Swoop pilot hiring.

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DropTanks
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by DropTanks » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am

Impact wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:13 am
DropTanks wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm

........

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
Going back to the illegal action taken by WJ management...
THIS!!! ☝🏻
....
[/quote]

Droptanks,

So let me see if I have this straight. For years, you union guys were claiming the current (and all previous) agreements were not "legal", yet now you actually claim that they are. Could it be that the WPPA/ALPA people were spreading false information all along?

For those who were duped into believing that union line of BS in the first place, I suggest you keep close tabs on what you are being told from here on in. Be skeptical.
[/quote]

I never claimed that the agreement wasn't legal or binding in any way. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the intricacies of contract law. What I DO know thanks to common sense knowledge of labour law in this country, is that a contract negotiated by a certified union IS legally binding WITHOUT QUESTION. I'm much more comfortable with an ALPA negotiated contract than with a yellow union agreement. That being said, it seems that the law has determined that our current agreement is frozen AND binding for the time being. In fact GGG said as much time and time again so it amazes me that he's trying to contravene the very agreement he swore was legally enforceable.

As far as your "union line of BS goes"...well my BS meter has been on vacation since the WJPA email propaganda stopped rolling in. Damn thing almost exploded when one of MY so-called reps was lobbying my government AGAINST labour rights in this country!!!😡

There it goes, BS meter just blew. 😏
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am

Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.

Upon certification it became "locked in" until a negotiated agreement replaces it.

If they scoped the flying to people on your list it plays.

I notice it's pilots on the "WPDL". I guess it comes down to who controls that list. In my experience a seniority list is jointly managed...
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FICU
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by FICU » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:44 am

x-wind wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:32 am
But is the average American better off then the average Canadian? Did you ask yourself that before saying it is so sad?

Yes, I believe the average American with good health care insurance is better off.
"Canadians don't fly across the country to visit family and friends as frequently as Americans because they can't afford to and this will always be the case." - To me this isn't common knowledge, respectfully where did you get this idea?
Americans have more disposable income and cheaper costs to travel.
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Impact
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Impact » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am
Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.
No they couldn't have. It was, and still is a legally binding document, following the basic elements and requirements under contract law.

Which brings up another good point. How can something, which in this case is a contract, be illegal (according to the WPPA/ALPA people) prior to being "locked in", but is now miraculously be considered "legal"?
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Impact
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Impact » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:00 am

DropTanks wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am
I never claimed that the agreement wasn't legal or binding in any way.
Ahhhh, but the ALPA OC did at the time.
:wink:
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TheStig
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by TheStig » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:32 am

Realitychex wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:35 am
The modelled avg pay is higher than these rates.

Before continuing the discussion, most followers of this thread should spend the time to read and fully digest this document:

https://raymondjames.bluematrix.com/sel ... ource=mail

I'll save everyone the time and let you know that the Propaganda Minister for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Westjet rates Westjet share as OUTPERFORM! Can you believe it?! Who would have guessed?

The 30% cost advantage
What a pile of garbage, on page 22, Exhibit 26, I love how he (although he references himself as 'we') compares (sourced on his own assumptions) the CASM advantage Swoop should have on a 737-800 vs a rouge A319. Forget for a moment that he has excluded the A321 and B767 while will make up 30 of the 50 aircraft in the rouge fleet, add the end of the columns he adds a Cost per sector booked at 5 cents per ASM(!) vs 2 for Flair and Swoop, does that not stick out as a pretty significant adjustment when there are only 3 cents per ASM between the two?

Now about those A321's and B767's, 200 passengers at less than 3000 kgs/hour, and 280 at 5000 kgs/hour, best not over analyze the CASM's on those types...James disregards the 767 as an overseas aircraft and yet all winter rouge flies them YYZ to MoBay, Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, Lauderdale, and Barbados. From YVR they keep busy flying to Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs, as well as Hawaii.

The CA with ACPA also gives AC the flexibility to replace the 767's and A319's with new aircraft and flex numbers between narrow bodies and wide bodies as competition requires.

2 years ago Realitychex, citing Raymond James' analysis write extensively about how WJ's 767's were going to change the market for overseas travel, that didn't happen. I find it curious that if the 'test' was so successful, why is WJ now proposing to launch it's wide body operation as a full service carrier and change the very core of WJ's business model? Its looks to me that WJ is trying to turn into AC and turn Swoop into what Westjet was.

Why, if Swoop is only 10 aircraft to protect WJ's bottom end of the market, is the CEO willing to destroy the relationship between the executives and its flight crews? If Westjet's current model is broken and vulnerable to new competition, who broke it? Why is it still profitable?
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rudder
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by rudder » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:38 am

Impact wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 am
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am
Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.
No they couldn't have. It was, and still is a legally binding document, following the basic elements and requirements under contract law.

Which brings up another good point. How can something, which in this case is a contract, be illegal (according to the WPPA/ALPA people) prior to being "locked in", but is now miraculously be considered "legal"?
Because the ‘statutory freeze’ applies to all work related conditions irrespective of whether those conditions were derived from an absence of agreements, individual at will agreements, or employee association agreements.

Whether you agree or not, your first BINDING certification order from the CIRB was with ALPA.
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 am

Management may have entertained you with listed working conditions, but they weren't widely enforceable contracts.

Ultimately they could have changed the conditions unilaterally prior to certification... an individual could argue large degradations in conditions or pay equated to constructive dismissal, but that's about it.

You may dispute it or not like it, but it is what it is...
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Bede
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Bede » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:49 am

Impact wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:57 am
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:23 am
Your previous contract and working conditions could be unilaterally changed by management prior to certification.
No they couldn't have. It was, and still is a legally binding document, following the basic elements and requirements under contract law.

Which brings up another good point. How can something, which in this case is a contract, be illegal (according to the WPPA/ALPA people) prior to being "locked in", but is now miraculously be considered "legal"?
No one said it was illegal. What people said was that it was not legally binding. Big difference.

The truth is that it was a contract of employment (and therefore falls under employment law, not contract law). If the company want's to change it, they could with sufficient notice. A pilot would need to quit and then sue for constructive dismissal. In the case of a union, the contract cannot be changed without consent of the union (as far as I understand).
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:56 am

TheStig wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:32 am
I'll save everyone the time and let you know that the Propaganda Minister for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Westjet rates Westjet share as OUTPERFORM! Can you believe it?! Who would have guessed?

The 30% cost advantage
What a pile of garbage, on page 22, Exhibit 26, I love how he (although he references himself as 'we') compares (sourced on his own assumptions) the CASM advantage Swoop should have on a 737-800 vs a rouge A319. Forget for a moment that he has excluded the A321 and B767 while will make up 30 of the 50 aircraft in the rouge fleet, add the end of the columns he adds a Cost per sector booked at 5 cents per ASM(!) vs 2 for Flair and Swoop, does that not stick out as a pretty significant adjustment when there are only 3 cents per ASM between the two?

Now about those A321's and B767's, 200 passengers at less than 3000 kgs/hour, and 280 at 5000 kgs/hour, best not over analyze the CASM's on those types...James disregards the 767 as an overseas aircraft and yet all winter rouge flies them YYZ to MoBay, Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, Lauderdale, and Barbados. From YVR they keep busy flying to Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs, as well as Hawaii.

The CA with ACPA also gives AC the flexibility to replace the 767's and A319's with new aircraft and flex numbers between narrow bodies and wide bodies as competition requires.

2 years ago Realitychex, citing Raymond James' analysis write extensively about how WJ's 767's were going to change the market for overseas travel, that didn't happen. I find it curious that if the 'test' was so successful, why is WJ now proposing to launch it's wide body operation as a full service carrier and change the very core of WJ's business model? Its looks to me that WJ is trying to turn into AC and turn Swoop into what Westjet was.

Why, if Swoop is only 10 aircraft to protect WJ's bottom end of the market, is the CEO willing to destroy the relationship between the executives and its flight crews? If Westjet's current model is broken and vulnerable to new competition, who broke it? Why is it still profitable?
Absolutely.

Cherniavsky is a SHILL...

He has always posted WestJet as "BUY" and AC as "SELL". He 'downgraded' AC when it was like $5 or $7 or something...

For those that don't know: Raymond James underwrote Westjet's IPO and Air Canada kicked Cherniavsky off of the earnings calls for continuously trashing the airline...

Not much analysis there...
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mostly Harmless » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:40 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am
In fact GGG said as much...
Gennady Gennadyevich Golovkin? The boxer?
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Tacoma
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Tacoma » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:51 pm

GGG. Triple G. 3G The Tan Man = GreGG CEO
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Last edited by Tacoma on Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mostly Harmless
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mostly Harmless » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:54 pm

Ah... I was not putting that together. Thank you.

I think of him as GS (which rhymes with BS), not GGG. Thought there might be another player in the game I was missing.
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rudder
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by rudder » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:57 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 am
Management may have entertained you with listed working conditions, but they weren't widely enforceable contracts.

Ultimately they could have changed the conditions unilaterally prior to certification... an individual could argue large degradations in conditions or pay equated to constructive dismissal, but that's about it.

You may dispute it or not like it, but it is what it is...
http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/323940/e ... egislation
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Thanks Rudder... That lays it out fairly well...

All jurisdictions in Canada, including federal, and it's already been through the Supreme Court...
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Transonic
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Transonic » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm

Realitychex wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:35 am
The modelled avg pay is higher than these rates.

Before continuing the discussion, most followers of this thread should spend the time to read and fully digest this document:

https://raymondjames.bluematrix.com/sel ... ource=mail
Thank you for sharing. No doubt a very neat project to work on.

A few questions if you don't mind. WestJet publishes salaries and benefits to be ~22% of operating expenses. This model places it around 16.6% for Swoop. We know Swoop will have a lower FTE ratio due to simplicity but how much of this difference is attributed to reduced salaries in the model?

We've been told to look towards Qantas/Jetstar as an example. Wikipedia states Qantas has 68 737s and Jetstar 61 A320/A321s. Elsewhere, Lufthansa operates 170 A319/320/321s while Eurowings operates 73. At the end of 2019, WestJet should operate 118-130 737s and Swoop 10 737s.

What is wrong with the fear that Swoop grows significantly larger, cannibalizing all P2P routes, reducing mainline WestJet to servicing only those flights that touch YYZ,YYC and YVR? Is this fear legitimate in your mind?

Thanks again. The speculation on route maps and schedule are especially of interest given the void of information out there.

From the above link on page 17.

"...but we think it is wise for them to avoid the "connectivity trap" outlined above and the allusion that direct operating costs of the crew are all that determine a low cost operation."

:prayer:
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Mrbobmarly111
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mrbobmarly111 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:02 pm

I plan on applying at Swoop.

So you think itll help if I offer to pay for my own training ? I was also considering to dye my hair hot pink.

But seriously..... do you think itll help?

:prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:

All Hail the Great god Of SWOOP

MR. Greg

:prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:
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Mach1
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mach1 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:27 am

I think that dying your hair will put you over the top for sure.

Just in case it doesn't:
Your favourite insulation is Fiberglass Pink
Your favourite cartoon character is The Pink Panther
Your favourite singer is Pink
Your favourite movie is Pretty in Pink and
As far as pay goes you'll take it right in the... palm of your hand which will be painted pink.
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I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

Mrbobmarly111
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mrbobmarly111 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:06 am

Thanks for all the great tips. :D

Just a FYI for anyone else thinking of applying rumor on the street is theres a guarenteed flow to mainline if you go there. Also you get a great 1 for 1 Employee share purchase program with westjet. The pay is on par if not better than mainline, and youll be everyones hero.

Ps: this comment was written on Jan 18th 2018. The offical backwards day of North America.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

HAPPY SDRAWKCAB DAY!!!!
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mbav8r
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by mbav8r » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:51 pm

Not sure if this was mentioned but I haven’t seen it here, so here it is, hypocrisy at its best.

WESTJET MANAGEMENT FILES UNFAIR LABOUR PRACTICE COMPLAINT AGAINST ALPA
Last April, on the exact day that ALPA filed cards with the Canada Industrial Relations Board to represent the WestJet pilots, the airline announced that it was creating Swoop, an ultra-low-cost carrier.
Late Friday afternoon, WestJet management filed an Unfair Labour Practice complaint against ALPA, claiming that the WestJet MEC has engaged in bad-faith bargaining by asking the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations to advise member associations about the labor situation and potential for WestJet management to outsource their flying to Swoop.
This situation could have dire ramifications on pilots’ careers. The WestJet MEC encourages all ALPA members who run into any of our WestJet brothers and sisters to please let them know that you support them and appreciate their fighting to uphold our profession.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Oh the hypocrisy on this site never ends.

Everyone gets their panties in a bunch talking about the regional WAWCON decrease in the last few years and slamming people for taking jobs at Jazz (a company that has been around for a damn long time, and treats it's employees with respect) yet we have people asking about the wages to go be a scab at Swoop... I mean WestJet. Cause let's be honest. It's Westjet.

AvCanada at it's finest.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by HansDietrich » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:09 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:28 pm
Oh the hypocrisy on this site never ends.

Everyone gets their panties in a bunch talking about the regional WAWCON decrease in the last few years and slamming people for taking jobs at Jazz (a company that has been around for a damn long time, and treats it's employees with respect) yet we have people asking about the wages to go be a scab at Swoop... I mean WestJet. Cause let's be honest. It's Westjet.

AvCanada at it's finest.
To be fair, Jazz was founded in 2001 and Westjet in 1996, which makes WS older than Jazz. True, there was Air Ontario, Air Nova, Air BC, etc. but those were different companies; very different than what Jazz is today. It's simple though. Some people would rather fly a 737NG for 40K than a Dash 8. Is it right? Hell no! Would I do it? Nope. But it does open doors with a 737NG rating on your Aviation Document. It's no different than someone choosing to go to Jazz and flying a CRJ for 40K than sticking it out on a left seat B200 gig that pays $70K a year. There is that possibility of growth.

Everyone weighs their apples and oranges differently. What may be important to you, is not for me or vice versa.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:34 pm

Yeah I was more so referring to the founding airlines.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Ah_yeah » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:02 am

At the end of the day, why should a pilot offer to work for less at the same company in the face of an unbelievable profit streak and record load factors? These two facts make all other "justifications" total BS. There is no need to over analyze this. Dig in, defend your work and remember, you didn't start this fight.
Meanwhile,I'm reasonably confident ACPA will be replaced by ALPA and the nation can get closer to pilot unity in a time when our services are in great demand.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:33 am

I would say no.

Same can be said about all the express carriers having shit entry wages while AC makes record profits. We are after all flying the same passengers, on aircraft that say Air Canada on them and uniforms with the maple leaf plastered all over them. It's only a matter of time until the tides will turn. But according to NCP, ALPA will have to be gone before anything good happens.

I would welcome AC to ALPA with open arms. Hopefully all the 50-60 pluses at Jazz can look past their history with AC and not cause problems with things moving forward as one group. All I ever hear is how hard done by they all were by AC in the 90s and a lot of them still hold big grudges. Especially ex Air Ontario.
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