikely at this point.

Even the most ardent ALPA Fanboy must be questioning the situation now. Perhaps the new line of luggage accessories will prove to be a hot seller.

85 days.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#243 Post by Legacy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:59 am

Retire already. Please!
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#244 Post by Checklist » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:31 am

What really blows me away JS, is your justification that pilots deserve to be treated in such a disrespectful way.

Why can’t the relationship be just as strong with ALPA as it was with the pa? Why wasn’t the pilot group given a proper opportunity to negotiate the WJDL flying swoop?

What management is doing is not okay. It’s a fine thank- you for our groups contribution to 51 consecutive profitable quarters.

At least I know ALPA is going to bat for me, regardless of the outcome.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#245 Post by Go Guns » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:44 am

Why wasn’t the pilot group given a proper opportunity to negotiate WJDL flying swoop?
To be fair, they likely were given the option to negotiate, so long as it was lower pay, which the membership clearly has little appetite for.

As far as JS, his comment seems to assume this is all over and decided, which I highly doubt it is.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#246 Post by Bede » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:23 pm

Some people can't be reasoned with.

Weedpro/NCP/Rotten Apple was saying the same thing when the whole CIRB thing was started by the company. Then WJ had their complaint dismissed, ALPA was awarded their remedy on the LOA issue and the s. 10 ULP is going to a full hearing.

Right now ALPA is in a far better position than the company.

I never really liked unions in the past, but support this MEC 100%.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#247 Post by J Roc » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:02 pm

I love this quote from another poster...

"Your need for a Union is two fold. Protection from an Employer who is not always completely fair in its dealings AND protection from your fellow pilot who might sell you out for personal gain."

ALPA protects us from ourselves, but more specifically, protects us from pilots who are as greedy and selfish as the execs themselves. We need to distance these pilots from the launch codes and thier ability to nuke our livelihoods and our profession.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#248 Post by Jean-Pierre » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:17 pm

Does the blacklist apply also to the short term contract pilot? They are paying $1200 usd per day so above Westjet pay.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#249 Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:52 pm

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:28 am
I’m guessing by this short term position to train Swoop pilots that the operation is on schedule to start operations in June. FA positions have also been posted.

Other than showing that (at least) one of ALPA’s tools is ineffective (the blacklist), what has ALPA achieved with respect to Swoop? Oh yes, they have guaranteed that WJ pilots can’t fly those airplanes. Good show!

Unfortunately, some still cling to the belief that the Statutory Freeze offers some means to get WJ pilots into those seats, at full WJ pilot T’s & C’s. That seems unlikely at this point.

Even the most ardent ALPA Fanboy must be questioning the situation now. Perhaps the new line of luggage accessories will prove to be a hot seller.

85 days.
No German quotes John? How boring. What is going on is because of the company, not ALPA.

Why dose this matter to you anyway John? You don’t care about or group, you only care about yourself.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#250 Post by tbaylx » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:11 am

J Roc wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:02 pm
I love this quote from another poster...

"Your need for a Union is two fold. Protection from an Employer who is not always completely fair in its dealings AND protection from your fellow pilot who might sell you out for personal gain."

ALPA protects us from ourselves, but more specifically, protects us from pilots who are as greedy and selfish as the execs themselves. We need to distance these pilots from the launch codes and thier ability to nuke our livelihoods and our profession.
That's one point of view, I think this quote from PPRUNE is more realistic.

"Here is a piece of advice for you from nearly 30 years of flying, and well over two decades of doing it professionally on three different continents:

The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".

Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.

Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.

Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.

Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.

So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market."

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