Swoop pilot hiring.

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Diadem
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:56 pm

Bede wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:00 pm
Diadem,

Why do you feel the need to work for an airline? I like my job, but I have often considered going back and flying 703. Why? because as my children get older, I am noticing more and more how important it is to be home for supper with the family.

Also, you're saying that at Swoop you'd be making more than what you are now. I have a feeling that you're not working for the right outfit. I know in that in Thunder Bay alone, Thunder, Bravo, Ornge, and Northstar all pay more than 1st year Swoop. I'm not sure about Bearskin & Wasaya. There's a lot of great jobs out there these days: Swoop just isn't one of them.
Airlines are where the most money is. I work for one of the higher-paying 704 companies in the country, but I'll never make anywhere near the amount as on a 705 jet. I have no passes, I'm away from home about as much as I would be with an airline, and I don't have nearly as much support as I would in a 705 company. I make more than Swoop's level 1 rate for FO, but I'll top out at about 70% of Swoop's level 1 captain rate. In the long run, it doesn't make sense for me not to keep doing this job when airlines are hiring, even if the best I can do is Swoop.
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atphat
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by atphat » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 pm

Word on the street is ALPA has teeth. Going to get ugly. No one wins. Sure hope WJ management are happy.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by flyinhigh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:12 pm

Diadem wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:56 pm
I make more than Swoop's level 1 rate for FO, but I'll top out at about 70% of Swoop's level 1 captain rate. In the long run, it doesn't make sense for me not to keep doing this job when airlines are hiring, even if the best I can do is Swoop.
So your saying you will make around 65k for one of the best paying 704 gigs in the country.

I got news for you. That is no where near best paying gigs, infact that would be quite low. You make way more than that (about 15-20k more) as a year 1 Encore captain. Oh, I can list numerous 704 gigs that top out well above 80k.
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Last edited by flyinhigh on Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

flyinhigh
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by flyinhigh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:20 pm

Double post
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nohojob
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by nohojob » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:42 pm

You can work for a 705 and be at home for supper every night (ok maybe 1 or 2 overnight per month max)
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WJ200
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by WJ200 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:44 pm

Diadem wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 am
Air.Field wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am
Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas.
This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.
I'll think about you when I talk about Swoop with my 7 year FO the next time I work and talk about how his upgrade is no longer on the horizon due to this decision. I'll think about you when Swoop starts flying and realize that there are still pilots who are willing to advance their own careers to the detriment of others. I'm very sad for all WJ'ers today. This isn't the company I've embraced and fought for for most of my career.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by moe » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:44 pm

+1
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Red1 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:58 pm

It's all so very disappointing, it didn't have to be this way. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail and WestJet pilot will operate WestJet aircraft. Once it goes off the street the genie is out of the bottle, and it will be very hard to put it back in.
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jazzyboy
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by jazzyboy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 pm

I don't post a lot on here, but today this topic hits a lot closer to home for me. I am that 7 year FO at WJ who is eagerly waiting for his upgrade. I can only say that I can echo the words of WJ200....This is a very sad day for us WestJetters, and the whole airline industry in Canada. I am shocked at the direction that WJ management has chosen to go with the implementation of Swoop. Talk about a major hit against your pilots and flight attendants in order to save a few hundred dollars per hour. These are the only 2 employee groups taking the hit....every other group will be "contracted" by WestJet. What a joke.....Lets be honest here, a couple hundred dollars per hour saved by WestJet on the crews is not going to make or break this operation. The pay rates at Swoop are a drop in the bucket when you look at the operating costs per hour on the 737-800 per hour. What is wrong with WestJet WAWCON for Swoop? This is a direct hit towards these 2 groups at WestJet. Is it for certifying? Who knows. But today I am ashamed to be a WestJetter. And I and truly scared for my career at WestJet. One of the reasons that I came to WestJet was because of how the employees were valued and this company was built on trust with them. Heck, it's one of our supposed "values". Not anymore, it has been replaced with corporate greed. There is nothing in place at this moment to stop GS and CB from turning all of WestJet into Swoop. At least the almighty investor will hopefully be impressed. This is going to turn into a nasty battle with ALPA, and it doesn't have to be. There is a reason GS issued the statement that there will be no contract with the pilots in 2018 at WestJet. What an interesting statement when you are supposedly bargaining in good faith?!?
At first I held on to the belief that we as a pilot group can stick together and not allow this to happen. Reading this forum, I see that that will not happen. Everyone will have reasons for "progressing" their careers and accepting what Swoop is offering, and I will never judge a fellow pilot for making the choice that they do for the benefit of them and their family. But I do need to say this though....What is wrong with us here in Canada? There is actually a pilot shortage taking place and here we are at WestJet purposing to massively lower the bar for our profession. GS you cannot compare Swoop to the startup of WestJet, it is very different. This is truly a sad day for being a professional airline pilot in Canada.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mostly Harmless » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:27 pm

I agree with your sentiment. It is a sad day.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by privateer » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:45 pm

Unreal what management pulled today. It is unrealistic to expect a contract for lower wages given the current environment and within the time span WJ had to start up Swoop. GS is right, there won't be a contract in 2018. This puppy is clearly going to arbitration.
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landshark
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by landshark » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:19 pm

Well, this is what no contract for years looks like... Jet Blue use to be one of the airlines that had similar values to WestJet.
https://www.boston.com/culture/travel/2 ... ournal/amp
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by TwotterBerries » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:20 pm

For all those pilots who don't think this affects them. Think Again. Next step will be an application for foreign pilots. If you think GS or now WestJet is beyond this. Think again. GS has proven that stock value and cheap labor will come at all costs. This will trickle down. At a time when the industry is improving wages and conditions. The actions of GS are something we all should be disgusted with. If this happens at WJ. It will occur at your shop down the road.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by TwotterBerries » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:13 pm

For those pilots who don't believe this affects them. You may want to think again. GS and and company have proven that they will not stop at anything to drive wages down. They have crossed a line today and when they cannot find enough pilots to fly at Swoop . Wages will not rise at swoop. GS will petition the government for foreign pilots. If he hasn't done already. This will affect us all. Don't underestimate what GS will try. When a CEO promises lower wages all will turn a blind eye in the public and government. So Who will stand up for pilots if not pilots themselves?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by RB211 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:38 am

...Everyone will have reasons for "progressing" their careers and accepting what Swoop is offering, and I will never judge a fellow pilot for making the choice that they do for the benefit of them and their family...
Fully agree. I find it absurd that pilots want to blacklist others that don't sacrifice their own career opportunities for the sake of others. Other pilots they may well not even know. If you ask and expect such a commitment, what support/benefit will be extended to those making the sacrifice.

In this case, I would ask, what sacrifice will senior pilots at WJ make to help the career progression of a 7 year FO like jazzyboy? Will you retire early to make room for their upgrade?

Can those asking for such support honestly look back on their own career choices and say the decisions they made always considered the greater industry ahead of their own wellbeing?

The industry is in the state it is in due primarily to airline management. That is who the fight is with if there is an enemy. Expecting others to carry that fight for you, likely to their own detriment, is unreasonable. If Swoop happens, as it seems it will, the WJ pilots have to admit they were out flanked by their management. Dust yourselves off, regroup and find a workable strategy to address the issues.

You're not the first group to be screwed by this industry and, sadly, not likely the last.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by yyc757 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:50 am

I feel betrayed.

Why would anyone take one of these jobs?

I took this job on the basis of trust and goodwill and based on pireps from friends. There is no trust. There is no goodwill. There is no integrity. After close to 8 years senior management decided the relationship between myself and WestJet didn't matter. They suddenly threw out my years of hard work, dedication, loyalty and professionalism. It literally doesn't matter that I prevented crashes and death from happening. All the red eyes and early morning Halifax departures don't matter. The times where I pushed through long days of demanding conditions with MELs, bad weather, slippery runways, extended duty days...all a wash. All the frantic grooming between tight turn arounds in order to get back to sched all for not. The crappy pay and paying my dues yet again.... worthless.

I feel betrayed.

For anyone considering Swoop consider this. I trusted them and this is what happened. Do you think you can trust them?

For diadem I hope you hear this. (Unless you are mister multiple personality NCP or John wing suit airspeed indicator trying to manipulate folks with your pathetic attempts of psychology with that shallow perspective on fear and greed then wallow in your hevel) yes... hevel.
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mel gibson
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by mel gibson » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:22 am

Pilot Recruitment Team
Air Canada
P.O. Box 6002
Pearson International Airport
Toronto AMF, ON
L5P 1B4
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by telex » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:33 am

yyc757 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:50 am
I feel betrayed.

Why would anyone take one of these jobs?

I took this job on the basis of trust and goodwill and based on pireps from friends. There is no trust. There is no goodwill. There is no integrity. After close to 8 years senior management decided the relationship between myself and WestJet didn't matter. They suddenly threw out my years of hard work, dedication, loyalty and professionalism. It literally doesn't matter that I prevented crashes and death from happening. All the red eyes and early morning Halifax departures don't matter. The times where I pushed through long days of demanding conditions with MELs, bad weather, slippery runways, extended duty days...all a wash. All the frantic grooming between tight turn arounds in order to get back to sched all for not. The crappy pay and paying my dues yet again.... worthless.

I feel betrayed.

For anyone considering Swoop consider this. I trusted them and this is what happened. Do you think you can trust them?

For diadem I hope you hear this. (Unless you are mister multiple personality NCP or John wing suit airspeed indicator trying to manipulate folks with your pathetic attempts of psychology with that shallow perspective on fear and greed then wallow in your hevel) yes... hevel.
You actually believed your employer had your best interests in mind?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by TheStig » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:48 am

jazzyboy wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 pm
I don't post a lot on here, but today this topic hits a lot closer to home for me. I am that 7 year FO at WJ who is eagerly waiting for his upgrade. I can only say that I can echo the words of WJ200....This is a very sad day for us WestJetters, and the whole airline industry in Canada. I am shocked at the direction that WJ management has chosen to go with the implementation of Swoop. Talk about a major hit against your pilots and flight attendants in order to save a few hundred dollars per hour. These are the only 2 employee groups taking the hit....every other group will be "contracted" by WestJet. What a joke.....Lets be honest here, a couple hundred dollars per hour saved by WestJet on the crews is not going to make or break this operation.

I can't believe that things have gone this direction at WJ, I've always been envious of the relationship pilot shared with their management and executives (up until the GS era). My friends on the teal team would just shake their heads in disbelief as I described memos that were issued, disciplinary actions and the events that led up to FOS.

Westjet pilots deserve better than this. This isn't happening because you've voted to unionize, this why it's so important you did. I hope you're receiving updates from your representatives to stay informed and unified.

I believe pilots are easy targets because of our tendency to put our company and passengers (aka guests, no need for google translate:) needs above our own. We're all hard working and take satisfaction in doing our jobs well. Take it from someone who has been down this path, I wouldn't be so worried about future Swoop pilots undermining your future right now as your current colleagues. Stay together on this one, you deserve better than the hand you've been dealt, not concessions to keep what already is yours.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Ah_yeah » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:03 am

Agreed with The Stig. Been down this road on the Red side. Stick together...never fracture. If GS wants to jeopardize a great operation that rewards shareholders well for the sake of a dubious business plan, his job is more at risk than yours. You guys are longer term stakeholders than he is. Best of luck to my professional peers at WJA.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by 47north » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:13 am

yyc757 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:50 am

The times where I pushed through long days of demanding conditions with MELs, bad weather, slippery runways, extended duty days...all a wash. All the frantic grooming between tight turn arounds in order to get back to sched all for not.
It always amazes me that the bean counters can't grasp the fact that pilots are integral in operating efficiently. Think of all the ways a pilot can influence the operations. Low drag approaches - yeah I think I'll put put full flap on every landing and 10-15 miles back just to be safe. Single-engine taxi - not for me thanks, too much work. Kind of bumpy at FL350, think I'll pick FL250 today. That approach looked unstable to me, I think we should go around and try it again. Max braking - absolutely and I like to ride those brakes and apply them often to keep them warm. That complicated MEL, it's gonna take me a lot of time to figure that one out - sorry about the missed connections. This list goes on...

Any perceived savings at Scoop can be easily offset by a less 'motivated' group at WestJet. Better for everyone to work together. Westjet seems to have lost their way on valuing and engaging their employees and it will be to the detriment of the entire corporation. I don't think I would be buying shares anytime soon.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by RB211 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:32 am

47north wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:13 am
yyc757 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:50 am

The times where I pushed through long days of demanding conditions with MELs, bad weather, slippery runways, extended duty days...all a wash. All the frantic grooming between tight turn arounds in order to get back to sched all for not.
It always amazes me that the bean counters can't grasp the fact that pilots are integral in operating efficiently. Think of all the ways a pilot can influence the operations. Low drag approaches - yeah I think I'll put put full flap on every landing and 10-15 miles back just to be safe. Single-engine taxi - not for me thanks, too much work. Kind of bumpy at FL350, think I'll pick FL250 today. That approach looked unstable to me, I think we should go around and try it again. Max braking - absolutely and I like to ride those brakes and apply them often to keep them warm. That complicated MEL, it's gonna take me a lot of time to figure that one out - sorry about the missed connections. This list goes on...

Any perceived savings at Scoop can be easily offset by a less 'motivated' group at WestJet. Better for everyone to work together. Westjet seems to have lost their way on valuing and engaging their employees and it will be to the detriment of the entire corporation. I don't think I would be buying shares anytime soon.
I think you answered your initial question/statement with 'bean counters'. They can only see what is on a spreadsheet. They have shown a distinct inability to value the intangibles. In this industry and others.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Jimmy2 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:57 am

I don't think sabotaging your own company is the right plan. Is there anything stopping them from moving the entire operation to Swoop? I'd be trying to prove there is still a reason for them to keep Westjet around.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by infiniteregulus » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:02 am

Unfortunately many employed there have vested interest in the company's performance, a la stocks. Not sure if kiboshing performance metrics in the interest of a political statement will be a thing. Doubt many Westjetters feel like "owners" anymore :roll: . Trust in business is a curiously fickle and interesting concept and business is much like war in that it can be ruthless with sacrifices and aims to achieve an ultimate supreme goal - money. Even the most philanthropic manager or CEO will not put an employee above a company unless it will directly feed into the corporate success. Companies are NOT in business to provide a workplace for people. They are in business to make money and that's the bottom line. Finding the right balance between corporate growth and employee relations, all the while maintaining a level of ethical practice however, is the key to any successful CEO. But trust me in saying that NEVER should the words of a corporation be taken in faith without questioning the underlying motive. As Sun Tzu is quoted from the Art of War, "All war is deception".
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:35 am

Any perceived savings at Scoop can be easily offset by a less 'motivated' group at WestJet.
Good point - totally true.
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