Swoop pilot hiring.

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infiniteregulus
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#126 Post by infiniteregulus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:46 am

I don't think statements that this doesn't affect anyone not at WestJet apply, as it WILL affect EVERYONE. This isn't about "putting the WestJet pilots first" or "self preservation". This amounts to professional preservation. In contract negotiations, other companies' pay scales and working conditions serve as benchmarks and bargaining bars. If you have a company like Swoop operating 737s at a given low cost, that opens up negotiations at a completely different company where they'll contrast Swoops operation to theirs and lowball their offers. This affects everyone from AC, WJ, Transat, Flair, Sunwing, and down to Jazz, Sky, GGN, private operators, etc... As someone mentioned about Jazz, there's no way Jazz will allow their Captains to make more than a 737 Captain at Swoop would they? Not in the longterm. Next negotiation will lowball in comparison. It's an all encompassing effect, so yes, it affects everyone and everyone's livelihoods, current and future, WestJet or not, by eroding the standards to which we value our professional worth.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#127 Post by privateer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:50 am

This is why the term scab is being thrown around. From Section 10 of WestJet's 2015 Pilot Agreement.

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
Going back to the illegal action taken by WJ management...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#128 Post by Donald » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:11 am

infiniteregulus wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:46 am
I don't think statements that this doesn't affect anyone not at WestJet apply, as it WILL affect EVERYONE. This isn't about "putting the WestJet pilots first" or "self preservation". This amounts to professional preservation. In contract negotiations, other companies' pay scales and working conditions serve as benchmarks and bargaining bars. If you have a company like Swoop operating 737s at a given low cost, that opens up negotiations at a completely different company where they'll contrast Swoops operation to theirs and lowball their offers. This affects everyone from AC, WJ, Transat, Flair, Sunwing, and down to Jazz, Sky, GGN, private operators, etc... As someone mentioned about Jazz, there's no way Jazz will allow their Captains to make more than a 737 Captain at Swoop would they? Not in the longterm. Next negotiation will lowball in comparison. It's an all encompassing effect, so yes, it affects everyone and everyone's livelihoods, current and future, WestJet or not, by eroding the standards to which we value our professional worth.
Is this your first day in aviation?

Why do you think everyone else was disgusted by Encore?

Disgusted by Flair?

Disgusted by Enerjet?

This is not new. It's just new that WJ pilots are feeling threatened by their management.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#129 Post by Noo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:27 am

Transonic wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am
So most likely best to compare to WS @77.5hrs/month.
Step 1 - $96 320
Step 2 - $111 135
Step 3 - $122 267
$96320 CAD or $77514 US Dollar for a 737 Captain. Would it be safe to say Canada has the lowest airline pilot salaries in the first world? Is there anywhere paying 737 Captains $77k USD outside of perhaps Africa?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#130 Post by rudder » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:59 am

Noo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:27 am
Transonic wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am
So most likely best to compare to WS @77.5hrs/month.
Step 1 - $96 320
Step 2 - $111 135
Step 3 - $122 267
$96320 CAD or $77514 US Dollar for a 737 Captain. Would it be safe to say Canada has the lowest airline pilot salaries in the first world? Is there anywhere paying 737 Captains $77k USD outside of perhaps Africa?
I have an up-to-date chart of the CA/FO pay rates for all of the US carriers operating NB fleets. If I posted it, you would puke. Including retirement contributions made by the employer an Alaska 737/320 12th year CA is paid US$300/hr. The big 3 are 6-7% above that.

Even WJ/AC are 25%+ below the average compensation level of the top 8. Factoring in exchange it is approaching 50%. Carriers like FLAIR/SWOOP etc are paying CA rates lower than the US FO rates on the same equipment not including exchange.

Yes, Canada is clearly an outlier when it comes to pilot pay with signs of a deteriorating trend.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#131 Post by infiniteregulus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 pm

Donald wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:11 am
infiniteregulus wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:46 am
I don't think statements that this doesn't affect anyone not at WestJet apply, as it WILL affect EVERYONE. This isn't about "putting the WestJet pilots first" or "self preservation". This amounts to professional preservation. In contract negotiations, other companies' pay scales and working conditions serve as benchmarks and bargaining bars. If you have a company like Swoop operating 737s at a given low cost, that opens up negotiations at a completely different company where they'll contrast Swoops operation to theirs and lowball their offers. This affects everyone from AC, WJ, Transat, Flair, Sunwing, and down to Jazz, Sky, GGN, private operators, etc... As someone mentioned about Jazz, there's no way Jazz will allow their Captains to make more than a 737 Captain at Swoop would they? Not in the longterm. Next negotiation will lowball in comparison. It's an all encompassing effect, so yes, it affects everyone and everyone's livelihoods, current and future, WestJet or not, by eroding the standards to which we value our professional worth.
Is this your first day in aviation?

Why do you think everyone else was disgusted by Encore?

Disgusted by Flair?

Disgusted by Enerjet?

This is not new. It's just new that WJ pilots are feeling threatened by their management.
Obviously it's not my first day, but it seems to be for a lot of people thinking this doesn't affect them too...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#132 Post by Victory » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:13 pm

Noo wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:27 am
Transonic wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am
So most likely best to compare to WS @77.5hrs/month.
Step 1 - $96 320
Step 2 - $111 135
Step 3 - $122 267
$96320 CAD or $77514 US Dollar for a 737 Captain. Would it be safe to say Canada has the lowest airline pilot salaries in the first world? Is there anywhere paying 737 Captains $77k USD outside of perhaps Africa?
737 Capts in Africa make significantly more than $77k USD. Perhaps double that.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#133 Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:25 pm

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:52 pm
Am I the only one who sees the backward logic some people have here? A Swoop captain, flying a 737, makes less than an A scale captain at Jazz on an RJ/Q4/Classic. (Status pay means type is irrelevant.)

The Swoop guy seems to have this “but I fly a 737!” Mentality, which to me, seems backwards. You fly a bigger plane, do more work, are responsible for more people, and have much worse working conditions, for LESS money.

How is this a win exactly? Does shiny jet syndrome really still exist?
It does when your hauling pop and chips and are based in Pickle Lake.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#134 Post by North Shore » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:49 pm

Hey! I liked my two summers in YPL. If i had to relive my career, I'd go back there in a heartbeat.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#135 Post by fish4life » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:10 pm

I’m sure anyone meeting most of the swoop requirements as a captain can go left seat at Encore which by the time you factor in the ESP and profit share is probably the same as year one swoop cpt.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#136 Post by DropTanks » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm

privateer wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:50 am
This is why the term scab is being thrown around. From Section 10 of WestJet's 2015 Pilot Agreement.

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
Going back to the illegal action taken by WJ management...
THIS!!! ☝🏻

Now I know why our MEC Chair was so upbeat when I discussed my concerns around this Swoop business.

I think what we have here folks is the old "bait n switch". The company makes us worry about something that we really shouldn't be worrying about. We pass those concerns/worry to our negots committees who then fight hard to make damn sure we don't lose the flying we shouldn't lose to begin with Then we may feel victorious if we sign a deal which locks in Swoop flying on one side and gives only marginal increases on the other. It's subconscious human behaviour. I wonder if negotiators have employed human nature/behavioral experts?
Fascinating!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#137 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:52 pm

What if every pilot they hire goes to the bottom of the WPDL?...we already hire out of sequence in that we hire WestJet pilots and place them on the list below Encore pilots. Encore is a separate company with a separate OC and so will Swoop be.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#138 Post by DropTanks » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:23 pm

Westjet doesn't control the seniority list. We do. Basically the Swoop flying would have to be available to anybody on list in order of seniority and if any spots are left then they could put new hires in there. This is all just semantics right now though. What it all really means is that flying done under the parent company of WJ is subject to negotiation by WJ ALPA pilots. That's the whole point of certification. Real legal ramifications. No airline in Canada (to my knowledge) has tried such an end-run around a legally certified labour group before. Even KFC-Flair don't even come close. This is flying pax on WJ owned aircraft, dispatched, maintained and managed by WJ at the top. This was all a ploy to get us thinking about something else we need to "lock down".
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#139 Post by Transonic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:54 pm

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:52 pm
What if every pilot they hire goes to the bottom of the WPDL?...we already hire out of sequence in that we hire WestJet pilots and place them on the list below Encore pilots. Encore is a separate company with a separate OC and so will Swoop be.
Section 3.1.2

"For pilots hired after May 12, 2014, the individual's position on the WPDL will be the date of hire (DOH) on which he started or starts as a pilot for WestJet or WestJet Encore."

Only WestJet and WestJet Encore pilots can hold a position on the WPDL.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#140 Post by neophyte » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:09 pm

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."


I would like to thank the now defunct WJPA for this agreement verbage :D
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#141 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:42 pm

Thanks for the replies! :prayer: Great points.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#142 Post by Tacoma » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:35 pm

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

And then from our "personalized" email May 5 from GGG


When I speak with many of you, I hear the following concerns and offer my thoughts on each of these:
· The current agreement is not a legal, binding contract under the Canada Labour Code and would not hold up in a court of law
o The agreement is indeed legal and binding at law. We have always adhered to all the terms and conditions of our agreements.[/i]
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#143 Post by RB211 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:07 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:10 am
RB211 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:55 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm
...
Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

...
Ultimately that is the issue you have isn't it? Other pilots should put the interest of the WJ pilots first and foremost when contemplating such an opportunity. It is not an altruistic concern for our "profession" but rather self preservation. The same self preservation that some other pilot has when looking to Swoop.
It isn't self preservation for me, RB211.
I don't work at Westjet and this won't directly affect me.

This is about other pilots being complicit in subverting the rights and standing of another pilot. Not just working for less, but fucking them while you do it. Supporting corporate interests over those of your professional colleagues while selling yourself short.
So for you it is an academic discussion. That makes it easier to decide on where the moral high ground is and position oneself there. Fair enough.

It is also fair to question and, indeed, disagree with the career decisions made by others in our profession. Right and wrong, however, is not always black and white. There are many variables that can affect ones decision; personal and professional.

I question the right of one group to permanently and comprehensively punish an individual because it disagrees with that decision. I also question this altruistic notion that the blacklist is to protect the profession in general.

The WJ pilots have tools and strategies available to them other than 'fucking' (to use your term) individuals they don't feel support their cause. I hope they use them to gain a favorable resolution.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#144 Post by Realitychex » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:35 am

The modelled avg pay is higher than these rates.

Before continuing the discussion, most followers of this thread should spend the time to read and fully digest this document:

https://raymondjames.bluematrix.com/sel ... ource=mail



Transonic wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am
Realitychex wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:22 am
Please translate those rates into what an annualized salary would look like, given full, practical flying blocks, and not including benefits and per diems.
Transonic wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:52 pm
Thanks Realitychex.

Question for you. How does the posted pay rates compare to the figures you modelled?

Thanks!

For reference.

Capt
Step 1 - $103.57
Step 2 - $119.50
Step 3 - $131.468

FO
Step 1 - $55.83
Step 2 - $69.62
Step 3 - $76.58

A quick reference to ALPA data shows the average annual block hours flown per FTE pilot:
WestJet 736
Southwest 704
Spirit 552
Frontier 531
Allegiant 480.

So most likely best to compare to WS @77.5hrs/month.

Step 1 - $96 320
Step 2 - $111 135
Step 3 - $122 267

FO
Step 1 - $51 921
Step 2 - $64 746
Step 3 - $71 219
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#145 Post by Greenbastard » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:45 am

The concept of Swoop was sold to Westjetters cause of the need “to protect the low end of market”.
It has now morphed into anywhere from 30-50 tails (removed from Mainline). Pilots at WJ need to
Wake up and accept the reality that eventually all tails will be at Swoop. Swoop is simply about control and
Greed. It’s design is to bypass the union and lower CASM , all under the false pretence of “defending the low end of the market”.
Make no mistake about it, no one is safe on the WJ one list. The good news is this will all end up with ALPA/WJ legal, CIRB and Canadian Tribunal/courts, Politicians offices and the media. Then some middle ground will be found that benefits all parties
involved.
That all sound messy, but it is now messy. Time to work this out now with the resources that are available to all parties involved.
If not this will be eventually challenged with an application for Common Employer. I can’t imagine that the Swoop pilots would not seek a union drive, and be successful at it ( as happened at both WJ and Encore).
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#146 Post by neophyte » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:24 am

I’m not a businessman BUT... are there not other ways to protect ones marketshare other than starting up a new airline with lower costs? How about fighting for market share using your current economics of scale? How about not letting the competition gain a foothold on the market and allow them to expand? Obviously these methods may result in a quarterly loss or two but certainly there is a cost (not including morale costs) to starting a new airline.

At the Air Canada Investors Day last fall someone asked Calin about the ULCC threat, he quickly responded by saying “that is what Rouge is for” PERIOD, end of discussion. Based on WAWCON and aircraft types operated at Rouge I can only assume that their CASM is higher than WJA. So why is the WJA brass so threatened by ULCCs?

Realitychex, can you speak to this?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#147 Post by x-wind » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:08 am

Hey neophyte,

Realitychex already made a post that answers your questions on page two or so.

The threat to WJA in the ULCC market, as explained by WJA executives, is:

1) percentage of foreign ownership for Canadian airlines has increased & coming competition in that market will be strong

2) Market research says there is a strong case for ULCC in Canada

3) WestJet is expanding into wide-bodies to go global (not with a ULCC) & want to have both ends of the market covered. Business travel has a lot of money in it (for wide-bodies but also domestic) & they want first class amenities. Hence the need for a different brand.

I can't think of anything else. Sure hope the attempt to divide the pilot group here fails. That said & my ideological considerations aside, it seems to me WJA plan about making another brand here is a good one.

Hey Air Canada pilots, how about you switch to ALPA now. Make ALPA Canada the ultimate force in Canada.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#148 Post by Impact » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:13 am

DropTanks wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm

........

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
Going back to the illegal action taken by WJ management...
[/quote]

THIS!!! ☝🏻
....
[/quote]

Droptanks,

So let me see if I have this straight. For years, you union guys were claiming the current (and all previous) agreements were not "legal", yet now you actually claim that they are. Could it be that the WPPA/ALPA people were spreading false information all along?

For those who were duped into believing that union line of BS in the first place, I suggest you keep close tabs on what you are being told from here on in. Be skeptical.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#149 Post by FICU » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:19 am

Interesting read... thank RChx.

So sad that our government takes much more of our income before it reaches our bank accounts and then takes much more again when we want to spend our disposable income compared to the US.

Canadians don't fly across the country to visit family and friends as frequently as Americans because they can't afford to and this will always be the case.

As for Swoop hiring... I have been talking about this with F/Os recently, including some who were Captains until downgrades came along, and they see Swoop as an opportunity to get back in the left seat and although they will work their asses off they will make more than they do now and get an NG rating. Presently I see the majority of Swoop Captains coming from highly experienced 737 F/Os at other airlines and Expats with a healthy nest egg returning home directly into a left seat. F/Os will be primarily 704 Captains.

These people will make decisions based on the needs of their family and their career and not on the needs of the Westjet/Encore pilots. Hopefully that pilot group can get this sorted before the first Swoop tail pushes back and it will be operated by WJ pilots at WJ WAWCON.

Good luck with the fight boys and girls!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

#150 Post by x-wind » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:32 am

Deleted.
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