I just spat my coffee all over my phone .
Best ... line ... ever ...
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
These rates may look similar to Sunwing's, but up on arrival, any pilot is going to find out that they are far behind a Sunwing pilot.
Go check out Allegiants pay and get back to me... believe it or not a ULCC can pay well in fact better than even mainline WJNewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.
Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.
I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.
Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.
Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.
I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.
Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.Airbrake wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am
I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Rouge has been incedibly successful for Air Canada and is one of the reasons for the impressive performance of the stock price in the last two years. Apparently the Rouge pilots are among the happiest of the pilots in the AC world, with paychecks that support that view. My own observations on the YYZ inter-terminal train would support the view that Rouge pilots, generally, appear happier, if facial expressions are any indicator.rudder wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 amSame at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.Airbrake wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am
I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
I cannot help but think that your view is not held by the majority of WJ pilots who recently voted in favour of unionization, a say in WAWCON, and the right to bargain in a well defined legal and procedural framework. If WJ wants an AC/Rouge arrangement, then that should be a proposal at the bargaining table.NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:12 amRouge has been incedibly successful for Air Canada and is one of the reasons for the impressive performance of the stock price in the last two years. Apparently the Rouge pilots are among the happiest of the pilots in the AC world, with paychecks that support that view. My own observations on the YYZ inter-terminal train would support the view that Rouge pilots, generally, appear happier, if facial expressions are any indicator.rudder wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 amSame at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.Airbrake wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am
I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
It's too bad you didn't go to AC when you had the chance Rudder or you'd be making those wages too!
Rouge was forced on AC pilots by final arbitration and they are all AC pilots on the same list, also the Rouge initial contract was a carbon copy of WJ! Not even close to the same thing a swoop!Air.Field wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am so should everyone blacklist Rouge pilots? They seem to be taking over more and more mainline flights for little in return at AC mainline and is in part reason why Swoop has come to be. It's funny everyone screams blacklist blacklist, when those very pilots and unions are guilty of the race to the bottom and locking in (at AC family) 10 yr contracts to the detriment of their members and piloting profession in Canada.
As we know, end of the day, companies can hire whom ever they want. It would be beneficial for AC to take as many from Swoop to incur training and schedule costs at Swoop.
Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas. But yet, as tradition in Canada, we backstab eachother for the greater bad, rather than collectively working together. This hole was dug by us, and it's up to us to dig out of it, and blacklisting isn't the way. Blacklisting pilots just brings more shame and humility to all of us.
AC pilots mutally agreed to the expansion for little in return. Swoop pay scale looks comparable to Sunwing. Better starting FO than AC. I'm not saying buy coffee to Swoop pilots, again, it's a useless attempt IMO at putting a bandaid on after the flood gates have been open for years. The pilots who do go there, aren't going to care about some silly little list, nor are the HR depts. It will get us no where thinking a list is a be all solution. It's time to start raising the bar, something for all the MECs out there to game plan on, as no list will do that.mbav8r wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:25 am
Rouge was forced on AC pilots by final arbitration and they are all AC pilots on the same list, also the Rouge initial contract was a carbon copy of WJ! Not even close to the same thing a swoop!
Swoop is to WJ, what Flair was to KFC, where are they now?
So what is the answer, if not blacklisting? Should we sit them down and buy them coffee as ncp is offering, tell them about how their choices are affecting others and hope they just didn’t know that. Maybe they’ll quit when they find out and rainbows will appears and puppies will fall from the sky and the CEOs will offer to work for pilot wages plus 5% for their troubles and....
People are selfish and will do what’s best for them, maybe if their are consequences to their actions, it won’t be what’s best for them. If they can live with the consequences, they will go to swoop, simple really!
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.
Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.
I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.
Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Even before ALPA, there were WestJet pilots who fought hard to improve the wawcon for pilots yet to be on the property. On top of that, when our wawcon goes up, pilot groups who use WestJet as a comparator come negation time benefit. Your career will be better off if nobody applies to fly the same metal, for the same company, for less money.no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
I can't begrudge you for looking out for #1. I'm also disappointed that you feel that no one has ever put your interests first.Diadem wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 amThis is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.