Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[Mostly Harmless]

.....who could care less about... ethics

Well, at least you're honest.

[saltypilot]

So, to get back on thread track.

I beieve that others like myself, who have maybe 10-15 years left till 65, have made a comfortable nest egg and would like a challenge to mentor/train a new cadre of engaged, keen employees willing to accept the risk in starting up a model that is provocative, and will change the landscape is going to be a primary motivator. Personally, I have no interest in returning overseas, and many of my colleagues, as myself, are looking at Swoop as an ideal "final approach" to end their careers. Certainly no shortage of qualified airmen available to get this thing up and running.....who could care less about blacklists, fear-mongering, ethics and character tsk-tsk's, Westjet/AC hiring boards and the ilk. If GS/CB are clear who will crew THEIR aircraft, then best to lets enage in at least a tolerated synergy to feed the machine.

Well I for one have a keen interest in you and your sunset crew returning overseas.

That was the largest pile of word soup I’ve seen in a while and it rivals NCP’s posts.

However, if you’re set in your course, I have a sneaking suspicion that you’re a shoe-in for the Manager of Training/Standards position they’re looking for. Just show them your mind bending Swoopy post above...I’m sure they’ll hire you on the spot.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Good god man, are you not listening? WestJet is a ball-breaking company to work for. They push the envelope of what is legally allowed in terms of scheduling, duty day, min rest, and fatigue on a daily basis. Management pilots don’t experience the fatigue on a regular basis so they think it is acceptable. It is not... it is unsustainable. But then again, we’ve all been saying that for years and little has changed.

Now you want to come to work for that same management team that is tone-deaf to its pilots and their very real & very serious fatigue concerns and do it for 40% less pay???

If you are in your mid to late 50’s, as you seem to be alluding to, then I wish you the best of luck. Pilots half your age have found it unsustainable and have either left or been forced into short-term disability due to the scheduling. That Short-Term disability benefit, by the way, is a mandatory payroll deduction at WestJet along with Long-term disability premiums. In fact, WJ have so many pilots on short term disability that the (mandatory) payroll deduction for premiums is close to $10,000 annually in pre-tax dollars for many of their captains.
Oh, and that Long-term disability plan that costs the pilots an arm & a leg every payday... well, WJ just arbitrarily fired a handful of pilots that were on LTD so ... I’m not sure exactly who is going to be brave enough to file a claim these days. Guess it’s pretty much useless now.

Don’t worry though... I’m sure Swoop will have a top-notch benefits plan and much better scheduling than WestJet.

Do yourself a favour: if you really do have 10-15 years left to retirement and a nice nest-egg, then find yourself a nice corporate job. You will probably make more money, have a better lifestyle, be home more often, and live a longer, healthier life. You’ll also have the added benefit of not undercutting your colleagues by flying their own equipment for almost half price.

It took WJ 22 years to collaboratively negotiate the working conditions that exist today. Those conditions along with Air Canada’s WAWCON set the bar for airline WAWCON in Canada. Gregg Saretsky and people like you are going to undo 22 years of progress in one fell Swoop. No pun intended.

[Lateralus]

So, to get back on thread track.

I beieve that others like myself, who have maybe 10-15 years left till 65, have made a comfortable nest egg and would like a challenge to mentor/train a new cadre of engaged, keen employees willing to accept the risk in starting up a model that is provocative, and will change the landscape is going to be a primary motivator. Personally, I have no interest in returning overseas, and many of my colleagues, as myself, are looking at Swoop as an ideal "final approach" to end their careers. Certainly no shortage of qualified airmen available to get this thing up and running.....who could care less about blacklists, fear-mongering, ethics and character tsk-tsk's, Westjet/AC hiring boards and the ilk. If GS/CB are clear who will crew THEIR aircraft, then best to lets enage in at least a tolerated synergy to feed the machine.

Disgusting. Do us all a favour and go back overseas.

[Dry Guy]

If Swoop doesn't have this disability scheme could the take home pay actually be more on par with mainline?

[mmm..bacon]

A chance at this is why one would choose to go to Swoop: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=122225&sid=2c9b1451 ... 967c9a16c5

[Dry Guy]

Wow, to NET that much in Ontario your salary would have to be $802000.

[Donald]

A chance at this is why one would choose to go to Swoop: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=122225&sid=2c9b1451 ... 967c9a16c5

Ironically enough, Jangxi Air is considered a Chinese low-cost carrier.

[complexintentions]

Good god man, are you not listening? WestJet is a ball-breaking company to work for. They push the envelope of what is legally allowed in terms of scheduling, duty day, min rest, and fatigue on a daily basis. Management pilots don’t experience the fatigue on a regular basis so they think it is acceptable. It is not... it is unsustainable. But then again, we’ve all been saying that for years and little has changed.

Now you want to come to work for that same management team that is tone-deaf to its pilots and their very real & very serious fatigue concerns and do it for 40% less pay???

If you are in your mid to late 50’s, as you seem to be alluding to, then I wish you the best of luck. Pilots half your age have found it unsustainable and have either left or been forced into short-term disability due to the scheduling. That Short-Term disability benefit, by the way, is a mandatory payroll deduction at WestJet along with Long-term disability premiums. In fact, WJ have so many pilots on short term disability that the (mandatory) payroll deduction for premiums is close to $10,000 annually in pre-tax dollars for many of their captains.
Oh, and that Long-term disability plan that costs the pilots an arm & a leg every payday... well, WJ just arbitrarily fired a handful of pilots that were on LTD so ... I’m not sure exactly who is going to be brave enough to file a claim these days. Guess it’s pretty much useless now.

Don’t worry though... I’m sure Swoop will have a top-notch benefits plan and much better scheduling than WestJet.

Do yourself a favour: if you really do have 10-15 years left to retirement and a nice nest-egg, then find yourself a nice corporate job. You will probably make more money, have a better lifestyle, be home more often, and live a longer, healthier life. You’ll also have the added benefit of not undercutting your colleagues by flying their own equipment for almost half price.

It took WJ 22 years to collaboratively negotiate the working conditions that exist today. Those conditions along with Air Canada’s WAWCON set the bar for airline WAWCON in Canada. Gregg Saretsky and people like you are going to undo 22 years of progress in one fell Swoop. No pun intended.

So "it took WJ 22 years to negotiate the working conditions that exist today" but the working conditions that exist today are "ball-breaking", "push the envelope", and "unsustainable"...yet "set the bar for WAWCON in Canada"?

Good God man, try to make a coherent argument at least. You make it sound like it couldn't possibly be any worse at Swoop that it already is at WJ, so how are you talking someone wanting a NG type and a potential faster command out of going there? And what's happened to all the happy Tealy-faces?

There is no way in hell anything or anyone in Canada is going to scare someone who's spent time working in the Middle East. (With the exception of Canadian taxes, weather and mindset! ) Returning expats don't need the big money or command, they got that overseas. Swoop - as stated by B73ABC - could be an ideal place to contribute and make a little money flying until retirement. Just a fact. It's not for me but when people try to warn me away from a job because they feel I should do so to help protects theirs, it makes me idly consider it.

They will have no problem crewing their aircraft and playing the union tough guy only serves to amuse those who survived and thrived for years in places where unions are illegal. I get why you're afraid of Swoop - you should be. But attacking other pilots is missing the big picture entirely.

Incidentally, overseas wages are taxed in the tax year earned, based on where you live. They aren't subject to Canadian tax when returning. Assuming you've properly severed your residential ties in your old jurisdiction and established genuine residential ties to your new one, you are taxed based on your residency. In the case of the UAE the personal income tax rate is zero, so that is your rate. Only the US and Eritrea tax income based on citizenship versus residency.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Fact: It took WJ Pilots 22 years to negotiate today’s WAWCON
Fact: WJ management have continued to exploit loopholes & goodwill of their pilots to allow the scheduling to deteriorate significantly
Fact: While the working conditions portion of WAWCON has suffered dramatically, the wages portion has increased to the point where, yes, it does set the bar for narrow-body Pay in Canada.
Fact: Gregg Saretsky is on record saying Swoop pilots will work harder for much less money

The worst part of WJ WAWCON is the scheduling. The best part is that - after 22 years - they have managed to negotiate 737 pay that respectable.
You have an airline starting up promising to make the worst part of WJ even worse, and take the best part of WJ and drag it all the way back to 1996. Please explain to me why my argument is “incoherent”.

I can see why management have an interest in pushing their Walmart-capitalist agendas. But my question is why would any professional, self-respecting pilot who has all the facts want to subject themselves to that and become complicit in lowering the bar for their profession?

[HansDietrich]

The same tune is being played over and over again.
Pilot one: Why are you accepting low wages that drag the industry and the rest of us down?
Pilot two: Because I can't get a job anywhere else.

It's hard to be moral when your choices are few and far between. Nobody is "moral" in this industry:
- Not the rampie that deals with abuse from his redneck boss (ei: "Animal Joe" in the North)
- Not the 703 F/O working for 25K a year flying medevacs in the Arctic, doing 14 hour duty days every day.
- Not the regional F/O flying an RJ for 39K a year and not the Q400 capt making 74K a year
- Not A320 F/O or 767 F/O making 50K a year
- Certainly not the Swoop 737 F.O. or captain.

So you see, everyone here is to blame. It's the "best time" in aviation to get a job, yet we're all willing to work for peanuts; at every level.

[x-wind]

oops

[BE20 Driver]

And what's happened to all the happy Tealy-faces?

The only Tealy-faces are in management these days. Oh, an Captain Wing Nut (but I think that's from hypoxia.)

when people try to warn me away from a job because they feel I should do so to help protects theirs, it makes me idly consider it.

Pilot 1:You shouldn't take this job?
Pilot 2: Why?
Pilot 1: It risks lowering my wages down the road. Eventually yours too if you last the 27 years required to get to my pay step. You should not take this job so you can get my salary in 30 years.
Pilot 2: It's a raise and better WAWCON than I have now. The music is playing and it's a chance to move up.
Pilot 1: Me, me, me. It's all about me. and three decades later, you.

But attacking other pilots is missing the big picture entirely.

Everyone who has applied has a reason to consider it.

...
Pilot two: Because I can't get a job anywhere else.

It's hard to be moral when your choices are few and far between. Nobody is "moral" in this industry:
- Not the rampie that deals with abuse from his redneck boss (ei: "Animal Joe" in the North)
- Not the 703 F/O working for 25K a year flying medevacs in the Arctic, doing 14 hour duty days every day.
- Not the regional F/O flying an RJ for 39K a year and not the Q400 capt making 74K a year
- Not A320 F/O or 767 F/O making 50K a year
- Certainly not the Swoop 737 F.O. or captain.

That's right. Some people know WS isn't for them. Some can't get into Big Red because they aren't french speaking little-people with advanced degrees in Theater Arts, minoring in ancient Helenic.
Once you eliminate WS and AC, that leaves Transat, Sunwing, SkyRegional, Flair and Swoop. None of which are very big, none offer great packages. Not all of them have stable finances behind them. Some are lifestyle choices. Most are stepping stones to quick command and work elsewhere.

[Liftdump]

Dear OCP,you don’t just come back to Canada and find yourself A NICE CORPORATE JOB
that is not how it works. Just saying

[sportingrifle]

"This is where I stopped reading.

Here's what I have to say to those Air Canada pilots. The day you vote in your contract to have us "Regional guys "move over to Air Canada without an interview, jumping through hoops etc. is the day I'm going to give a f*ck about your moral high-ground!

End rant!

Good evening!"

Hans,

Just to be historically accurate, at one point in time that option was available and the Regional pilots turned it down. Water under the bridge now.

sportingrifle.

[B73ABC]

I get it guys/girls. I honestly do. And for those that assume I'm out to lunch with reality, well....that goes both ways. It could be argued successfully that your group has.....unwittingly, or not...outmaneuvered itself, and the bag of teal-coloured doo-doo you're potentially going to hold comes as a shock.
Here's the thing though, every single one of you made the choice to join WS when you did for your own personal reasons...as I will make a choice. The fact that global market forces and trends are changing in aviation, among other industry sectors, and your reluctance to embrace it ("Oh our employer wants to start up a defensive deterrent...but by golly it better be with our WACONS") demonstrates a complete lack awareness of your environment. You honestly think union brotherhood and all that hardcore rhetoric from the Eastern, Pan Am, TWA days exist in reality? The industry is changing WestJet people, and your sanctimonious and morally pristine preaching about why I shouldn't work for Swoop is amusing.

I was practically forced, after 9/11 to take my skill-set overseas and keep my family fed and clothed. Sure, I could have stayed home & driven a trailer or worked at Home Depot. Options, right?
Now, myself and several others have an opportunity to return on our own terms. Tell you what....lets trade!! I'll swap my DXB A380 Captain job for a YYZ-based 737 Captain job right now. I'm going to bet I wouldn't get much takers. Why? Choices and options. So here's the thing. I wish you all the best as a group in negotiating the best package for yourselves and your future. As for me, I will make the choice that best suits my family and their future...and mildy resent the campaign of public shaming you've stooped to. I'll be passing a few of you in a terminal in a few short months and hopefully we can be civil.

[Anon1234]

This thread has made me realize we're all a hopeless barrel of monkeys

[RidersRule]

I'll be passing a few of you in a terminal in a few short months and hopefully we can be civil.

Don't count on it. Sorry

[Oldcommercialpilot]

I'll be passing a few of you in a terminal in a few short months and hopefully we can be civil.

If you’re wearing anything pink on your uniform you will get no civility from me. You may be a fellow aviator but you are nothing more than a scab. You’ll be sending a message to the Canadian aviation community that you are knowingly taking jobs & upgrades away from colleagues because you are willing to whore yourself out for 1/2 price to jump the queue. Bravo.

Where do you think those Swoop aircraft are coming from? That’s right, WestJet. So, it’s not like you’ll just be flying the same type, you’ll be flying ACTUAL WestJet tails with the teal crossed out and a big pink Swoop logo slapped over top. Same airplanes, same routes, same maintenance, same managers. Just a different name so that they can re-hire their labour at half price. If knowing all that doesn’t cause you to lose some self-respect then, have at her.

If you are an A380 Captain coming here from Dubai, I hate to say it, but you will stand out like a sore thumb. It will be you and a bunch of 20-something pimple-faced 2000 hour wonders looking for quick upgrades and get out as quickly as they can. Gregg is betting on this pilot shortage to produce a constant turnover of young, semi-experienced pilots that are willing to work for peanuts for the prospect of flying a shiny new jet.

[Anon1234]

I get it guys/girls. I honestly do. And for those that assume I'm out to lunch with reality, well....that goes both ways. It could be argued successfully that your group has.....unwittingly, or not...outmaneuvered itself, and the bag of teal-coloured doo-doo you're potentially going to hold comes as a shock.
Here's the thing though, every single one of you made the choice to join WS when you did for your own personal reasons...as I will make a choice. The fact that global market forces and trends are changing in aviation, among other industry sectors, and your reluctance to embrace it ("Oh our employer wants to start up a defensive deterrent...but by golly it better be with our WACONS") demonstrates a complete lack awareness of your environment. You honestly think union brotherhood and all that hardcore rhetoric from the Eastern, Pan Am, TWA days exist in reality? The industry is changing WestJet people, and your sanctimonious and morally pristine preaching about why I shouldn't work for Swoop is amusing.

I was practically forced, after 9/11 to take my skill-set overseas and keep my family fed and clothed. Sure, I could have stayed home & driven a trailer or worked at Home Depot. Options, right?
Now, myself and several others have an opportunity to return on our own terms. Tell you what....lets trade!! I'll swap my DXB A380 Captain job for a YYZ-based 737 Captain job right now. I'm going to bet I wouldn't get much takers. Why? Choices and options. So here's the thing. I wish you all the best as a group in negotiating the best package for yourselves and your future. As for me, I will make the choice that best suits my family and their future...and mildy resent the campaign of public shaming you've stooped to. I'll be passing a few of you in a terminal in a few short months and hopefully we can be civil.

So why not come back join a respectable 703 like Thunder or something and have an enjoyable sunset to your career OR spend the rest of your career resented by your peers. You do you.