Swoop pilot hiring.

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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

Thanks for the replies! :prayer: Great points.
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Tacoma
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Tacoma »

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

And then from our "personalized" email May 5 from GGG


When I speak with many of you, I hear the following concerns and offer my thoughts on each of these:
· The current agreement is not a legal, binding contract under the Canada Labour Code and would not hold up in a court of law
o The agreement is indeed legal and binding at law. We have always adhered to all the terms and conditions of our agreements.[/i]
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RB211
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by RB211 »

altiplano wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:10 am
RB211 wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:55 am
altiplano wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm ...
Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

...
Ultimately that is the issue you have isn't it? Other pilots should put the interest of the WJ pilots first and foremost when contemplating such an opportunity. It is not an altruistic concern for our "profession" but rather self preservation. The same self preservation that some other pilot has when looking to Swoop.
It isn't self preservation for me, RB211.
I don't work at Westjet and this won't directly affect me.

This is about other pilots being complicit in subverting the rights and standing of another pilot. Not just working for less, but fucking them while you do it. Supporting corporate interests over those of your professional colleagues while selling yourself short.
So for you it is an academic discussion. That makes it easier to decide on where the moral high ground is and position oneself there. Fair enough.

It is also fair to question and, indeed, disagree with the career decisions made by others in our profession. Right and wrong, however, is not always black and white. There are many variables that can affect ones decision; personal and professional.

I question the right of one group to permanently and comprehensively punish an individual because it disagrees with that decision. I also question this altruistic notion that the blacklist is to protect the profession in general.

The WJ pilots have tools and strategies available to them other than 'fucking' (to use your term) individuals they don't feel support their cause. I hope they use them to gain a favorable resolution.
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Realitychex
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Realitychex »

The modelled avg pay is higher than these rates.

Before continuing the discussion, most followers of this thread should spend the time to read and fully digest this document:

https://raymondjames.bluematrix.com/sel ... ource=mail



Transonic wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am
Realitychex wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:22 am Please translate those rates into what an annualized salary would look like, given full, practical flying blocks, and not including benefits and per diems.
Transonic wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:52 pm Thanks Realitychex.

Question for you. How does the posted pay rates compare to the figures you modelled?

Thanks!

For reference.

Capt
Step 1 - $103.57
Step 2 - $119.50
Step 3 - $131.468

FO
Step 1 - $55.83
Step 2 - $69.62
Step 3 - $76.58

A quick reference to ALPA data shows the average annual block hours flown per FTE pilot:
WestJet 736
Southwest 704
Spirit 552
Frontier 531
Allegiant 480.

So most likely best to compare to WS @77.5hrs/month.

Step 1 - $96 320
Step 2 - $111 135
Step 3 - $122 267

FO
Step 1 - $51 921
Step 2 - $64 746
Step 3 - $71 219
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Greenbastard
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Greenbastard »

The concept of Swoop was sold to Westjetters cause of the need “to protect the low end of market”.
It has now morphed into anywhere from 30-50 tails (removed from Mainline). Pilots at WJ need to
Wake up and accept the reality that eventually all tails will be at Swoop. Swoop is simply about control and
Greed. It’s design is to bypass the union and lower CASM , all under the false pretence of “defending the low end of the market”.
Make no mistake about it, no one is safe on the WJ one list. The good news is this will all end up with ALPA/WJ legal, CIRB and Canadian Tribunal/courts, Politicians offices and the media. Then some middle ground will be found that benefits all parties
involved.
That all sound messy, but it is now messy. Time to work this out now with the resources that are available to all parties involved.
If not this will be eventually challenged with an application for Common Employer. I can’t imagine that the Swoop pilots would not seek a union drive, and be successful at it ( as happened at both WJ and Encore).
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by neophyte »

I’m not a businessman BUT... are there not other ways to protect ones marketshare other than starting up a new airline with lower costs? How about fighting for market share using your current economics of scale? How about not letting the competition gain a foothold on the market and allow them to expand? Obviously these methods may result in a quarterly loss or two but certainly there is a cost (not including morale costs) to starting a new airline.

At the Air Canada Investors Day last fall someone asked Calin about the ULCC threat, he quickly responded by saying “that is what Rouge is for” PERIOD, end of discussion. Based on WAWCON and aircraft types operated at Rouge I can only assume that their CASM is higher than WJA. So why is the WJA brass so threatened by ULCCs?

Realitychex, can you speak to this?
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Last edited by neophyte on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by x-wind »

Hey neophyte,

Realitychex already made a post that answers your questions on page two or so.

The threat to WJA in the ULCC market, as explained by WJA executives, is:

1) percentage of foreign ownership for Canadian airlines has increased & coming competition in that market will be strong

2) Market research says there is a strong case for ULCC in Canada

3) WestJet is expanding into wide-bodies to go global (not with a ULCC) & want to have both ends of the market covered. Business travel has a lot of money in it (for wide-bodies but also domestic) & they want first class amenities. Hence the need for a different brand.

I can't think of anything else. Sure hope the attempt to divide the pilot group here fails. That said & my ideological considerations aside, it seems to me WJA plan about making another brand here is a good one.

Hey Air Canada pilots, how about you switch to ALPA now. Make ALPA Canada the ultimate force in Canada.
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Last edited by x-wind on Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Impact
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Impact »

DropTanks wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm
........

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
Going back to the illegal action taken by WJ management...
[/quote]

THIS!!! ☝🏻
....
[/quote]

Droptanks,

So let me see if I have this straight. For years, you union guys were claiming the current (and all previous) agreements were not "legal", yet now you actually claim that they are. Could it be that the WPPA/ALPA people were spreading false information all along?

For those who were duped into believing that union line of BS in the first place, I suggest you keep close tabs on what you are being told from here on in. Be skeptical.
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FICU
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by FICU »

Interesting read... thank RChx.

So sad that our government takes much more of our income before it reaches our bank accounts and then takes much more again when we want to spend our disposable income compared to the US.

Canadians don't fly across the country to visit family and friends as frequently as Americans because they can't afford to and this will always be the case.

As for Swoop hiring... I have been talking about this with F/Os recently, including some who were Captains until downgrades came along, and they see Swoop as an opportunity to get back in the left seat and although they will work their asses off they will make more than they do now and get an NG rating. Presently I see the majority of Swoop Captains coming from highly experienced 737 F/Os at other airlines and Expats with a healthy nest egg returning home directly into a left seat. F/Os will be primarily 704 Captains.

These people will make decisions based on the needs of their family and their career and not on the needs of the Westjet/Encore pilots. Hopefully that pilot group can get this sorted before the first Swoop tail pushes back and it will be operated by WJ pilots at WJ WAWCON.

Good luck with the fight boys and girls!
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x-wind
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by x-wind »

Deleted.
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Last edited by x-wind on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
DropTanks
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by DropTanks »

Impact wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:13 am
DropTanks wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm
........

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
Going back to the illegal action taken by WJ management...
THIS!!! ☝🏻
....
[/quote]

Droptanks,

So let me see if I have this straight. For years, you union guys were claiming the current (and all previous) agreements were not "legal", yet now you actually claim that they are. Could it be that the WPPA/ALPA people were spreading false information all along?

For those who were duped into believing that union line of BS in the first place, I suggest you keep close tabs on what you are being told from here on in. Be skeptical.
[/quote]

I never claimed that the agreement wasn't legal or binding in any way. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the intricacies of contract law. What I DO know thanks to common sense knowledge of labour law in this country, is that a contract negotiated by a certified union IS legally binding WITHOUT QUESTION. I'm much more comfortable with an ALPA negotiated contract than with a yellow union agreement. That being said, it seems that the law has determined that our current agreement is frozen AND binding for the time being. In fact GGG said as much time and time again so it amazes me that he's trying to contravene the very agreement he swore was legally enforceable.

As far as your "union line of BS goes"...well my BS meter has been on vacation since the WJPA email propaganda stopped rolling in. Damn thing almost exploded when one of MY so-called reps was lobbying my government AGAINST labour rights in this country!!!😡

There it goes, BS meter just blew. 😏
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano »

Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.

Upon certification it became "locked in" until a negotiated agreement replaces it.

If they scoped the flying to people on your list it plays.

I notice it's pilots on the "WPDL". I guess it comes down to who controls that list. In my experience a seniority list is jointly managed...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by FICU »

x-wind wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:32 am But is the average American better off then the average Canadian? Did you ask yourself that before saying it is so sad?

Yes, I believe the average American with good health care insurance is better off.
"Canadians don't fly across the country to visit family and friends as frequently as Americans because they can't afford to and this will always be the case." - To me this isn't common knowledge, respectfully where did you get this idea?
Americans have more disposable income and cheaper costs to travel.
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Impact
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Impact »

altiplano wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.
No they couldn't have. It was, and still is a legally binding document, following the basic elements and requirements under contract law.

Which brings up another good point. How can something, which in this case is a contract, be illegal (according to the WPPA/ALPA people) prior to being "locked in", but is now miraculously be considered "legal"?
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Impact
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Impact »

DropTanks wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am I never claimed that the agreement wasn't legal or binding in any way.
Ahhhh, but the ALPA OC did at the time.
:wink:
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by TheStig »

Realitychex wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:35 am The modelled avg pay is higher than these rates.

Before continuing the discussion, most followers of this thread should spend the time to read and fully digest this document:

https://raymondjames.bluematrix.com/sel ... ource=mail

I'll save everyone the time and let you know that the Propaganda Minister for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Westjet rates Westjet share as OUTPERFORM! Can you believe it?! Who would have guessed?

The 30% cost advantage
What a pile of garbage, on page 22, Exhibit 26, I love how he (although he references himself as 'we') compares (sourced on his own assumptions) the CASM advantage Swoop should have on a 737-800 vs a rouge A319. Forget for a moment that he has excluded the A321 and B767 while will make up 30 of the 50 aircraft in the rouge fleet, add the end of the columns he adds a Cost per sector booked at 5 cents per ASM(!) vs 2 for Flair and Swoop, does that not stick out as a pretty significant adjustment when there are only 3 cents per ASM between the two?

Now about those A321's and B767's, 200 passengers at less than 3000 kgs/hour, and 280 at 5000 kgs/hour, best not over analyze the CASM's on those types...James disregards the 767 as an overseas aircraft and yet all winter rouge flies them YYZ to MoBay, Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, Lauderdale, and Barbados. From YVR they keep busy flying to Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs, as well as Hawaii.

The CA with ACPA also gives AC the flexibility to replace the 767's and A319's with new aircraft and flex numbers between narrow bodies and wide bodies as competition requires.

2 years ago Realitychex, citing Raymond James' analysis write extensively about how WJ's 767's were going to change the market for overseas travel, that didn't happen. I find it curious that if the 'test' was so successful, why is WJ now proposing to launch it's wide body operation as a full service carrier and change the very core of WJ's business model? Its looks to me that WJ is trying to turn into AC and turn Swoop into what Westjet was.

Why, if Swoop is only 10 aircraft to protect WJ's bottom end of the market, is the CEO willing to destroy the relationship between the executives and its flight crews? If Westjet's current model is broken and vulnerable to new competition, who broke it? Why is it still profitable?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by rudder »

Impact wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 am
altiplano wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.
No they couldn't have. It was, and still is a legally binding document, following the basic elements and requirements under contract law.

Which brings up another good point. How can something, which in this case is a contract, be illegal (according to the WPPA/ALPA people) prior to being "locked in", but is now miraculously be considered "legal"?
Because the ‘statutory freeze’ applies to all work related conditions irrespective of whether those conditions were derived from an absence of agreements, individual at will agreements, or employee association agreements.

Whether you agree or not, your first BINDING certification order from the CIRB was with ALPA.
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano »

Management may have entertained you with listed working conditions, but they weren't widely enforceable contracts.

Ultimately they could have changed the conditions unilaterally prior to certification... an individual could argue large degradations in conditions or pay equated to constructive dismissal, but that's about it.

You may dispute it or not like it, but it is what it is...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Bede »

Impact wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 am
altiplano wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.
No they couldn't have. It was, and still is a legally binding document, following the basic elements and requirements under contract law.

Which brings up another good point. How can something, which in this case is a contract, be illegal (according to the WPPA/ALPA people) prior to being "locked in", but is now miraculously be considered "legal"?
No one said it was illegal. What people said was that it was not legally binding. Big difference.

The truth is that it was a contract of employment (and therefore falls under employment law, not contract law). If the company want's to change it, they could with sufficient notice. A pilot would need to quit and then sue for constructive dismissal. In the case of a union, the contract cannot be changed without consent of the union (as far as I understand).
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano »

TheStig wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:32 am I'll save everyone the time and let you know that the Propaganda Minister for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Westjet rates Westjet share as OUTPERFORM! Can you believe it?! Who would have guessed?

The 30% cost advantage
What a pile of garbage, on page 22, Exhibit 26, I love how he (although he references himself as 'we') compares (sourced on his own assumptions) the CASM advantage Swoop should have on a 737-800 vs a rouge A319. Forget for a moment that he has excluded the A321 and B767 while will make up 30 of the 50 aircraft in the rouge fleet, add the end of the columns he adds a Cost per sector booked at 5 cents per ASM(!) vs 2 for Flair and Swoop, does that not stick out as a pretty significant adjustment when there are only 3 cents per ASM between the two?

Now about those A321's and B767's, 200 passengers at less than 3000 kgs/hour, and 280 at 5000 kgs/hour, best not over analyze the CASM's on those types...James disregards the 767 as an overseas aircraft and yet all winter rouge flies them YYZ to MoBay, Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, Lauderdale, and Barbados. From YVR they keep busy flying to Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs, as well as Hawaii.

The CA with ACPA also gives AC the flexibility to replace the 767's and A319's with new aircraft and flex numbers between narrow bodies and wide bodies as competition requires.

2 years ago Realitychex, citing Raymond James' analysis write extensively about how WJ's 767's were going to change the market for overseas travel, that didn't happen. I find it curious that if the 'test' was so successful, why is WJ now proposing to launch it's wide body operation as a full service carrier and change the very core of WJ's business model? Its looks to me that WJ is trying to turn into AC and turn Swoop into what Westjet was.

Why, if Swoop is only 10 aircraft to protect WJ's bottom end of the market, is the CEO willing to destroy the relationship between the executives and its flight crews? If Westjet's current model is broken and vulnerable to new competition, who broke it? Why is it still profitable?
Absolutely.

Cherniavsky is a SHILL...

He has always posted WestJet as "BUY" and AC as "SELL". He 'downgraded' AC when it was like $5 or $7 or something...

For those that don't know: Raymond James underwrote Westjet's IPO and Air Canada kicked Cherniavsky off of the earnings calls for continuously trashing the airline...

Not much analysis there...
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