Swoop pilot hiring.

[Air.Field]

AC would still be profitable without Rouge the past couple years with the price of oil and long term contracts. CR could've taken a 2 yr holiday.

[BBQ Chips]

Not sure how comparable it is to Sunwing. All internal upgrades at Sunwing start at year 2 Captain pay which is 117$ per hour and a 1000 hour per year salary. Also 1.5 X pay over 90 hours per month and double time over 100 hours or on a gdo.
Sunwing Captain in their first year 117 x 1000 =$117000
Swoop Captain at 103 x 75 x 12 = $92700

That is a difference of $24300 on the base salary.
I have no idea of any of the benefits at swoop but there is certainly a lot of extra cash to be made above the base salary at Sunwing. Also I’m not sure what the MMG is at swoop, I just used the 75 as I saw it posted previously.
Cheers

[Diadem]

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.

This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.

[Go Guns]

no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.

Even before ALPA, there were WestJet pilots who fought hard to improve the wawcon for pilots yet to be on the property. On top of that, when our wawcon goes up, pilot groups who use WestJet as a comparator come negation time benefit. Your career will be better off if nobody applies to fly the same metal, for the same company, for less money.

“No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.....

[Bede]

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.

This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.

I can't begrudge you for looking out for #1. I'm also disappointed that you feel that no one has ever put your interests first.

Part of the reason that I feel so strongly about doing this flying at the current rates is for the people coming behind me. I'd like to think that I'm looking out for them as opposed to padding my ESP and options with cheap labour. I was a big proponent of Encore and I always felt that it was a good job to take for a low time guy. The pay sucks now, but soon the Encore guy gets the opportunity to have my job. Now that a significant number of pilots have put their faith into WJ and decided to join Encore, the goal posts have shifted and that light at the end of the tunnel has got a bit dimmer. The coveted job of WJ pilot now has another hurdle put before it- Swoop.

No doubt the apologists will argue that Swoop is a better job than Encore so therefore it's progress. True- however, that flying should be done at current 737 rates. Our wages won't make or break this operation. The progression is DH8-B737, not DH8-B737 (discounted pay)-B737 (regular pay).

[altiplano]

Our wages won't make or break this operation.

Bingo.

Do they pay the Dispatchers less? AMEs? Agents? Pushback crews? IT guys? EXECUTIVES?

F- NO!

So why are Pilots taking it?

[Diadem]

Even before ALPA, there were WestJet pilots who fought hard to improve the wawcon for pilots yet to be on the property. On top of that, when our wawcon goes up, pilot groups who use WestJet as a comparator come negation time benefit. Your career will be better off if nobody applies to fly the same metal, for the same company, for less money.

“No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.....

But that was still for pilots who joined WestJet and became part of their team; outsiders get nothing. I would be extremely happy to join WestJet and get those improved WAWCONs, but until that happens WestJet pilots have never done anything for me, and I don't feel any loyalty towards them. I'm not going to screw myself over to protect their interests. I've got applications in with a bunch of airlines, and Swoop definitely isn't my #1 choice, but if no one else calls me then it would be stupid to pass it up. It doesn't matter if other 737 operators compare their wages to WestJet's if I don't fly a 737. If I pass on Swoop, and no one else offers me a job, twenty years down the line I'll still be flying a turboprop getting raises that are, effectively, only cost of living increases. Until WestJet pilots start calling my boss and pressuring him to give me a raise because of the pilot shortage, I don't see why I should take a principled stand on your behalf.
If Swoop's wages are too low, what is the lowest they should be, objectively? By what metric do we set a floor on how much a 737 pilot should make? Should I not accept a job that pays any less than Air Canada?

[Go Guns]

I'm not a huge union dude, but here is an example of WestJet pilots trying to improve your job..

https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... AKCN0Z82A6

Even if you're only after your own interests, again, those interests are better served if nobody accepts to fly the same airplane, for the same company, for less money. Those improved wawcon will get further and further away if the message you send the executives of Canada's airlines is that somebody is always willing to do the job for less.

[Bede]

Diadem,

Why do you feel the need to work for an airline? I like my job, but I have often considered going back and flying 703. Why? because as my children get older, I am noticing more and more how important it is to be home for supper with the family.

Also, you're saying that at Swoop you'd be making more than what you are now. I have a feeling that you're not working for the right outfit. I know in that in Thunder Bay alone, Thunder, Bravo, Ornge, and Northstar all pay more than 1st year Swoop. I'm not sure about Bearskin & Wasaya. There's a lot of great jobs out there these days: Swoop just isn't one of them.

[Bede]

If Swoop's wages are too low, what is the lowest they should be, objectively? By what metric do we set a floor on how much a 737 pilot should make? Should I not accept a job that pays any less than Air Canada?

I think you're missing the point. If FlySuperJet Airlines wants to pay crap money, that's one thing- the market can decide. It's quite another thing for a company with a 737 operation to make an end run around it's own employees and want to pay less (actually as we're finding out- only pilots and FA's- everyone else is on WJ rates). This company cannot be built on the backs of the pilots.

So to answer your question, what is the lowest that Swoop should pay, the answer is the WestJet B737 WAWCON.

[Diadem]

Diadem,

Why do you feel the need to work for an airline? I like my job, but I have often considered going back and flying 703. Why? because as my children get older, I am noticing more and more how important it is to be home for supper with the family.

Also, you're saying that at Swoop you'd be making more than what you are now. I have a feeling that you're not working for the right outfit. I know in that in Thunder Bay alone, Thunder, Bravo, Ornge, and Northstar all pay more than 1st year Swoop. I'm not sure about Bearskin & Wasaya. There's a lot of great jobs out there these days: Swoop just isn't one of them.

Airlines are where the most money is. I work for one of the higher-paying 704 companies in the country, but I'll never make anywhere near the amount as on a 705 jet. I have no passes, I'm away from home about as much as I would be with an airline, and I don't have nearly as much support as I would in a 705 company. I make more than Swoop's level 1 rate for FO, but I'll top out at about 70% of Swoop's level 1 captain rate. In the long run, it doesn't make sense for me not to keep doing this job when airlines are hiring, even if the best I can do is Swoop.

[atphat]

Word on the street is ALPA has teeth. Going to get ugly. No one wins. Sure hope WJ management are happy.

[flyinhigh]

I make more than Swoop's level 1 rate for FO, but I'll top out at about 70% of Swoop's level 1 captain rate. In the long run, it doesn't make sense for me not to keep doing this job when airlines are hiring, even if the best I can do is Swoop.

So your saying you will make around 65k for one of the best paying 704 gigs in the country.

I got news for you. That is no where near best paying gigs, infact that would be quite low. You make way more than that (about 15-20k more) as a year 1 Encore captain. Oh, I can list numerous 704 gigs that top out well above 80k.

[flyinhigh]

Double post

[nohojob]

You can work for a 705 and be at home for supper every night (ok maybe 1 or 2 overnight per month max)

[WJ200]

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.

This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.

I'll think about you when I talk about Swoop with my 7 year FO the next time I work and talk about how his upgrade is no longer on the horizon due to this decision. I'll think about you when Swoop starts flying and realize that there are still pilots who are willing to advance their own careers to the detriment of others. I'm very sad for all WJ'ers today. This isn't the company I've embraced and fought for for most of my career.

[moe]

+1

[Red1]

It's all so very disappointing, it didn't have to be this way. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail and WestJet pilot will operate WestJet aircraft. Once it goes off the street the genie is out of the bottle, and it will be very hard to put it back in.

[jazzyboy]

I don't post a lot on here, but today this topic hits a lot closer to home for me. I am that 7 year FO at WJ who is eagerly waiting for his upgrade. I can only say that I can echo the words of WJ200....This is a very sad day for us WestJetters, and the whole airline industry in Canada. I am shocked at the direction that WJ management has chosen to go with the implementation of Swoop. Talk about a major hit against your pilots and flight attendants in order to save a few hundred dollars per hour. These are the only 2 employee groups taking the hit....every other group will be "contracted" by WestJet. What a joke.....Lets be honest here, a couple hundred dollars per hour saved by WestJet on the crews is not going to make or break this operation. The pay rates at Swoop are a drop in the bucket when you look at the operating costs per hour on the 737-800 per hour. What is wrong with WestJet WAWCON for Swoop? This is a direct hit towards these 2 groups at WestJet. Is it for certifying? Who knows. But today I am ashamed to be a WestJetter. And I and truly scared for my career at WestJet. One of the reasons that I came to WestJet was because of how the employees were valued and this company was built on trust with them. Heck, it's one of our supposed "values". Not anymore, it has been replaced with corporate greed. There is nothing in place at this moment to stop GS and CB from turning all of WestJet into Swoop. At least the almighty investor will hopefully be impressed. This is going to turn into a nasty battle with ALPA, and it doesn't have to be. There is a reason GS issued the statement that there will be no contract with the pilots in 2018 at WestJet. What an interesting statement when you are supposedly bargaining in good faith?!?
At first I held on to the belief that we as a pilot group can stick together and not allow this to happen. Reading this forum, I see that that will not happen. Everyone will have reasons for "progressing" their careers and accepting what Swoop is offering, and I will never judge a fellow pilot for making the choice that they do for the benefit of them and their family. But I do need to say this though....What is wrong with us here in Canada? There is actually a pilot shortage taking place and here we are at WestJet purposing to massively lower the bar for our profession. GS you cannot compare Swoop to the startup of WestJet, it is very different. This is truly a sad day for being a professional airline pilot in Canada.

[Mostly Harmless]

I agree with your sentiment. It is a sad day.